[Alpha]

I simply use it as a form of training, when I feel she's being more dominant then me, simply put.

The problem I have with this is that if your trying to assert dominance, this is an awful way of doing it. I hope you read the article I posted the link too, but it clearly explains WHY alpha rolling is so confusing and terrifying to our dogs.

In the wild, a wolf would only forcibly roll another, if he meant TO KILL IT. You obviously haven't killed your dog, but everytime you do it, those are the thoughts going through her head. Then when you don't, do you think she trusts or respects you more? Nope. She might be scared so it APPEARS that she respects you, but respect and fear are two different things. [Had to add, perhaps sometimes my dogs "fear" me, if I'm angry with them, but not because they think I'm going to kill them. Because they're afraid what will happen if I'm angry with them... and it's nothing physical. All mental; They won't get to cuddle with me on the couch, I may take their bed away, I'll ignore them. All very important things in my dog's lives. Things that they like, things that I am in control of]

If a wolf/dog is trying to assert dominance, they do it by controlling the resources. I dont' like what you just did, no food for you tonight or no baby making rights for you or no comfy spot in the den etc etc, simply put.

None of the above are done with any force, it's all mind control... Mwa ha ha! LOL

I'm not judging. Just giving my opinion as well.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

Why would you keep calling me out, or others who use the same technique, saying that we shouldn't do it cause it doesn't work on some people, probalby the people who don't know how to use it properly and get "bit by their dogs", or so you say.

Since you asked let me tell you a story that happened to me recently. I volunteer my time at a local shelter a few hours during the week, but mostly on the weekend. One Saturday I went to the shelter with the intention of walking more than a few dogs. In fact, one of the dogs there now looks as beautiful as yours. Anyway, I didn't walk dogs that Saturday as I normally did. The staff was short handed and they needed someone to help out in the surrender lobby. I volunteered.

I volunteered 6 hours on that Saturday. During that time 6 dogs, 4 cats, and 1 chicken were surrendered. Of those animals, 2 dogs, all 4 cats, and the chicken were surrendered as strays. One dog was surrendered by an elderly lady who no longer felt able to care for her dog. The other 3 dogs were also owner surrenders. Why were they surrendered? They bit their owners. If you're wondering, these dogs were all promptly euthanized when the holding period expired. Known biters are too much of a responsibility for any City to risk adopting out. Why did the dogs bite you ask? Each of their owners stated at one point in their interview that they tried "Dog Whisperer" training. One dog was a constant barker. One dog was an escape artist. And the other dog didn't respond well to the "new" puppy. All things, with proper training, that can be corrected without physical force. I'm sure these people too bought in on Cesar's mantra and wanted to be the "dominant" one in the house. Well, they succeeded.

Now, I'm not one who's foolish enough to believe this story is anything but anecdotal. Surely it must have been coincidental that half the surrendered dogs on that Saturday just happened to be from people who acknowledged using Cesar's techniques but did not acknowledge Cesar's caveat. Whether they got the idea to use physical force from Cesar's show or from an internet forum, the death of one dog, by novices who used physical force, is one too many. I don't blame Cesar for these dogs dying. I don't even blame the owners for trying things on their own. What I do blame is the idea that physical force on dogs, no matter how mild we perceive it to be, is acceptable...and especially in the absence of training or testing.

Sure, if you don't know how to use the technique, you shouldn't use it. Duh! Sure, if it works for your dog there's no problem, right? Wrong! I know 3 dead dogs who's owners weren't dog savvy enough to understand that a technique like alpha rolling is dangerous - it certainly was for these dogs, ultimately ending all behavior. And guess what? These same kind of people frequent internet forums just like this one. So yes, if I speak up for dogs, I apologize. And I'm sorry if I disagree with your advice. I'm certain you wouldn't want your advice to be a contributing factor in a dog's death now do you. <=Notice that was a statement, not a question. I know your answer already because I don't doubt you're a caring person.

You say my dog should be trained before being punished? What makes you think I am punishing her?

Why would you alpha roll a dog if you didn't intend the frequency of the previous behavior to diminish? I'm not against punishments...that are appropriate and non-physical.

What makes you think she is not trained?

Did you not say that you moved into the city? Where dogs are more present? Did you not say this is when you discovered you had a problem? Did you not acknowledge that your dog *was* poorly socialized? Socialization requires training, does it not? I'm sure you're working hard at socializing your dog. I don't fault you for working on your dog's social skills. It's commendable to acknowledge your dog has a problem and that you're actively working on it. But if you're actively working on it, your dog isn't trained...yet.

You keep saying in your posts that you don't know us, our dogs or our ways, nor do you want to, but now you're accusing me of abusing my dog and not training her. That, my friend, was rude...

I'm glad you finally decided I *am* your friend. Perhaps now we can make some headway, or not, but nope, I haven't accused you of anything. Again, you do not understand my intent. What I'm accusing, is the idea of alpha rolling, being a good example of a correction. And when I questioned you on it, only then did it become a personal matter, on your part. I understand that people *like* people to agree with them. I understand that there may be "nice" ways to disagree, but that's not my concern here, and if it's not now obvious to you that I disagree with "alpha rolling" and not "battlemonkey", I can't help you. I'd be "nice" if dog lives weren't involved. Perhaps I am being too dramatic, but I'm speaking with conviction.

In a manner that bespeaks the determination with which *I* believe it. Because contray to the wisdom of the bumper sticker, it's not enough these days to simply question authority, you have to speak with it too! - Taylor Mali

[Ixala]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

WE THE STAFF do not advise it, and advise against it.

<sigh> I just wish such advice and opinions could be, consistently, offered impersonally, without emotionalizing judgments and name calling.

[rosemaryninja]

Originally Posted by Ixala

<sigh> I just wish such advice and opinions could be, consistently, offered impersonally, without emotionalizing judgments and name calling.

That's almost impossible. You can try criticise the training method ONLY, but the trainers who use that method will almost always rush to the defense of their practices. That is when it stops being impersonal - when people take it personally.

I honestly don't think that advice to alpha roll should be dispensed on this forum. Like I said, I don't agree with alpha rolling, but I believe it can help SOME dogs. However, it should not be used with every dog. People were encouraging me to pin my dog because it wanted to mount my other dog. That was hardly called for and if I hadn't known better I would actually have tried it. I highly doubt that Spunky would have bitten me, but it would have harmed our relationship negatively.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

That's almost impossible. You can try criticise the training method ONLY, but the trainers who use that method will almost always rush to the defense of their practices. That is when it stops being impersonal - when people take it personally.

I honestly don't think that advice to alpha roll should be dispensed on this forum. Like I said, I don't agree with alpha rolling, but I believe it can help SOME dogs. However, it should not be used with every dog. People were encouraging me to pin my dog because it wanted to mount my other dog. That was hardly called for and if I hadn't known better I would actually have tried it. I highly doubt that Spunky would have bitten me, but it would have harmed our relationship negatively.

I totally agree.

And I think it should be added that even if there are times when an alpha roll might work, it's best to first consult with a professional (certified animal behaviorist). Even before Cesar Millan's show, each and every time, and even right in the middle after the commercial break, it says: "Do not attempt these techniques without consulting a professional."

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by Ixala

<sigh> I just wish such advice and opinions could be, consistently, offered impersonally, without emotionalizing judgments and name calling.

Yeah i know what you mean.

to discuss is one thing, but some folks like to go around and telling people they are wrong isnt always the best way to get the point across. Me and Battlemonkey talked and i told her that i usually get attacked for saying some of the things i do. but personally i dont give a f***. if someone doesnt like the way i do things oh well, but my dogs are happy and yes i know and yes it shows. how some of you might ask? well for one their tail is wagging the bounce around the house excited, not hiding in the corner.

Curbside, im sorry but you do tell people they are wrong in the wrong way. as if alot are dumb kids. if you know so much, how about using it to aid, not point out negatives. is it possible to help people without using condescending language. im glad you help that shelter lord knows those animals need help. but from what it appears no one is a f***ing animal perfectionist. we can all have a pissing contest to see who is right, or we can all learn each other and help each other. im the worlds worst, if someone says "no you are wrong" and i know im not wrong, then i go find something to back it up.

the alpha pinning: peope this has gone back and forth. I think to many people are catching this thread in the middle. i thought we closed out that topic? well i think "always" forceful pinning might not always be the best, but if you pin when they are submissive the point is crossed. if your dog flies off the handle and you need to get a strict point across, then IMO go for it. and for anyone who wants to tell me how bad it is, please dont waste your time typing. everyone here has found something to back up their theories, so its a dead topic.

Cesar Millan: i think we need to decide to take his advice or not. i see people use hes advice, but when someone brings up some other form of technique he uses, that same person tells others to not use it cause its not safe. yes or no?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by ar3151

Curbside, im sorry but you do tell people they are wrong in the wrong way.

And I have an e-mail box filled with thank-you's. If I'm wrong, I'm not aware of it. Don't take it personally, it's not your life on the line that I'm worried about.

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

And I have an e-mail box filled with thank-you's. If I'm wrong, I'm not aware of it. Don't take it personally, it's not your life on the line that I'm worried about.

congrats on that.

and no one's life is on the line, again dont assume bad things are always going to happen to animals, you shouldnt live in fear.

[rosemaryninja]

Originally Posted by ar3151

Yeah i know what you mean.
Curbside, im sorry but you do tell people they are wrong in the wrong way. as if alot are dumb kids. if you know so much, how about using it to aid, not point out negatives.

That's what she does. In order to help somebody, you correct them.

well i think "always" forceful pinning might not always be the best, but if you pin when they are submissive the point is crossed. if your dog flies off the handle and you need to get a strict point across, then IMO go for it.

How many times has your dog flown off the handle? I know my dog has never flown off the handle, and mounting Honey does NOT count as flying off the handle. So why did you recommend me to roll her?

Cesar Millan: i think we need to decide to take his advice or not. i see people use hes advice, but when someone brings up some other form of technique he uses, that same person tells others to not use it cause its not safe. yes or no?

I think a lot of what Cesar says - his mottos like "exercise, discipline, affection", and so on - make sense. They are common sense and "exercise, discipline, affection" is basically a summary of what you would read in any good dog book. However, I don't agree with him doing such physical training on the show. Cesar deals with some EXTREME cases, like dogs who can't pass another dog without raging out and seriously meaning to kill. In this case, I would agree that physical methods are called for, but these methods need to be done right, by professionals like him or other dog behaviourists. Not the average joe pet owner.

By doing them on television, he's telling everybody that "if your dog is like this, do this alpha roll and she will learn better" when he really should be telling them "if your dog is like this, get professional help". So, firstly, this leads to people trying to alpha roll their aggressive dogs and setting themselves up for potential injury.

Secondly, it tells people who have mildly dominant dogs that alpha rolling is the answer. Pinning should never be done unless in the absolute worst case scenario, but advocating it through a medium like television encourages people to pin their dogs when they bark at the mailman, when they strain on the leash, when they growl over their food and a hundred other scenarios in which alpha rolling is completely uncalled for. And these owners will end up terrifying their dogs rather than teaching them.

[battlemonkey]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

That's what she does. In order to help somebody, you correct them.



How many times has your dog flown off the handle? I know my dog has never flown off the handle, and mounting Honey does NOT count as flying off the handle. So why did you recommend me to roll her?



I think a lot of what Cesar says - his mottos like "exercise, discipline, affection", and so on - make sense. They are common sense and "exercise, discipline, affection" is basically a summary of what you would read in any good dog book. However, I don't agree with him doing such physical training on the show. Cesar deals with some EXTREME cases, like dogs who can't pass another dog without raging out and seriously meaning to kill. In this case, I would agree that physical methods are called for, but these methods need to be done right, by professionals like him or other dog behaviourists. Not the average joe pet owner.

By doing them on television, he's telling everybody that "if your dog is like this, do this alpha roll and she will learn better" when he really should be telling them "if your dog is like this, get professional help". So, firstly, this leads to people trying to alpha roll their aggressive dogs and setting themselves up for potential injury.

Secondly, it tells people who have mildly dominant dogs that alpha rolling is the answer. Pinning should never be done unless in the absolute worst case scenario, but advocating it through a medium like television encourages people to pin their dogs when they bark at the mailman, when they strain on the leash, when they growl over their food and a hundred other scenarios in which alpha rolling is completely uncalled for. And these owners will end up terrifying their dogs rather than teaching them.

He does tell people to seek professional help before attempting anything he does on TV, he doesn't just tell random people to do whatever he does. He's had years and years of experience, and it shows. If people want to try doing what he's been doing, then why not? Live and learn, maybe you'll come out on top, maybe you won't, s*** happens, right?!

Your dogs have never flown off the handle, congratulations! Some dogs are more well-behaved then others, some dogs take less time to train then others, some people don't even train their dogs, the list goes on and on. My dog is 9yo and I'm still training her. I've been trying to train her since I adopted her when she was 2 months old, there's nothing wrong with that. There is always something to learn, whether you agree or not. I am still learning things in life, then why shouldn't our pets? Would you think it's wrong that I'm trying to train my cats? Oh, God, I push their bums down to try and teach them to sit before a treat, is somebody going to scold me because it's the wrong thing to do? I am using physical touch...now I'm sure somebody will tell me that my cats are going to bite and claw my eyes out because I'm touching them (mind you, alot of cats claw your eyes out if you touch them...lol).

Andrew is right, this case should have been closed and I'm asking the mods to please close this thread before something gets said that shouldn't be.

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

That's what she does. In order to help somebody, you correct them.

There is a difference in helping and talking down to someone, im sorry im not a person that lets people do that.

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

How many times has your dog flown off the handle? I know my dog has never flown off the handle, and mounting Honey does NOT count as flying off the handle. So why did you recommend me to roll her?

i have a rowdy dog what can i say? she flies off from time to time, she is 11 months old and just cause she is rowdy doesnt make her a bad dog and im not going to get rid of her, so i choose to work with her more.

no i dont think you should roll her. unless she doesnt listen to you at all, i would only do that when the dog just really doesnt mind. i personally would give a good pat on the bottom and say NO! but thats where im a bad person according to some folks. but thats my method.

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

I think a lot of what Cesar says - his mottos like "exercise, discipline, affection", and so on - make sense. They are common sense and "exercise, discipline, affection" is basically a summary of what you would read in any good dog book. However, I don't agree with him doing such physical training on the show. Cesar deals with some EXTREME cases, like dogs who can't pass another dog without raging out and seriously meaning to kill. In this case, I would agree that physical methods are called for, but these methods need to be done right, by professionals like him or other dog behaviourists. Not the average joe pet owner.

By doing them on television, he's telling everybody that "if your dog is like this, do this alpha roll and she will learn better" when he really should be telling them "if your dog is like this, get professional help". So, firstly, this leads to people trying to alpha roll their aggressive dogs and setting themselves up for potential injury.

you see what i mean by him, its hard for average people to do those things. i just say we leave him out of our talks since it seems alot of people get mixed up.

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

Secondly, it tells people who have mildly dominant dogs that alpha rolling is the answer. Pinning should never be done unless in the absolute worst case scenario, but advocating it through a medium like television encourages people to pin their dogs when they bark at the mailman, when they strain on the leash, when they growl over their food and a hundred other scenarios in which alpha rolling is completely uncalled for. And these owners will end up terrifying their dogs rather than teaching them.

i agree with you, there is a time and a place for everything, i dont normally roll or pin my dogs, but again they dont really do anything that bad. i just agree with those types of discipline. and it appears that i do them all the time, but i have stated where i dont. im more of a way "come on melody stop" rather than lash out, LOL.

thanks for the talk.

[Cheetah]

If the OP of this thread has gotten what they need from it and would like it closed, please PM me and I will be glad to do so.