[ghosthunterbecki]

Our dog is, for the most part, obedience trained. We're still working on "come" and "stay" which in my experience are the two most difficult commands to teach a dog. Though we still have problems with loose-lead walking, that is not my focus at this point in time. Our problem is with dominance.

I know that there could be debate here, and I don't want this to turn into a debate. I need help, tips, tricks, and training methods that might help us through this difficult time. In order to prevent debate, I'd like to say a bit about our personal philosophies:

1. A dog needs to know his or her place in the family/pack, whatever that place may be (for us, the dog is a dog, not a human being -- especially important with a baby due next month!).

2. I/We will not strike our dog. We are willing to use physical training techniques, though I prefer *not* to use a choke collar (pinch are okay with me, though).

3. We believe that the training process is for the good of the *dog,* not for the good of the family who keeps the dog. We want everyone in the house to be able to live in a friendly, safe, and comfortable environment.

4. We aren't dealing with aggression -- just dominance.

All that being said, the behaviors we're encountering are mostly "nuisance" behaviors connected with a dominant state of mind in the dog. He wants to "herd" us to go where he demands that we go, for example. This is just one example of his apparent "my way or the highway" attitude. This is especially bad with my husband -- he's more obedient with me, though I don't for the life of me know why.

Any advice on teaching a dog their place in the pack would be greatly appreciated. I am able and willing to provide more information, but I would prefer not to be especially long-winded in this post, as I'm hoping for help!

ETA: I did do a search for similar topics but the list was so long I only got about two thirds of the way through it without an answer.

[TooneyDogs]

Herding is a purely natural instinct for alot of dogs and has nothing to do with dominance. The dog is doing what he THINKS he should be doing...your training issue will be....what do you want him to do INSTEAD? Do you want him to lay quietly somewhere, play with a ball, chase a frisbee, chew on a toy? You have to give him an alternate activity....anything to occupy him physically or mentally. You can also work on any of the obedience exercises which are both mentally and physically tiring.

[ghosthunterbecki]

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Herding is a purely natural instinct for alot of dogs and has nothing to do with dominance. The dog is doing what he THINKS he should be doing...your training issue will be....what do you want him to do INSTEAD? Do you want him to lay quietly somewhere, play with a ball, chase a frisbee, chew on a toy? You have to give him an alternate activity....anything to occupy him physically or mentally. You can also work on any of the obedience exercises which are both mentally and physically tiring.

Thank you for your response!

The "herding" behavior is only one of the behaviors that we are currently dealing with, but it has been the most "problematic" so focusing on that issue first is a reasonable solution for me at this point in time. Thank you.

We do have basic obedience down, though we're struggling hard with "stay" and "come." I will address our issues with those at some point in the future, I'm sure.

When the behavior starts (he tends to sit directly *on* our feet if told to lay down, for example) we direct him to "go lay down." It's a separate command and on which he knows. For the most part, this has been working, though it was a difficult command to teach.

My goal (after the baby is born and I can be more active), is to give Dozer a "job" of some sort. We haven't quite decided on what, yet, whether we want to focus on some kind of agility training or perhaps focus on the (supposed) hound aspect of his nature and teach him to sniff things out.

Right now I'm practicing a lot of observation to determine what his *specific* natural behaviors are so that we can find something to focus on that will keep him busy.

For example, he's a very visual, rather than olfactory dog. This makes things somewhat difficult because he also isn't food-motivated.

Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for occupying the mind of a visual dog? I've never run into this before in any other dog.

[Curbside Prophet]

You mentioned you supposed he was a hound, yet he herds you? Can you clarify that for me? Are you saying he's a leash puller, therefore he's leading you where to go? That's what I'd envision a hound would do.

How have you taught sit, and down?

What do you use as a motivator?

How would you describe your husband as being different than you? Specifically, manurisims and confidence?



Have you tried stinkier treats?

How do you feed your dog his daily meals?

Have you read the NILIF sticky in the dog tarining forum?

Can yo explain a little further what the dog does that would suggest dominance? I ask this question based on assumptions I've made in my mind. You said he isn't food motivated, so I'm guessing you taught sit by pushing his rear down. Which means your feet would be perpendicular to the dog and under his belly if you're normal. That being said, if you did in fact teach your dog sit this way, sitting on your feet when asking for sit or down is possible. Dogs do not generalize well, and training isn't tranferable. If you didn't vary your position when teaching sit, your dog doesn't know sit. You should be able to request for a sit across the room while standing on your head, and the dog should sit...that's when he knows it. Otherwise, we need more trials and rewards. Same with your husband. If he didn't participate much in the dog's training, you have to expect him to not understand your husband when he asks for a sit. Again, this means your dog doesn't know sit yet, and we need more trials and rewards.

Does any of that make sense?

[ghosthunterbecki]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

You mentioned you supposed he was a hound, yet he herds you? Can you clarify that for me? Are you saying he's a leash puller, therefore he's leading you where to go? That's what I'd envision a hound would do.

As for the dog's breed, I can only clarify what I was *told* in this case, unfortunately. And truth be told, I don't believe any of it except for the pit bull (which is visible in several different ways). He *appears* to have hound in him, but that's obviously negligible.

He is a leash puller, but then again, I've noticed that most dogs who lack in leash training *are* leash pullers. He lived outside on a quarter acre for several months and didn't receive this training. I don't think that the pulling is unusual, or necessarily breed specific. Please feel free to correct me, I'm here with an open mind!

Dozer herds in two different ways. One is by getting under your feet until you move in his direction (inside the house) and the other is by physically throwing his shoulder against your leg/ankle until you are where he wants you (this is currently quite painful for me).

I *assume* that this is herding behavior. Again, if I'm wrong in my assumptions, I beg to be corrected. Hard to find a problem in order to solve it if assumptions are incorrect

How have you taught sit, and down?

I didn't teach "sit," so unfortunately I'm not 100% sure on how this was taught. I *believe* that I recall our (abusive) roommate using his hand to force the dog's head up until his backside had no choice but to hit the floor (or he'd have to stand on two legs).

Same basic principle as what you suggest below, but slightly different execution.

What do you use as a motivator?

That depends. We started out trying treats, but he would take them and then drop them. Seriously not the type of thing he goes for. At this point when training I use two different motivators, one during training and one immediately afterwards.

During training I use calm praise (I don't want to get him riled up, it would defeat the purpose). After the training, we have a rousing game of fetch or tug of war, his two favorite things in the world. This works with NILIF.

How would you describe your husband as being different than you? Specifically, manurisims and confidence?

Ready for a possible surprise?

I don't think I have nearly the confidence that he has with dogs. I've been around them all my life but have always felt intimidated by them, in particular because my parents' dog had a higher family ranking than I did with my father (okay, okay, I won't get into that).

I tend to move slower and try to communicate with Dozer as a dog would communicate with him. If I need to get his attention quickly, I don't necessarily *expect* him to respond to his name, though I will use it. If I'm close enough, I not only call him, but I physically get his attention too by tapping him with my hand or foot. My husband is more inclined to give verbal cues, and as I've said, Dozer is quite a visual dog. I forgot to add physical to visual earlier, though.

Have you tried stinkier treats?

I know what you mean by "stinky," but how stinky are we talking? Hot dogs? Cheese? A bit of peanut butter on a cracker? I've tried all of these with no luck, and I don't think it gets much stinkier than cheese.

Oh, he *does* really like cat food, but... Well, I don't want to mess with his health just to train him!

How do you feed your dog his daily meals?

He gets two cups twice a day at this point. He's a year old, so we still have him on two meals a day. Food is brought out (or put down) after he goes outside and "does his thing."

Putting food down does not provoke an "eat now!" response from this dog, so having him sit and wait for it is quite pointless -- he doesn't care that he's got a bowl of food sitting there for him.

Have you read the NILIF sticky in the dog tarining forum?

No, but NILIF has always been instinctive to me. I've never allowed dogs I've owned (and sometimes even cats!) to be rewarded for no reason, including using food as a "motivator" in terms of making them earn the food. He also earns his playtime in various ways. The one thing he doesn't have to work for is general exercise (walks) and go outside to go potty time.

Can yo explain a little further what the dog does that would suggest dominance?

At this point, honestly, I believe that our assumptions were wrong somewhere along the lines. I've been seeing behaviors which, in a human child, would suggest a child trying to manipulate their parents, but I don't personally believe that dogs have "malice of forethought" in order to respond in this very human manner.

At this point, I believe that the problem is with lack of consistency between my husband and myself (he tends to be more aggressive in terms of training methods where I'm more satisfied with rewarding rather than correcting).

Frankly, I can't think of a single dominant behavior right at this point in time. General disobedience, yes, but I think that's rooted in confusion.

You all have helped me to reach this point, and I think that having a better understanding will help in moving forward. I appreciate that!

I ask this question based on assumptions I've made in my mind. You said he isn't food motivated, so I'm guessing you taught sit by pushing his rear down. Which means your feet would be perpendicular to the dog and under his belly if you're normal. That being said, if you did in fact teach your dog sit this way, sitting on your feet when asking for sit or down is possible. Dogs do not generalize well, and training isn't tranferable. If you didn't vary your position when teaching sit, your dog doesn't know sit. You should be able to request for a sit across the room while standing on your head, and the dog should sit...that's when he knows it. Otherwise, we need more trials and rewards. Same with your husband. If he didn't participate much in the dog's training, you have to expect him to not understand your husband when he asks for a sit. Again, this means your dog doesn't know sit yet, and we need more trials and rewards.

But if you position a dog who is being trained to the *side* of you when teaching them to sit or lay down, then they learn to sit or lay at your side rather than right over the top of your feet.



Generally speaking, he will sit where he's told. We have some weak spots, yes, but we've only been "able" to work with him again for the past four weeks or so. This may seem like a long time, but we started off with the assumption that the dog knew the commands. We had to adjust to him.

By the way, "lay down" works no matter where he's at. He's more consistent with "lay down" than with "sit," and "sit" often results in a "lay down." So I guess there is a problem with that command!

So... Stinky treats... Cheese?

[Lonewolfblue]

As for leash pulling, yes, many dogs are that way. They need loose-leash training, and one collar that can be very helpful with it is the prong collar. They work wonders.

As for the herding, I'm not really sure that would be considered herding, but I may be wrong also. Usually for the herding, they would nip at the ankles, trying to force you to go where they want you to, or to stop you. For dogs that try herding you, one thing that you can do is stop in your tracks, and just not move. Let the dog know that you are the boss and not him. Then when you stop, you issue a command yourself, Sit. Keep doing this over and over til he gets Sit down pat.

As for treats, what exactly are you using? Some great treats for training is small bits of cheese, hot dogs, pepperoni, and a few other goodies that they like. Petco also has some Training Bits that are great as well, they have a strong pepperoni smell. My dog loves them and cheese. For the cheese, get the cheese sticks, and cut it up into pieces that are about 1/4 inch thick. So the pieces will be about 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch thick. For training, a single stick is more than enough.

As for training, some of the first commands that you should teach is Sit, Down, Come, and Stay. Sit is probably one of the most important, as if you are trying to correct a bad behaviour, a good place to start is Sit. Down is also good too, but if the dog has any fears as in other dogs or some people, when commanded to go Down, he may feel vulnerable. So Sit is the better command for this situation. Then all your other training can be based around Sit, Down, and Stay.

[ghosthunterbecki]

Well, we haven't been using treats at all since food isn't a big motivator for Dozer. I can't remember what we'd tried in the past to reach this conclusion though, so I think I'm going to start experimenting again to see what works for him. My husband works for a pizza restaurant, so I might be able to get some slightly-out-of-date pepperoni to use!

[Lonewolfblue]

Try some different types of cheese too. Most dogs like cheese. I use Cheddar and Swiss with my dog, she loves it. And when you start, don't just give them a smell when starting. Give them a couple small pieces to let them know what they could get when they do a GOOD job.

[ghosthunterbecki]

Knowing this dog, the smell will be the reward more than the taste. He doesn't much care for food at all, and taste is the least of his worries. This is part of the problem that we're having -- he's the first dog I've ever owned as an adult who will let a full bowl of food go and never touch it

[Lonewolfblue]

Then that would be kind of hard, lol. You should be able to find something that he would like as a reward. Maybe a toy, or a ball. Or even a good tummy rubbing.

Also, for the commands, they should be as short as possible. For instance, don't use, Go Lay Down. Just say Down. They should be Sit, Stay, Down, Up, On, Off, Stand, Jump, Spin, and several other commands. Try not using sentences. Once the dog get's the basics down, then you can try other training, like names of family members, names of toys, and other games to keep him thinking.

[ghosthunterbecki]

In the case of "go lay down," it's a completely different command, or rather two commands. We're telling him to "go" to a certain spot and to "lay down." We've tried training without the "down" part of it and he doesn't respond. If you just say "down" he thinks you mean to sit.

This dog really makes me think about the fact that they obviously don't speak English (heck, they're dogs, right?). I believe that with Dozer, it's not the command itself but the tone of voice in which it is given, and the visual that he gets alone with it (I use visual cues along with the verbal cues because of how he generally reacts to both).

We need to be working now on "sit" (on the spot, not "come here and sit down on my feet"), "come" and "stay." The latter two are always going to be difficult commands for me, and I can't remember how I taught them to the one dog I've trained in the past.

I think Monday I might call the vet and see if we can't get a referral to a trainer. I am not fond of the methods used by Petsmart (I had a friend who was certified by them and even *she* didn't like their methods) and see what we can do to help us and him.

This isn't Dozer's problem, it's ours. It's good to have that in mind.

[Lonewolfblue]

Hide and Seek, great way to teach Come and Stay. First, you place the dog where you want him to stay. Then say Sit, then stay. Then move away a short distance, turn and come back and praise him if he didn't move. Then graduate to further distances, then different rooms. Once he has Stay down, then you can issue Come. If he comes and finds you, praise him and give a treat if he'll take it. I think Come is much easier to teach. Stay might be the harder of the 2.

[ghosthunterbecki]

I find a *reliable* "come" harder to achieve than "stay" though. He's run out of the house on a couple of occasions and we need to find a motivator to "come" that is stronger than the motive to *run*. It might be time to go treadmill shopping, as much as I hate the idea *sigh*

Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely try the "hide and seek." We're going to have to get a good, reliable "stay" first though, as he tends to follow us everywhere around the house!

[Lonewolfblue]

I've now started Hide and Seek myself, and my dog is really starting to get into it. It's hard at first, as there's sometimes other distractions, but they will become more interested if you can make it "Fun". And yes, I do understand the motive to "Run". Goes into the same category as Other Distractions. Another thing, if you get to the point where he's doing good with Hide and Seek, you can up the ante by adding More Distractions. This is a very good challenge for the dog. And it can be fun too, can get other people or kids involved as well. Fun for the whole family.

Also, while playing this, you are enforcing these commands as well. Sit, Stay, and Come. You can even do Down, and make sure he stays laying down until you say Come.

Another help is something noisy on his collar. Helps if you are going in another room, so know he's not moving. The tags on my dogs collar are pretty noisy, and I know if she's started coming before I say Come. Then I just walk back to her, take her back to where I put her into a Sit, then have her Sit again. No treats til she does it right.

[ghosthunterbecki]

I haven't gotten Dozer's tags on him yet because I lost the darned S-hook for it. We need to get a new one, and an ID tag for him and the cats ASAP. I'm getting especially worried given how many animals are wandering around outside these days and obviously have homes!

I'm not sure that two tags would make enough noise though, but I'm sure I can think of another option, like a small container with rice in it, so that it would rattle. And Dozer does love games! That's why we use toys and games as rewards for him!

[Lonewolfblue]

Could put a little bell on the collar too. I have 4 tags on my dog, but the Microchip one is plastic, so it doesn't count. I got the dog license, the rabies tag, and a name tag. All 3 are metal, and they jingle good.

Here's another trick to try. My trainer showed me this, and she said all dogs do it, lol. Put a good smelling piece of food in your hand with the hand closed. The dog will try to get it. He may do this for a few seconds, then will stop and sit back. That is when you open your hand and let the dog get the treat. You can teach Stop with this technique. Associate Stop with stopping and sitting back, waiting. I'm doing this with my Betty as well. By the way, if you didn't see my other posts, she's a Blue Heeler/Australian Shepherd mix.

[ghosthunterbecki]

Oh! I'll bet she's a beautiful dog with that mix of breeds! They're both gorgeous!

We did teach him "drop" in a similar manner, but in terms of his toys. If he won't drop, the game ends. He learned that command in under 20 minutes! Definitely a smart dog.

We'll have to try that trick, too.

Now that I'm thinking about it, we've made a TON of progress with this dog, and I should really be proud of myself. When we first brought him indoors, he chewed on everything (including some incredibly dangerous items, like electrical cords). My policy is to puppy-proof the house, not house-proof the puppy, and we did our best but still couldn't get everything out of the way. Now he knows the difference between his toys and things he's not allowed to chew on, so that is *huge* progress for only four weeks (and that was after only two)!

Perhaps part of my problem is that he learns some commands *so* quickly that I expect everything to be that easy, and it really isn't. It's good to be able to look at where we've gone *right* because that allows us to stay focused and centered on what the *dog* needs, not our own frustration.

Thank you so much!

[Lonewolfblue]

That is pretty cool in 4 weeks. They are fast learners, and some things do take a little longer, but they WILL learn. Sometimes it takes a short break, then going back to it. And during that break, you can repeat some of the things already learned, just as a refresher, then go back into training mode. The breaks can be a couple days to a week or so. This gives them a chance to recoup, and start the new challenges ahead.

Here's the link for my Betty....
http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictu...ew-family.html (Betty, my new family member....)

[ghosthunterbecki]

Oh yes! I *did* see her picture and was thinking just how beautiful she was! You can really see the heeler in her, can't you? What an amazing face on Betty! Congratulations on her, by the way!

[Lonewolfblue]

Thanks..... Yes, you can see the Blue Heeler in her, as well as the Shepherd. My trainer said nice looking Shepherd, what else is in the mix? lol. I said Blue Heeler, and she said she looks awsome.

Well, it's off to bed for me. Got to get up early, and hopefully Betty doesn't do what she did last night. She kept bringing her rope up onto the bed, wanting to play Tug of War. At about 1am, I was wanting to lock her in her kennel so bad, lol. She finally stopped and went to sleep.