[Meghan&Pedro]

Hi there all. I'd like to start by thanking you for reading my post and hopefully giving me some advice.

I have a chihuahua that is just about a year and a half old. He was bred in Mexico, and brought back when he was about 6 months old by a woman who was planning on breeding him.

She didn't breed him because she didn't have the time. She allready had a malti-poo stud which she was standing (don't get me started on breeding these new 'designer dogs', that's a topic all of it's own! LOL)

My dog lived almost completely in this womans kitchen. Her maltipoo was her 'baby', and then Pedro was a second dog she didn't really have time for. He didn't get out much, and spent most of his time by himself in the kitchen because if he was out with the other dog, the other dog and he would mark the house (golly gee, two un neutered males marking? I wonder why, right? *shakes head*)

Anway, this woman was really nice to him and he always had the food and basic care that he needed- no doubt about it. She did the right thing by selling him to me because she knew she didn't have time for him.

I got him when he had just turned a year old. I neutered him right away.

Because I don't know what happened to him before he came to Canada, it leaves a big blank spot for me to try to fill in. But I know that when he was here before I got him he was not well socialized.

He HATES children to the point of growling at them just at looking at them. I don't know if it's just the direct eye contact that kids tend to make with dogs, or how quick and loud they are - I don't know. All I know is that he loathes them.

And most strangers in general he isn't too fond of. He picks certain people that he loves. And no, there is no relationship between the people he likes. He, of course, loves me and my boyfriend (who he lives with)
He also loves my mom and my sister and my dad. All of which are different sizes, shapes, voice-tones, postures, and use different body language.

Then he loves my friend Nicole, who again, is very different from everyone else he likes. Same with my friend Tyler - they all look at him differently, talk to him differently, use different hand gestures and body language as well as stand and bend differently -and they all smell different - so there's nothing I can figure that is the same.

I know that to start out with, Chi's tend to be very one-personed or one-familied, but I don't think that that's an excuse for the way he's behaving. It definatly adds to it, but it's not a good enough reason.

He barks at most strangers that look at him. He will growl at some, and he's even gone as far as to SNAP at my sisters fiance who came to visit a few months ago.

The biggest problem with him is that he was displaying all the signs of fear agresssion - he would have very uncomfortable and subsmissive body language - slinky movements, tucked tail, averting eye contact etc.

But with two different people who wanted to visit with him, he growled. And they both pulled their hands back. So... well... he WON - that' why I don't know if it's actually fear agression any more, or if he's figured "Well, when I don't want to meet someone all I have to do is stand my ground and they leave me alone"

I don't ever want him to bite someone, and I don't want to have an agressive dog. I am not looking for miracles - I don't need an off-leash-at-a-daycare transformation from him - I'm perfectly reasonable. I just want a dog that will IGNORE people if he doesn't want attention from them.

It's hard to find willing participants that want to help me socialize him, but so far I've been able to talk a few strangers into talking to him, but not looking at him, and offering him a treat that I sneak to them. Somtimes he'll take it, somtimes he won't.

Where do I go from here?

There are a few trainers I have in mind, but I can't make up my mind who to use, and I'll have to save up a few bucks before I can do it anyway - what can I do in the meantime to help prepare him for when he first meets the trainer?

Meghan

[Meghan&Pedro]

And just to add - I know that agression usually starts to show inbetween 18-36 months of age (when the dog is socially mature), and that it can be hereditary.

I don't know if it's hereditary... but he is right in the age group to be starting.

[Dulce]

Originally Posted by Meghan&Pedro

And just to add - I know that agression usually starts to show inbetween 18-36 months of age (when the dog is socially mature), and that it can be hereditary.

I don't know if it's hereditary... but he is right in the age group to be starting.

I don't know what you mean by agression starting at this age. That's not at all true. Aggression is NOT hereditary in Chihuahua's. It doesn't sound like he has "fear-AGGRESSION", it souds like he just has "fear"

It's very common for Chihuahua's to have "fear aggression" because they are so tiny, and fear EVERYTHING. Especially kids. Kids are loud, move quickly, and tend to poke and praud. (sp?) I don't like kids either!

Going to a trainer is an excellent idea. It's absolutely crucial at this point.

Has he even biten anybody??? If not, what's the problem? It is very difficult to "train" the fear out of a Chihuahua. (It's almost natural for them to be in fear of everything! hhahaha)

If he growls at someone, firmly say "NO".

[Meghan&Pedro]

Thank you for your post, however I have to disagree with you on a few things you said.

Agression can be hereditary (in regards to genetics pre-disposing the animal to hormonal imbalances within the same breed - when there's a shallow gene pool, you tend to breed in problems)within ANY breed, it's just more common among terriers and some of the bully breeds.

To quote wikepedia

"Dogs that are aggressive from fear can be that way either from genetic predisposition ("weak nerves"), or from a traumatic experience."

Fear agression is not uncommon in poorly socialized dogs. And he IS a poorly socialized dog.

And yes, agression usually does become more apparent inbetween 18-36 months because that is when the dog is socially mature.

And just to quote wikepedia again, "Dog aggression does not usually become a serious behavior in most dogs until they reach the age of 1.5 - 3 years"

I've been told this by several sources, as well as very knowlegable dog breeders and trainers, and believe this to be true.

Chihuahua's have an awful name for being 'scared' dogs when reallly it's just poor socialization from owners who don't know what they are doing that create these problems. Chi's are very terrier like, and are quite outgoing. They should NOT have fear agression, and I refuse to use an excuse like that to just dismiss it. He has not bitten anyone, but on the route he's going, I wouldn't rule it out as a possibillity - that's the problem.

I have also researched that with fear agression you should never punish the dog (whether it be with a firm voice or what not) when they display signs of fear, as it can make them even more fearful. You should praise for non agressive behavior, and try to prevent fearful behavior. You can also distract bad behavior with a command "Sit" and then "good sit" and reward from that.

I can't say that I know everything, but I have done a lot of research, and I just want a few opinions to take me FURTHER before the trainers.

There is no way to 'train the fear out' of my dog. I just want to know ways to help make him feel more comfortable, without letting him feel like he's 'winning' when he stops people from wanting to visit with him. I want to know how to start socilizing a year and a half old dog that has fear agression without making it worse, or allowing someone to get bitten.

And to add - wikepedia is NOT my only source, and actually read it for the first time tonight, but it's the only quoteable source that isn't just some dog-trainer you might not believe.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading others opinions, but there's a difference between opinions and facts.

What I have spent countless hours researching are facts, what I am looking for is opinions on how to help socialize him. Everywhere I look are definitions of his problem and why he might be that way, but no problem-solving information on how to help curb it.

[Dulce]

If you seem to know all the anwers, why are you asking us?

You are wrong, IMO, and don't take well to advice I can see. CHIHUAHUAS aren't bred to be aggressive, THAT is what I said.

What you were saying is that your dog is showing aggression towards PEOPLE, not dogs. Bully breeds are bred for agression towards DOGS, not PEOPLE. It's very different, get your facts straight.

Chi's are NOT terrier like..where are you getting your info?
Again, I don't agree with ALL dogs becoming aggressive at a certain age. That's just BS. AND NOT TOWARDS PEOPLE! Your dogs problem is with people, nots dogs from the sounds of it, and is completely unrelated to the "age" aggression, and "fear aggression" as you said

[Doglistener]

Originally Posted by Dulce

If you seem to know all the anwers, why are you asking us?

You are wrong, IMO, and don't take well to advice I can see. CHIHUAHUAS aren't bred to be aggressive, THAT is what I said.

What you were saying is that your dog is showing aggression towards PEOPLE, not dogs. Bully breeds are bred for agression towards DOGS, not PEOPLE. It's very different, get your facts straight.

Chi's are NOT terrier like..where are you getting your info?
Again, I don't agree with ALL dogs becoming aggressive at a certain age. That's just BS. AND NOT TOWARDS PEOPLE! Your dogs problem is with people, nots dogs from the sounds of it, and is completely unrelated to the "age" aggression, and "fear aggression" as you said

Dulce

I do not wish to get into an argument with you, but I have looked at a number of your posts and you are aggressive and certain of your facts, and yet you have been wrong in many of your assertions. Including this one the old saying "a little knowledge is dangerous", is so true. I think this poster does not take well to bad advice rather than advice

This case is classic fear aggressive. Stayed with a breeder for some considerable time probably prefers females to males as the breeder was a female. Will come round to some people but only given time and only when they do not push.

Chi's pound for pound are one of the most aggressive dogs I ever have to deal with. They are resource guarders and the owners are one of the resources. If they are not socialised early between the critical periods of 7 to 14 weeks, and handled by many people carefully and gently during this period, then they can become contact and fear aggressive. 95% of all aggressive behaviour in canids are fear related and has nothing to do with dominance.

Yes, fear can stem from genetics. If the mother is fearful then the pups will be fearful it is both genetic and learned, the mother genetically passes on fear but also because the pups are in contact with her her during the neonatal period 0 to 7/8 weeks they also pick up on her fear then. Genetics loads the gun socialisation fires it.

However the majority of aggression cases I see are due to lack of that critical early handling and socialisation. I have written a number of articles on this critical period time, also on how to gradually help fear and timidity in dogs.

None of these dogs will ever become life and soul of the party, but part of their problems given time can be helped given time and patience.

Look at these links and it may explain your problems and how you may help the first are articles I was commissioned to write for Dogs Monthly and K9 magazine and the fear and timidity one was for Shooting Times. Click on the URLs below

Puppies Critical Periods part one 1
Critical Periods
Fearful Timid Dogs

Stan

[Meghan&Pedro]

Thank you very much Stan I'm excited to look through these links You have been very helpful!!!

dulce - I do not want to get in an argument on my fear-agression thread. I am really looking for new information that could help me learn to better socialize him, as well as understand new ways to make him more comfortable in situations that scare him before we get to the trainers.

I feel like you're trying to start an argument with me on my thread, and I don't want that. Forums can be a reallly great place to be, or they can be really nasty places to be - keep mine a nice place to be, please!

I did appreciate your response, but I am allowed to disagree with what you say. It's the matter-of-fact way that you said it, and I knew that a lot of your facts, in this case, were not in my opinion correct.

I have a 16 year old flat coated retreiver that is a lovely dog, and have done everything from agility to making him a barn dog - but I got him as a puppy and was able to socialize him very well - I have never faced fear agression, or any type of agression for that matter with one of my own dogs. I am also not a huge chihuahua expert - all I know is what I have reserached about Chi's and about both posession and fear related agression - facts as to what they are like etc. And all you did, for me, was tell me things I did not feel were true, and contridict yourself a few times ( in my eyes) so of course I was going to thank you for your opinion but maybe help educate you as well - as I want to be educated myself.

I do take advice well, I do take different opinions well, (as long as it's given to me well :P) but I figure it doesn't hurt to give advice to the person whose giving you advice when you feel you might have a better answer then they did.

Meghan

[blackgavotte]

Megan, here's something else to think about. I know you are not ready for a trainer and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned at this stage. There is still a lot you can do to help socialize him. Now think about this. Show training !! Yes !! One thing that show breeders do from the time a puppy is very young, is take them to handling classes. These are loosely structured, but specifically aimed at teaching puppies about the din and racket of shows, other dogs, tons of new people, and table training where a " judge " goes over your dog. The club members will take turns being the " judge " and your dog will be handled, teeth checked, tail lifted, ribs felt, whatever, and the club members are very aware of scardey puppies, and the need to be very gentle. They get used to crates, but you don't have to have him in a crate if you don't want to, in fact some dogs will want the crate for their security and in extreme cases will not want to make a break from that security. Think about it. These classes are fun and easy, all the dog really needs to learn is to go happily on your left side while you do your mickey-mouse patterns, and stand and be looked at by the judge, then up on the table for some hands on. While you are waiting in your lineup he also gets used to being around the other dogs and people. Its all simple, no pressure.

Phone your vet to get lists of the breed clubs in your area, many of them have handling classes each week, I think its exactly the ticket for this little guy at this point. You don't have to have a registered dog and they really don't care if you never are going to show him, its a way for the clubs to make some extra money and absolutely great for the puppies. He is still young and would probably greatly benefit from them.

[Meghan&Pedro]

Thank you very much - thats a great idea!!

I'll give my vet a call tomorrow when I'm at work and see what I can arrange.

He was crate trained, and I still leave his crate out for him at all times - so bringing along a crate would defintaly help!

[blackgavotte]

Ijust have to add that's the most adorable photo I've seen in a long time.

If the vet can't help you, go to Western Dog Shows, on their site listing the upcoming shows, check for the clubs holding shows on the Island. They will usually have a contact person's phone number. I just quickly checked my CKC dogs annual, there is a Mrs. Westwood who has been showing chihuahuas for years from Victoria, her number is 250-474-5119, email is wisherwood@shaw.ca and she may be able to tell you about various clubs and who is running handling classes or at least give you other names for networking. Good luck.

[Meghan&Pedro]

Thank you so much for all of your help - you've been great! If the vet doesn't have any leads for me, I'll give Mrs. Westwood a shout - and hopefully she'll have some suggestions for me.



And thanks for the comments re: Pedro's pic. That's him in his new little duckies pajamas! I figure if he's gotta wear clothes (especially since this is his first winter here in victoria) I might as well have fun with it!