[fredalina]

i swear i've dealt with everything with my foster dogs, but this current one is the worst begger i've ever seen. i have him behaving better, but nothing will work to completely stop him begging. Obviously i'm not the one who taught this behavior to him, or who let it begin, but i am the one who must improve his house manners to the point that an adopter won't be overly frustrated.

What are your opinions? Am i defeating the purpose by rewarding him for *almost* not begging? Right now i have him where he will lie down and every once in a while (and NEVER when he makes a motion or a noise) i will give him a regular treat from my pocket (and NEVER what i'm actually eating). i am working on having him look away the whole time, and working on adding distance, but we're not there yet. Ignoring him completely was NOT working, though sometimes i don't give him any treats during the meal and it's always remedial work the next time.

[Curbside Prophet]

Does he beg only when you eat your meals? Do you feed him after you eat? I'm wondering if you feed him before your own meal, he'll be content enough to settle down on a mat. Are you hand feeding him by chance? I'd run this dog ragged with obedience drills and his food as rewards. I wonder if that would be enough stimulation to reduce the begging.

[Cheetah]

My dogs have learned that if they go AWAY from me, lie down, and leave me alone during a meal, that they might just get something when I am done and they are still staying away.

If a dog begs from me, it gets nothing every time, so mine have given up on that lol...

[TooneyDogs]

My dogs lay near the table and never beg but, are very quick to snatch anything that is dropped, then they lay down again. They get fed before us. The closest they come to begging is when the grandkids come over. They will sit and watch them like vultures when the kids are munching on something!
Nothing wrong with treating while you're showing him what you want done. If he's learned to go to certain spot now, you can pretty much eliminate the treats. Reinforce the stays verbally and with a hard look. Don't forget to praise....I still praise my dogs for behaving during meal times and they are 8 and 10 years old.

[Annamarie]

my dog was turned into a begger by going to extended family events and having multiple people feed him under the table. plus my SO ALWAYS gives him some of what he's having no matter how much I scold him for it. what can i do? i'm not his mother, he's a grown man. but it bugs me so much!

if my dog begs at the table I tell him to go away. if he continues, I'll put him in a crate until we're done. that seems to solve a lot of problems. dog can't beg, and the SO can't give in to his begging

[fredalina]

The traditional stuff (i.e. ignoring, doing obedience first so he has treats, etc) is not working with this guy. Like i said i've dealt with this before and those things usually work, but this guy is baaaaaaaad. i consider it progress that he lays quietly more than he sticks his head in my lap. And yes, he only does it when i'm eating, or someone else is, though he does shuffle his bowl around on the floor when it's close to mealtime.

i don't feed him before i do because i never do, especially with fosters. It's a part of NILIF that the dominant family members eat first, so i always do. i do feed him 3 times a day, though, because my oldest dane bloated and has to be fed 4 times, so it's easiest for us to feed 3 meals to everyone and then the 4th meal to the bloat boy late at night as a special treat. So he should have enough food in his belly not to be starving. He turns his nose up at the food fairly often and maintains a good weight for his age (10 month old great danes are always lean, but he has flesh over his bones).

i think i'm doing pretty much the right thing with this character because like i said ignoring him just makes him stick his face right in the food, and of course he's table height. i can keep him out of the room, which works well for mealtimes at the kitchen table (they all know "out of the kitchen" and Corry is picking it up too though he nees reminders), but at times when i grab a snack at the computer or in front of the tv he's just evil dog.

Thanks, guys.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by fredalina

i don't feed him before i do because i never do, especially with fosters. It's a part of NILIF that the dominant family members eat first, so i always do.

Dominance theory is highly flawed. The dominant member of the pack does NOT always eat first. The pups are the priority in the pack, so if food is scarce, the pups eat first. When food is plentiful, which I assume it is in your home, everyone eats together. These aren't my observations, these are the observations of well known wolf behaviorist David Mech. That being said, eating first or eating last does not predict a hierarchy. What establishes your relationship, is who controls the resources. That's the basis of NILIF, dog sits, dog earns a reward delivered by the resource controller. Dog doesn't sit, resources (perhaps attention) is withdrawn by the resource controller.

So I'm wondering if the dog would be more compliant to settle in on a mat, being less hungry, if you fed him first, before you ate.

[JeanninePC99]

Okay, I saw this on "Me or the Dog", a Brittish show that's on Animal Channel. They had a couple stand up, walk towards the dog without stopping, and say "Back, Back, Back" in the same voice (annoying tone and loud) as most of us probably do "ah ah".

I did it with Baxter when he started in and it worked. Now, I just have to say "Back" in a normal voice and he goes to sit on his cushion.

[fredalina]

i agree with you that dominance theory is highly flawed. However i have seen the difference that me simply eating first has had in my household, particularly with fosters.

Besides, when i eat a snack at the computer, it's typically a between meals snack (i know, shame on me). This snack doesn't come right before the dog is going to eat. It's between meals for him, too, and often comes shortly after a training session in which he's gotten plenty of food rewards. i really don't think it's hunger based, which i probably should have said in my last post; sorry about that. Thanks for the thought, though.

He simply just wants my yummier people food because it's available and tastes good. He's obviously learned from his FOUR previous owners (!) that begging results in yummy food. i'd rather teach him that NOT begging results in yummy food, since trying to teach him that begging does not result in food at all has not been working.

[Curbside Prophet]

No worries fredalina. As you know all dogs are different, and when things we normally do aren't working, we have to look at how we need to change our behavior to effect the dog's. I thought perhaps switching the order of who eats first might present an alternate behavior, and one compatible with what you want.

If the dog can't settle in on a mat, I'll keep the dog from rehearsing the behavior by putting him in a crate even before I start cooking. Am I making the right assumption here, that he won't stay on a mat while you eat?

[Annamarie]

why not just crate him at meal time?

[fredalina]

He'll stay on his dog bed, if the bed is close enough to me. i can crate him to prevent it, but like i say he's such a really bad beggar that i really want to try to train the behavior out of him (or train in an alternative behavior that is more positive) as much as possible before adopting him out, to make it easier on the new owners if i can. Just crating him to prevent it doesn't solve his problem, especially as he won't absolutely require crating long term since he's potty trained and non-destructive. It will be the adopter's choice whether to use a crate or not. Thanks again!

[Cheetah]

You say that he will lay on his bed if it's close enough to you. Perhaps you should simply work on training him to lay on the bed further and futher away from you, for longer and longer periods of time.

[fredalina]

Thanks, Cheetah. That's exactly what i'm working on with him. i do give him little (and i mean tiny) bits of food every minute or two though, to reinforce the behavior. He's still basically a puppy at 10 months old, with very little training before now, so i think he's doing well. i was seeking guidance as to whether giving him food was the right thing, since not giving him food doesn't work at all.

[Cheetah]

As long as you are slowly increasing the time he has to wait for the food, as you'll eventually want to phase out the treats. Are you doing this only during dinner?

[fredalina]

Do you mean the whole thing, or just having him go to his bed? i do have him go to his bed periodically especially when the play gets a little rough/loud, have a little time out from it all and settle. Then the bed can be anywhere in the room, but if i'm eating it must be within 3 feet or so. i really only have him not beg when i'm eating, usually it's a snack between meals, not actually dinner.

Dinner (and lunch and "real meals") are a command called "Out of the Kitchen" where the natural line between the linoleum and the carpet in the living room is the natural barrier for them. They must at least stay on the carpet (which is almost out of sight from the food anyway, so they usually lose interest). If they put their front paws in the linoleum i say "Toes" and they scoot backward (it's cute). He's picked that up well for shorter periods. He only still has trouble with that when i'm, say, cooking a longer prep-time meal or baking something, and i'm in the kitchen for a long time and out of sight around the corner at the cabinets. Then he needs reminders every few minutes, but he's doing really well with that. The only other time he "forgets" is if one of us gets up from the table, then he thinks he can come in because we've moved lol. Just needs a reminder then, too. Really he's doing well, as out of the kitchen takes a while.

[Sookie's mom]

What if begging gets him something that tastes terrible? That might not work though if he's one of those dogs that will eat pretty much anything.

[fredalina]

LOL Sookie, that's hilarious! i doubt it would work but it's a really creative idea. i may try that. Hmmm, what if i soak bread in hot sauce...?