[Iyaoyas]

I think I posted this information in the wrong spot so please forgive me for double posting. I am adopting a 6 month old weimaraner puppy from a local SPCA and aside from the interaction the dog has had with the people at the shelter in the last week, it has had zero human interaction. The SPCA workers found the dogs in an abandoned farm house with the father the mother and 3 puppies and according to the report the dogs were "wild", unfortunately the father dog presumably attacked one of the kennel workers causing it to be put down and they now have the mother and 2 of the puppies have already been adopted out, well with the remaining puppy whom I am adopting is not so much skittish she comes to the gate excitedly and is a sweet lover licking your hand until it's dripping but when taken out of the kennel with it's mother it doesn't move,doesn't walk on a leash,does nothing but as soon as it is placed back in the kennel with it's mother it
becomes loving playful and a typical goofy weim pup, the problem is I cannot
take the mother from the shelter also and I can not find in any of my
weim books that addresses an issue such as this and I want the best
life possible for my newest family member. When the dog was seperated for roughly 15-20 minutes it did start to be slightly affectionate but had no response to the collar or leash placed on it, it did however lay it's head in my hand and roll over in a submissive position and I proceeded to rub it's belly and give it treats and plenty of love. However the dog would not budge from it's spot to come and get a treat or to get our attention at all just sat there even after another 20 minutes or so, it did not stand up but would allow me to carry it anywhere never snipped growled or raised it's fur at any time, please any help would be greatly appreciated.

Yours Truly,
Josh

[Dogstar]

Have you owned dogs previously? I'll be honest, this is a MAJOR project to take on for a first dog?

Secondly, do you have a fenced backyard? For unsocialized dogs who have missed the critical socialization periods, my experience is that leashes = scary dog eating things that need to be introduced slowly. If you've got the ability to allow her to do her potty breaks and some exercise off-leash in a confined area, that's a big plus.

Allowing you to carry her may or may not have been a good sign- I'd lean towards good, but it depends a lot on the body language, and to really suceed with this ogis going to take a lot of ability to READ body language on your part. Not snipping or hackling can be acceptance- or it can be shutdown. This dog really, really needs someone very experienced. I would contact a local behaviorist- a good one, who uses positive methods only to deal with fearful dogs, no flooding or harsh techniques- and have her or him evaluate the dog with you and, if you decide to go forward, work out a training plan for you to follow from day one.

One thing is going to be important and that is not letting the dog gt away with bad behavior and form bad habits (since she's a puppy) but also not traumatizing her by correcting her harshly. If you've had dogs in the past, how successful were you in managing their environment so they never got a chance to do anything bad like chew, steal items like shoes to gnaw on, countersurf, or stuff like that? Will everyoe in the family be able to respect the dog's limits and be willing to let her come around in her own time, or will some family members try and FORCE her to be affectionate right away in the misguided thinking that if she survives it once, she'll understand it's not so scary? Will the entire family be able to be patient with her while you're working on her fear issues, or will individual members of your family insist on dealing with her by yelling or yanking on her for misbehavior? Even seriously frustrating misbehavior (for example, stealing a steak off the conter) will need to be dealt with very calmly and quietly- and realistically,t hat's going to be hard for some individuals. (This isn't to say that they'd EVER hurt a dog, but loud voices and leaning over to scold can be a major setbac to this kind of problem. She needs to have 100% positive experiences with people as much as possible right now and for the next 8-12 months.)

I'm not trying to discourage you- the most fearful dog I've ever worked with was Skye, a rough collie, who is a gem and honestly one of the most lovely dogs I've ever been lucky enough to know and work with. But he took almot TWO YEARS before he would voluntarily come up to strangers, including family members who weren't around daily but visited frequently. But this dog is going to be a major, major commitment and you owe it to her to think it through very throughly. Humans have already failed her once, and she doesn't deserve to have it happen again.

[TooneyDogs]

You might want to pick up the 1st book published by The Monks of New Skeete - The Art of Raising a Puppy. One section of the book talks briefly about the lack of socialization that was observed in a pack of feral puppies and the resulting inability to bond with humans. The lack of socialization can be overcome to some extent with behavior modification techniques but, the dogs usually remain aloof or very reserved their entire life.
On the other hand, there are a few cases of severely neglected dogs who had very minimal human contact most of their life but, they turned out to be wonderful, loving dogs. One such dog was chained to a tree for 2 years...was rescued and went on to become one of the top obedience dogs in the country.

[Iyaoyas]

Yes I have owned dogs in my life I currently have a daschund who is going on 14 and I raised akita's for about 5 years previously, I do have a fenced in backyard 6 foot wooden with a lockable gate around my whole perimiter. As far as the carrying thing she was giving kisses on the way back but not on the first introduction, as far as ppl in the house there is only me and girlfriend who is a 10 year pet nurse and we both have set down some very very limited ground rules for the dog but no screaming no yelling but plenty of positive reinforcement like if she grabs a steak off the counter then she won't get praised but more like lured away from the steak with something that seems like more fun than chewing up that nasty old steak...as far as managing the envirnment we've spent the last 3 weeks puppy proofing the house I installed cabinet locks on all the kitchen cabinets and getting into the habit of closing closet doors little plastic covers on all the electrical outlets taping cords to the floor so on and so forth I understand it's a large commitment. I have looked for a behavioral trainer and unfortunately all I have found in my area aside from the petsmart schmucks at the local store (dunno if all are morons so pls don't get offended but these 2 are blubbering idiots) was one trainer who said the sessions start at $150 an hour and frankly I don't have that kinda dough layin around.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Iyaoyas

Yes I have owned dogs in my life I currently have a daschund who is going on 14 and I raised akita's for about 5 years previously, I do have a fenced in backyard 6 foot wooden with a lockable gate around my whole perimiter. As far as the carrying thing she was giving kisses on the way back but not on the first introduction, as far as ppl in the house there is only me and girlfriend who is a 10 year pet nurse and we both have set down some very very limited ground rules for the dog but no screaming no yelling but plenty of positive reinforcement like if she grabs a steak off the counter then she won't get praised but more like lured away from the steak with something that seems like more fun than chewing up that nasty old steak...as far as managing the envirnment we've spent the last 3 weeks puppy proofing the house I installed cabinet locks on all the kitchen cabinets and getting into the habit of closing closet doors little plastic covers on all the electrical outlets taping cords to the floor so on and so forth I understand it's a large commitment. I have looked for a behavioral trainer and unfortunately all I have found in my area aside from the petsmart schmucks at the local store (dunno if all are morons so pls don't get offended but these 2 are blubbering idiots) was one trainer who said the sessions start at $150 an hour and frankly I don't have that kinda dough layin around.

I would 1st purchase something called a Martingale collar from PetsMart This is a collar that is adjustable so that when dog pulls on it it will close to the neck, but with the proper adjustment will not choke but dog also cannot get out of it. It's a combo chain/nylon non buckle affair. This is important, I think because you obviously do not want dog to get loose and it is a very humane collar. A start towards later work. Now a long 15 ft lead or over can be used. One end tied to fence or post, dog obviously on other end. Now patience is needed.
I like clipping a non leash broke dog to fence etc because if there is fighting of lead etc I am there to soothe the pup as necessary. I like the idea that pup is not fighting me but the fence.
Ok, we have a humane collar, we have support(you) This is just a very small step to maybe start you on stuff if you cannot get qualified help. Obviously when you clip dog to fence as you stated probably not going to move that's where patience comes in. Any work done is done in short intervals as we do not want pup overloaded if he does get to the fighting lead area. Actually after the initial fence fighting he can be unclipped and start just dragging long lead. PLEASE REMEMBER THIS METHOD IS FROM SOMEBODY THAT DOES NOT KNOW OR CANNOT SEE THE DOG'S REACTION TO THIS. People write all the time about getting a qualified behaviorist, but either there are none or they want an arm and leg to do the work. You should have had the 150.00 an hour trainer arrested. He/she was trying to rob you just not using a gun. Only reason I am writing this is nobody has seemed to come up with any type of work that you could try. I am sure there will be some interesting replies coming now.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Iyaoyas

When the dog was seperated for roughly 15-20 minutes it did start to be slightly affectionate but had no response to the collar or leash placed on it, it did however lay it's head in my hand and roll over in a submissive position and I proceeded to rub it's belly and give it treats and plenty of love.

When you say the dog had no response to the collar and leash, what do you mean? Are you saying the dog froze when presented with the collar or leash, or did he no comply with being on lead? I would avoid praising the dog for being submissive. I would reserve all physical praise for when the dog is lying on a specific mat. The mat you’ll want him to relax on. Otherwise, if you’re trying to work with him, he may offer submissive behaviors exclusively.

However the dog would not budge from it's spot to come and get a treat or to get our attention at all just sat there even after another 20 minutes or so, it did not stand up but would allow me to carry it anywhere never snipped growled or raised it's fur at any time, please any help would be greatly appreciated.

What were you doing during this 30 minute period? Just standing and calling the dog? Enticing the dog with food or toys? Moving around and acting goofy? Did he still have the collar and leash on at this point? If the dog was in shock, there was probably nothing you could have done but return him to a comfortable environment.

Yes I have owned dogs in my life I currently have a daschund who is going on 14 and I raised akita's for about 5 years previously, I do have a fenced in backyard 6 foot wooden with a lockable gate around my whole perimiter.

Has the new dog been introduced to the elder? Do they get along? Are you able to cue behaviors with the dach when the new dog is in the same room?

I have looked for a behavioral trainer and unfortunately all I have found in my area aside from the petsmart schmucks at the local store (dunno if all are morons so pls don't get offended but these 2 are blubbering idiots) was one trainer who said the sessions start at $150 an hour and frankly I don't have that kinda dough layin around.

Where did you find this trainer? Were they certified? Was it $150/hr? Or $150 for a series of sessions?

Originally Posted by Wvasko

People write all the time about getting a qualified behaviorist, but either there are none or they want an arm and leg to do the work. You should have had the 150.00 an hour trainer arrested. He/she was trying to rob you just not using a gun.

Although I would agree $150/hr sounds steep, it may not be robbery at all. I know trainers who ask for too much, initially, so they can understand the owner’s commitment, only to charge them less or offer free lessons later when they know the client will comply with the trainer’s protocol. Effective training starts and ends with owner compliance. So I wouldn’t be so quick in judging this trainer, perhaps they have more to offer than the common trainer. Plus, we all know the principles of supply/demand drive cost too. Finding a qualified trainer is much like finding a reputable breeder…there’s more homework involved than looking at price alone.

I am sure there will be some interesting replies coming now.

There’s an amusing bowling commercial that runs Sunday’s on ESPN (no, I don’t watch bowling, I just happen to catch it after NFL Gameday, lol). Anyway, the subject of the ad is a bowler who wears sunglasses. In a soliloquy he says something to the effect of, People often ask me why I wear sunglasses when I bowl. I tell them, you don’t hear me asking why you wear khakis and a polo shirt to work, do you?

[Dogstar]

I think the method of tehtering a dog to something is not an acceptable one for fearful dogs. I think it's GREAT for committed pullers (I play 'hot and cold' with really bad pullers tethered to something- moving towards them when they've got slack in the lead and stopping and then moving back when they pull- it's the inverse of 'penalty yards' and easier for some clients who are physically fragile to do) But it's a form of flooding, which frankly, is a last resort form of resolving a fear issue, IMO, and particularly for a dog who is undersocialized versus just fearful, I think it could have a LOT of fallout.

$150 an hour is high unless you're talking about a veterinary behaviorist (with a DVM degree and specialty in behavior.) and you really need a good trainer, not just a behaviorist. Have you checked the ADPT, IAABC, and CDPT listings for your area? That might be another place to start. There's a LOT of good trainers out there who aren't certified and don't call themselves behaviorists- but you'll have to sort through a LOT more unqualified people to find the good ones.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Dogstar

I think the method of tehtering a dog to something is not an acceptable one for fearful dogs. I think it's GREAT for committed pullers (I play 'hot and cold' with really bad pullers tethered to something- moving towards them when they've got slack in the lead and stopping and then moving back when they pull- it's the inverse of 'penalty yards' and easier for some clients who are physically fragile to do) But it's a form of flooding, which frankly, is a last resort form of resolving a fear issue, IMO, and particularly for a dog who is undersocialized versus just fearful, I think it could have a LOT of fallout.

$150 an hour is high unless you're talking about a veterinary behaviorist (with a DVM degree and specialty in behavior.) and you really need a good trainer, not just a behaviorist. Have you checked the ADPT, IAABC, and CDPT listings for your area? That might be another place to start. There's a LOT of good trainers out there who aren't certified and don't call themselves behaviorists- but you'll have to sort through a LOT more unqualified people to find the good ones.

Dogstar, I agree with your reply, but they have to start somewhere and with their 1st reply about puppy proofing home etc. I believed they would be careful about adverse effects. You have to start somewhere to see what kind of reaction you get from the pup. You have to get an action so you can adjust with a reaction. Scenario being pup that doesn't walk etc placed on ground tethered (again with proper non choke collar) gives you a safety type program while sitting on ground with pup. Should the pup come out of the lay down doldrums possibly panic and bolt. The last thing wanted would be a spooked pup that somehow manages to escape.
Prophet
I once had a customer who talked to a trainer who said she would train his dog in a week for 1000.00, I told customer he could send me there for a week and I could not learn enough to make that kind of payment worthwhile. (of course I'm not the brightest bulb in the box) I'm familiar with the term what the market will bear, also the term a fool and his money are soon parted.

[Iyaoyas]

[b]Curbside Prophet[b]As far as the trainer's price; the price quoted from a behaviorlist was 4 sessions of 1 hour each once a week over a 1 month time frame was $600,that breaks down to $150 an hour in my book and unfortunately I have not brought the dog home yet I am going to get her this friday I was just trying to get setup in order to do what was needed,plan ahead maybe this is all in vein and when the dog sniffs the house out if it moves that is it might relax I do not know but for the 30 minutes I pretty much did all of that but just talking to the dog in a calming soothe manner letting it know it's amongst family and has no worries tried being goofy luring with treats calling by name best response I got was a slight head tilt and one time made eye contact,if I placed the dog in the sit position it stayed that way if I stood it up it stayed standing if I placed her in the down position she stayed,did not move at all under her own accord. When the collar and leash was placed on the dog it did not react at all tried giving her a little lead after standing her up and she wouldn't move tried giving her a little tug nothing too hard but enough to say lets go and she didn't move,when I took the collar and leash off she repeated the same process,but once placed back in the kennel with her mother she started running around and literally jumping off the walls climbing her dog house jumping off of it, roughhousing with her mom and trying desperately to give me kisses through the fence. That behavior gave me some hope that this might become a "normal" dog if you will but I am oblivious as to where to start when I first take her home to gain her trust,the house is completely set up I have a crate in the living room closed sides with a giant pillow/bed in it and I have one in my bedroom about 3 feet from my bed setup in the same position I have her dog food bowl set-up and ready to go...

[TooneyDogs]

When you get her home start throwing treats. She doesn't have to earn them....not yet.....don't make her catch them in the air or do a nice sit...just drop treats around the house for her. She should start looking at you more and more frequently....that's exactly what you want...she's starting to make the connection that really good things are coming from you. That's the 1st step. Work on just that until she starts to follow you around even when you're not dropping treats.
Obviously, don't overfeed, taking into account the treats as part of her daily calories.

[Iyaoyas]

thank you tooney I'll gladly do that and thanks everyone else for the insight to this extreme challenge I'm attempting. Hopefully in the near future I'll be able to post some before and after pics of our new baby and keep everyone up to date of her progress.