[Stitch]

I've seen this on "The Dog Whisperer" and my neighbor swears by it. It's when you grab the skin on the back of a dogs neck and pin him or her on their side with the other hand placed firmly near their neck and wait for them to "Submit". I've been using this method for a way to discipling my dog Chewie (4 months old), who's a Bullador (Lab/Eng bulldog hybrid).

For example: when Chewie doesn't respond to my callback command, I calmly walk over to him and then I pin him down and say firmly (without yelling) "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come". In fact, I do this anytime he doesn't respond to any of my commands, as well as when he jumps or play bites my kids and when he chews on things he is not supposed to.

Does anyone else do this? It seems to work, but I want to know if I'm on the right track. For the most part I use positive reinforcement, like luring him with a treat, and then rewarding him ONLY when he does what I ask him to do. However, when that doesn't work, I resort to the "Pinning" method.

Thoughts?...

Thanks in advance!!!

[MegaMuttMom]

Cesar doesn't pin every time a dog doesn't listen to a command!!!!!!! Why, oh why do you not work harder on positive methods?????? This is a case where a little misguided information can go drastically wrong

[Stitch]

Originally Posted by MegaMuttMom

Cesar doesn't pin every time a dog doesn't listen to a command!!!!!!! Why, oh why do you not work harder on positive methods?????? This is a case where a little misguided information can go drastically wrong

Originally Posted by Stitch

For the most part I use positive reinforcement

I guess I should have specified that I ONLY use the "Pinning" method as a last resort. But what do you do when Luring doesn't work?...

[Curbside Prophet]

Cesar's show comes with a caveat with good reason. http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

[Shaina]

Personally, positive reinforcement has worked best, via the NILIF method. Using dominating/pinning as a training technique can really backfire, and you may end up with an underconfident or aggressive dog.

I would recommend seeking a professional trainer using positive training methods and attending their puppy classes: that way you gain some professional advice and your puppy gets a chance to socialize with other puppies around his age. It would probably teach both of you a great deal, help you bond, and get you started on the right track.

CP - Thanks for the alpha roll link -- that was an interesting read

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Stitch

But what do you do when Luring doesn't work?...

Either reduce the number of distractions in the environment, or use a higher motivator.

[nlkeple]

I am in no way an authority on training dogs. But they way I taught my last dog to come and the way I am working with Lady right now is that I put some sort of smelly treats in my pocket (Lady likes Bil-Jac treats) she ONLY gets those treats when we are working on training for all the time treats she gets carrots, and Jester well, he liked EVERYTHING. Anyways we would be in the yard and I would call, when they look at me, I run away. I'm sure they exist but I have never meet a dog that won't chase a person with smelly treats when they get to me I give them a treat. Jester learned pretty quickly that if he came right away he would get something tasty.

I also think that I have read somewhere that some dogs feel more inclined to come if you squat down to their level but I can't say that for sure.

As for the Alpha thing, I personally believe there is a place for being the dominant figure, but in my opinion (just my opinion so weigh it however you want to) a better way to establish this is with NILIF. Remember there is a fine line between being dominant and being domineering (not saying this is how you behave just saying be careful because it is a fine line)

[Lonewolfblue]

Pinning a dog should very seldomly be used, and should only be used at the instant a bad behaviour occurs. What you did when he didn't come, you pinned him, and in his head, you pinned him for you just walking up to him. Not good. Pinning is only used, in my opinion, for aggressive dogs on a leash, where the dog lunges at another dog or person and you immediately pin him, as what Cesar does. But other disciplines should be tried first before resorting to pinning.

Also, a dog does not understand ""Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come"." Dogs are not human beings. They don't use the kind of thinking we do. A dogs thinking is very simple, and at the moment. So if you are telling the dog to come, and he doesn't come, then you shouldn't use the command any more until you can further train him with the command. If you keep repeating a command, and they don't listen, they then know they can get away with it. Start with the dog on a 15ft lead, and practice Come. Start at a short distance, then further. And don't repeat the command more than once. Make him do it. It will sink in, and you should then have a dog that will almost always Come when called, unless there's a distraction that overcomes the Come. You can then start enforcing the Come with distractions at that point.

[lovemygreys]

I do believe a dog should be submissive to a human - a recognition of the humans status as higher in the pack. I live with a pack of dogs - there IS a heirarchy there whether people want to acknowledge it or not. HOWEVER - I would *NEVER* physically roll a dog. If I have to use force, then I have no influence...and that's really what being a leader is. Soliciting a submissive posture from a dog should ONLY be done in specific circumstances as an 'ultimate' sort of correction....and the dog should really never be physically placed in the submissive position. It should be offered as an appeasement and acknowledgement of the status of a higher ranking dog/human. In the lifespan of *most* pet dogs, it would never be warranted.

[Anela]

I used this on my Lab/Shepard that I rescued 16 years ago. She was a mess, abused and escaped from her human and was forced to become the Alpha. This technique did work for her and another dog, a Lab/Weimaraner. My third a Lab/Terrier didn't need it, because she is very submissive.

Last April, I rescued a Shepard/Hound at 4 months. She is very submissive but I had horrible behavior issues with her that really took me about 6 months to unravel. This pinning technique was a huge mistake to use on her. She started to do submissive peeing, and I also had to deal with new issues the technique developed.

I would say to tread very carefully when using this technique. You may find yourself dealing with new problems it creates. I have also heard that some people have been severely bitten in the face when doing this in the beginning because the dog is simply frightened and get's defensive.

Anela

[lovemygreys]

I should add...I don't think you are using it appropriately. It's not an every-day training technique....Most dogs respond much more favorably to positive reinforcement and it will go a long way to building a relationship of trust and respect between you and your dog. Trust me - your dog has no idea you are saying ""Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come" - He hears: "Chewie.....blahblahblahblahblah". If he knows what "come" means then he may hear "Chewie, blahblahblah come blah come" and then experiences a physcial manipulation from you which puts him in a submissive position. There is no point or value in what you are doing other than to bully your dog.

Look up some positive training techniques for teaching recall. Ask yourself, if he truly understands what the command maens and -if he does - why is he choosing not to come to you? Perhaps because not coming is a whole lot funner than coming...Perhaps because being near you results in (from his POV) unpredicatable aggressive behavior (you pinning him for 'no good reason.). Also, consider that he's only four months old. He's still a baby. He's shouldn't be expected to have perfect obedience.

[ZensMom]

My german shepherd has been learning recall for a couple of months now Sometimes we turn in into a hide and seek game and we yell "find me" and he gets a HUGE jackpot reward for that. Othertimes, when we're working straight recall, we'll go to the dog park and zig zag down the strip of land calling him. If he responds right away he gets rewarded. If he doesn't respond the first time, I step closer to him and give him the command. Usually he'll respond the second time. If he's very distracted and does not respond the second time, I will walk up to him, I take his collar on both sides and I say "Zen, come" while walking backward and pulling him towards me. I then ask him to sit while I have his attention, because when we recall we have him to the point where he goes into a sit upon arrival. After he has calmed down from his distraction I release him from his sit and reward and allow him to go back to playtime. Its worked out well for us.

[poodleholic]

For example: when Chewie doesn't respond to my callback command, I calmly walk over to him and then I pin him down and say firmly (without yelling) "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come". In fact, I do this anytime he doesn't respond to any of my commands, as well as when he jumps or play bites my kids and when he chews on things he is not supposed to.

You're punishing your dog when you have failed in your training method to teach your dog to come when you call him! Your dog doesn't speak or understand English, so it's your job to teach him what you want him to do. What you're doing is so unfair to your dog, and sets him up to fail. All you're teaching your dog is that you are unpredictable and possibly dangerous. Your behavior is confusing to your dog, and one day, he just may take your face off.

If your dog isn't responding to what you've asked him to do, then you have failed to teach him so that he understands what you're asking him to do. Do you really believe that your dog understands one word of "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come?" I think not.

Most pet owners do not understand dog behavior, nor have a clue about learning theory, so there's no shame in having failed to train their dog, however, it's the pet owner's duty to learn how to effectively train their dog in a humane manner. Just because you don't actually physically harm your dog when pinning him, you are still inflicting damage - psychological damage that will undermine all your training efforts, and, certainly, your relationship with your dog.

Since you watch Cesar Milan's show and use his (barbaric and old school, 30 years behind the times) techniques, try watching "It's Me or The Dog." The trainer, Victoria, is a no-nonsense, tell-it-like-it-is trainer, using positive training methods with excellent results. You may prefer CM's personality, but keep an open mind, and then decide for yourself which method is effective, and good for both the dog and handler.

[ghosthunterbecki]

I was convinced, through testimonials and through the show and website, to work with CM's techniques with our dog. And they may have worked, if the issue that we were dealing with was dominance from our dog -- it wasn't. The issue was one of lack of training and lack of confidence in our dog -- the alpha roll was never going to work for him, because it *damaged* his self-confidence and therefore caused a terrible backslide in his behavior that we are still working to correct.

Thankfully, I came here.

The article that CP linked said something that interested me, about teaching your dog "down." We "down" Dozer when he needs to calm down in a situation, or we require him to "submit" in the moment. Typically the set of commands I use are "here" and "down." Here means that I want him in a very specific place (this isn't recall, he's already near me when I give the command). He goes to where I've pointed, and he lays down. And yes, we're consistent with this. I don't want to fix something that isn't broken

The command (down) also works at a distance and is effective to let him know when he's done something that displeases us. From there we can pick up the pieces and begin work with whatever problem currently needs fixing.

I'd rather my dog not fear me, or see me as "dominant." Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being "dominant."

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by ghosthunterbecki

I'd rather my dog not fear me, or see me as "dominant." Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being "dominant."

dominant = ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence

I certainly hope my dogs see me as dominant, or our pack would be in big trouble! Dominant has become a "dirty little word" in dog training, but dominant is exactly how your dog needs to see you....you don't have to get there by brute force which is how some people view dominance...something acquired only by force. In fact, the opposite is true...the best of all possible worlds is when the dog willingly submits to your dominant position (read:the best of all possible worlds is when the dog willingly submits to your influence).

I'd argue that you can't be a leader without dominance.

[RonE]

I'm not at all sure what Esther would do if I tried to pin her to the ground as a show of "leadership." I'm not even sure I could. I would, at the very least, be putting our good relationship at risk. At worst, I could be risking great bodily harm to myself.

She does what I want her to because it pleases her to please me. It seems so simple. I don't understand why that concept is so elusive.

[Anela]

I agree that it is important for dogs to see their humans as the dominant figure (I call it Alpha, some don't). This doesn’t mean that they should fear you. None of my dogs fear me for any reason. They do know when I am upset because of their mischief which is completely different.

My three large females all know that I am the one in charge, under me there is a pack order. I want and deserve their respect and protection, and they in turn have the same from me and all of the things that go along with their life of rags to riches existence.

When I got my first dog 16 years ago, a trainer told me to had feed the dog, then practice putting my hand in the bowl when she ate her food. This progressed to my being able to take food out of her bowl when she ate, and a few seconds later give it back. All of my dogs allow me to do this. I don't do it often, just when I want to assert my dominance status.

Anela

[Curbside Prophet]

I think where people get confused about "dominance" is that they want to attribute "dominance" to their dog like it's a character trait. It's not. "Dominance", from it's origins in animal behavior, is a descriptor used in the ritualistic behavior between common animals, dog to dog, wolf to wolf, etc. Furthermore, being "dominant" is extremely inefficient for an animal, and most animals WANT to avoid being dominant at all costs. It's their nature to be efficiently selfish, as that's how it's written in their genes.

It's not only wrong to assume an animal is "dominant", it's wrong to try and force this supposed character trait in a relationship with uncommon animals. Our dogs only have "x" amount of behaviors, and just because they exhibit a behavior that appears in the dog to dog relationship, does not mean it's a display of dominance in the dog to human relationship. It only means "x" behavior was exhibited in the given context. I contend that you can't understand the behavior if you've already assumed your dog to be "dominant." Look at the context, and look at your influence on the context (the environment). More times than not, it's us who NEEDS to change our behavior, not the dog. From this vantage point I'd say our dogs have the most influence.

[lovemygreys]

Sorry, Curb...but that's a bunch of bunk. Dominance isn't a trait. It is a state of being...a status of sorts. While, of course, dogs know there is a difference between humans and dogs, they absolutely can and will accept "uncommon animals" into their pack. They are wildly intelligent creatures that know how to take advantage of an advantageous situation - i.e. inviting a human into their "canine pack" and all the benefits that flow from that.

I do agree that usually it is the human who needs to change, simply b/c we tend to anthropomorphize our dogs while inflicting our own human judgements and standards onto their canine brain. I don't think that "coming down" to a dog's level in order to interact with them means the dog has more influence...it just means the human is smart enough to know the most effective way to communicate with the dog. We, in fact, use our knowledge of canine psychology to manipulate them into doing what we want them or don't want them to do. Too many people only see their dog through human eyes and do not consider things from the canine perspective.

I believe dogs are social animals...they are innately selfish in the same sense that humans are: self preservation. But, I believe most dogs prefer to live in a cooperative pack environment. Usually that would be "just dogs" but in the case of the domestic dog, they've entered into a partnership with man and that cooperative pack can include humans and dogs. Just like any co-operative group, there has to be order and a heirarchy. It may not be as evident, or even as necessary, in a one dog-one human situation...or even with a couple dogs and one or two humans. But, living with 14 dogs 24/7 I see a *clear* pack structure...there is no question there is an order to things. Too many new "animal behaviorists" are throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, in an effort to bury any and all theories related to "Alphaness" or pack structure or dominance. In the end, I believe this fad will fade b/c at the end of the day I know what *I* see on a daily basis living with a pack of dogs. And a lot of this "new dog philosophy" is just bunk....or a way to sell books.

[prolibertate]

Stitch, CP and RonE said some excellent things and I hope you listen to them. What you're actually doing is teaching your dog to fear you when you come over to him. I personally wouldn't pin any dog for any reason, as it's an aggressive action, and aggression breeds aggression. I'd much rather work with a dog so that they *want* to do what's being asked of them, and we have a good relationship together.

I don't understand when people say they want a 'submissive' dog; who wants a dog that does things because it fears you? I suspect that most people when they say this mean they want a dog who listens to them and does what's asked of them. Positive training methods accomplish that, and they do it quickly and in a manner that the dog enjoys, and which make him want to learn...and who doesn't want a dog who looks forward to their training sessions, rather than one who dreads them?

You have a 4 month old dog who should be taken to a clicker puppy class; that will teach you how to train him well and quickly using a positive traning method. At 4 months, he's just coming out of his critical period and so far a lot of what he's learned sounds like fear. At 6 months he'll have another critical period, and it's one where they can learn to fear new things; please don't introduce more of the current training methods you're using, as that will continue to set this dog up to possibly become fear aggressive.

As far as Cesar The Dog Whisperer, I personally don't like his methods, he's allegedly treating very aggressive dogs - not 4 month old puppies - and he doesn't have the training or experience that many people do in the dog training world. He even states to not use his methods at home - who knows whether that's because he doesn't want to lose out on making someone pay one of his people to work with one's dog, or because he knows his methods don't work (except for when he has them staged for his show)...He's not someone I'd want touching any dog I know, and I loathe that he has a show that people watch and then they innocently try his methods on their puppies and dogs. It's more than a disservice to the people and their animals, IMO; and it's a sad thing to see. Below are a couple links about his methods and other people's concerns.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
http://www.dogboston.com/askjo/cesarmillan.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL

Here's a link that talks about dog training on TV:
http://iaabc.org/articles/tv_training_CSmith.htm

Here's some books that will help you with your puppy:

The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training by Paul Owens (this man was around long before Cesar, and has the degrees, training, and experience that Cesar doesn't)

The Truth about Dogs: An Inquiry into Ancestry Social Conventions Mental Habits by Stephen Budiansky

Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution by Raymond Coppinger, Lorna Coppinger (this book, and Budiansky's above, are excellent books on the history of dogs, and both delve into the many differences between dogs and wolves)

The Intelligence of Dogs: A Guide to the Thoughts, Emotions, and Inner Lives of Our Canine Companions by Stanley Coren

How Dogs Think: What the World Looks Like to Them and Why They Act the Way They Do by Stanley Coren

How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication by Stanley Coren

Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (Karen Pryor Clicker Book) by Emma Parsons

Don't Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, 2nd Edition (Complete Idiot's Guide to) by Pamela S. Dennison

Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them by Pamela J. Reid

IT'S ME OR THE DOG: HOW TO HAVE THE PERFECT PET by Victoria Stilwell

Friends for Life by Fennell, Jan by Jan Fennell

The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation by Jan Fennell

The Seven Ages of Man's Best Friend: A Comprehensive Guide for Caring for Your Dog Through All the Stages of Life by Jan Fennell

For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in You and Your Best Friend by Patricia Phd Mcconnell

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell

How Dogs Learn (Howell Reference Books) by Mary R. Burch, Jon S., PhD. Bailey

Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs by Suzanne Clothier

Your Outta Control Puppy: How to Turn Your Precocious Pup Into a Perfect Pet by Teoti Anderson