[Alpha]

This is the link where a lot of the stuff I've posted here comes from.

For those that speak of "using physical force" to become the leader and are general pro-alpha rollers, PLEASE READ THIS!

It's an excellent read.

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/...ha-roll_no.htm

Just a very short part quoted here in case you don't want to read the whole thing... but you should! LOL

These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?

[applesmom]

I haven't read the entire thread. Quit when it went off topic.

Back to the original question. As I see it, this most likely isn't a dominance issue at all! Chances are that it's a physical problem instead.

The dog that's being humped is probably putting out some sort of signal that's triggering this frantic behavior. It could very easily be a scent. Possibly from the anal gland or a UTI.

I'd suggest having that dog checked for either of those conditions. If she checks out okay I'd suggest having the other dog checked for possible thyroid dysfunction.

Hope you figure it out soon and get them back on an even keel.

[rosemaryninja]

Originally Posted by applesmom

I haven't read the entire thread. Quit when it went off topic.

Back to the original question. As I see it, this most likely isn't a dominance issue at all! Chances are that it's a physical problem instead.

The dog that's being humped is probably putting out some sort of signal that's triggering this frantic behavior. It could very easily be a scent. Possibly from the anal gland or a UTI.

I'd suggest having that dog checked for either of those conditions. If she checks out okay I'd suggest having the other dog checked for possible thyroid dysfunction.

Hope you figure it out soon and get them back on an even keel.

If this were the case, wouldn't Spunky be humping Honey all the time? She only humps after walks or after training sessions. Not during the regular day, and not during feeding time either.

[Renoman]

Just my two cents....

I have to go along with those that suggested seperate training sessions. Each dog needs 'special' time alone with you and if by training seperately you can eliminate the problems you're having as well as giving them their special attention, seems to me it would work out for everyone.

If the humping issues start to show up at another time during the day, then I would look for professional help. It might be something you're unknowingly doing (or not doing) that triggers these episodes. Having a professional witness and evaluate how the girls interact during the training sessions would go a long way in helping to resolve the problem, I think anyway.

[rosemaryninja]

Thanks. Separate training sessions didn't help, but I found that giving Spunky her "special time" with me during a short extra walk does. One question though, is this going to pose long-term problems later on if Honey should get jealous? I start by walking them both, then after about half an hour I specifically send Honey home and then leave again with Spunky only. Should I keep up with this or should I walk Honey alone, THEN Spunky also alone?

[Renoman]

It can't hurt to try walking them seperately. That way they have their 'special' time alone with you and your undivided attention.

If you can't find a solution on your own, I would again suggest calling in a professional for an evaluation.

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

I think to each his own when it comes to raising their children, or training their dogs. If you ask for my suggestions, that's totally cool, I'll give them to you. But I think it's been mentioned before, that everybody has a way of doing things, and not everybody will agree with it and I've come to terms with that. But to say negative things about the way I train my dog is not just wrong, it's plain rude! I have never once made fun of or poked fun at the way somebody was training their dog/s. If you want to spoil your fur-babies, by all means do. Does a dog know if he's being lugged around in a 1000$ Gucci bag? No. Does a dog know whether or not his dog food cost 20$/bag or 75$/bag? No. Does a dog know whether or not you're his leader or follower, bet your sweet hiney he does.

See this is what im talking about.

Curbside, im not calling you out, but this is why we had our deal, you talk down to everyone, assume they are mistreating their dog, just cause someone swats their dog once you think its everyday, lastly you do disagree with what everyone says. You did the same thing to battlemonkey as you did me.

I tell people what i did and what works for me, if people want to take it fine, if not they dont have to.

and there is no long term proven damage to the dog, but the 40's and 50's are a long time ago.


Alpha,

i see what you mean, and i think you are right, the subordinate wolf submisses, but see he/she does it when the higher ranking does it. alot of people are to scared to establish dominance, so when they do that they get bit. i think that is part of the problem here. there is no need to force if they wolf respects.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by ar3151

Curbside, im not calling you out, but this is why we had our deal, you talk down to everyone, assume they are mistreating their dog, just cause someone swats their dog once you think its everyday, lastly you do disagree with what everyone says. You did the same thing to battlemonkey as you did me.

Again, and this will be the last time I say it, I only speak to ideas. I don't know you, your training techniques, or your dog. I don't plan on knowing you, your training techniques, or your dog. However, if I disagree with an idea, expect it to be challenged. I do, and if you stand behind your idea, it shouldn't be a problem. But if you haphazardly offer ideas, perhaps you can be easily offended, but you'd be missing the point. And I can't help how you perceive that.

Besides, who in their right mind hits their dog once and proclaims to others they've found the solution to all their dog's problems?

I tell people what i did and what works for me, if people want to take it fine, if not they dont have to.

And if you tell someone to jump off a bridge, expect someone to explain how moronic that would be. To each their own until it's deemed harmful.

and there is no long term proven damage to the dog, but the 40's and 50's are a long time ago.

Dogs have suffered long enough to know that punishments needn't be physical, therefore I believe they shouldn't be physical. I can't believe in this day and age, with all the experiments suffered by dog, that we'd have to assume it's okay. Silly.

[battlemonkey]

Thanks Andrew...now I totally understand what you were talking about the other day with me...

It's true, when people have different training techniques than others, than there will be some disputes, there's no doubt about it. But my problem is when you judge somebody for having different ways of doing things and pretty much tell them it's wrong, and it's never worked for you, and blah, blah, blah. Well, maybe it's worked for us. Maybe it's worked for more than just us.

Myself, I have never hit my dog for any reason. Maybe a little flick on the nose when bumming for food, but no backhand to the butt, no kick in the flanks, nothing.

Would you do the same thing to somebody on a board for raising kids that if somebody put their kids in the corner, and that worked for them, that they shouldn't do that cause it didn't work for you? Oh wait, maybe you would cause you're doing that here.

Sure, everybody has the right to their own opinion, but like Andrew said, you look down on everybody for having one, unless it's the same opinion as yours. If dog pinning didn't work for you, or you got bit by your dog, then don't just assume that every dog will bite their owners if they try the same thing.

[Ixala]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I only speak to ideas.

That's easy to find merit in.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Besides, who in their right mind hits their dog

(Emphasis mine)

That contradicts the first expression, and reads like a form of name-calling.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Ixala

That contradicts the first expression, and reads like a form of name-calling.

It would be a contradiction if it were a statement made of anyone here. It was a question. I assume no one here would raise their hand to this question and say "I". Would you?

Whether you care for my opinion is not my concern. When it comes to the abuse that is perpetuated on our dogs, I'm all out of "nice." Perhaps that *is* transfered into my opinion, rightfully so, but do you question the intent?

Funny though how you're looking for a malicious intent. Who's the judgmental one now? It's just a question.

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

Sure, everybody has the right to their own opinion, but like Andrew said, you look down on everybody for having one, unless it's the same opinion as yours. If dog pinning didn't work for you, or you got bit by your dog, then don't just assume that every dog will bite their owners if they try the same thing.

Yes I know. I'm a very bad person for suggesting you should test your pinning technique. Or for suggesting that you should train your dog before punishing him. What was I thinking? And I know it was completely wrong for me to illustrate that dominance wasn't a character trait. I apologize for speaking up for your dog. How rude of me!

[Ixala]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Funny though how you're looking for a malicious intent. Who's the judgmental one now?

Again, that reads, to me, like more name calling.

[Curbside Prophet]

Label it which ever way pleases you. But if you have a problem with the information contained in my posts, please comment on them. Otherwise, we're done on this point.

[battlemonkey]

You're saying you're speaking up for my dog??!! Hahahahaha... Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I can tell alot more what my dog is thinking than you can, and I'm damn well sure she isn't giving me your point of view on things. Like I said, if it works on my dog, and it doesn't work for others, than why wouldn't you just leave me to it? Why would you keep calling me out, or others who use the same technique, saying that we shouldn't do it cause it doesn't work on some people, probalby the people who don't know how to use it properly and get "bit by their dogs", or so you say.

I have never once been bitten by my dog for being more dominant than her You say my dog should be trained before being punished? What makes you think I am punishing her? What makes you think she is not trained? You keep saying in your posts that you don't know us, our dogs or our ways, nor do you want to, but now you're accusing me of abusing my dog and not training her. That, my friend, was rude...

[Cheetah]

There is a bottom line on the advising of alpha rolling on this forum and that is this:

It is very DANGEROUS to advise alpha rolling on a training forum like this, because it is populated by many new/first-time dog owners, who could potentially take the advice and try it on their own dogs, which could result in serious injury to the dog and/or the owner. This would also be a LIABILITY.

Thus, regardless of how you or we feel about it, we DO NOT advise alpha rolling on this forum. This would be why I don't think you'll find a moderator on here who is "super pro-alpha rolling".

[Gates1026]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

Like I said, if it works on my dog, and it doesn't work for others, than why wouldn't you just leave me to it? Why would you keep calling me out, or others who use the same technique, saying that we shouldn't do it cause it doesn't work on some people, probalby the people who don't know how to use it properly and get "bit by their dogs", or so you say.

What makes you think I am punishing her? What makes you think she is not trained?

What would you say Alpha rolling your dog is? Is it in some way a reward or positive experience for your dog? I don't think that it requires a great stretch of logic to call this sort of treatment a punishment for your dog.

You also hit on one of the main points of this thread (and overall topic in general) when you say that someone may do it incorrectly and get hurt. That is exactly one of the problems in recommending this method for others. Does the average dog owner know enough to do this safely? What would you say to someone who takes your recommendation and gets hurt?

Even if I was convinced that this method was effective (and I surely am not), I think that there are many far safer and positive alternatives.

[Cheetah]

Personally, I make it a point to put my dogs on their backs on a regular basis, for training purposes - but not as a form of punishment. I do it so they will readily accept grooming/handling. I figure if I use it as punishment, it pretty much ruins being able to use that position for anything positive that I will need to use it for (let's say my dog has a leg injury, and I need to flip him over so he's not standing on it, and so I can get a better look - and yes this has happened and it was very useful to be able to do quickly).

There are better ways to train my dogs anyway.

[Alpha]

I'm going to be completely honest.

I've gone against what experienced dog people have told me NOT to do. I have. Because I used the old: You don't know me, you don't know my dog, blah blah blah... childish nonsense. (referring to myself, not anyone on this thread!)

And I did it anyways. Thank GOD, what I did (e-collar usage with an aggressive tendency, although with a method that many use effectively that's a whole other thread) didn't have a negative effect on my dog and our relationship.

Truth be told, it didn't work anyways! LOL. BUT, it could've very well put an awful, negative strain on our relationship. I believe it didn't because I spend a lot of time with my dogs, more than your average person (My work allows me to bring my dogs pretty much everywhere I go).

I know I'm stubborn, and I didn't want to believe what they told me. So, I only came about to realize how wrong I was, until I did it. Then compared it to what worked 100%, stepped back, and said; "Wow... They were right.. what an idiot I am". But it took me going against their advice, and doing it myself for me to realize.

So I know firsthand, all the information, all the experience and knowledge won't change anyone's mind about alpha rolling.

Unfortunately it will take a tragic happenstance. Or, like in my situation, if you continue to educate yourself about dog behaviours/training, you'll just figure it out for yourself

I've been awful rude to a person, or two or three ( ) when it comes to certain training methods, I'll admit. And from my personal opinion, I think it's because in the beginning, your trying to be nice about it ie: Hey man, I've done it, or I've seen it done, and no good can come of it.

But after it feels like your repeatedly banging your head against a brick wall, you get angry. Why isn't this person listening to me? I'm really trying to help....

So that's my rant for the day Or not... ROFL!

[battlemonkey]

Dude, I'm not saying I use it as a form of punishment, I've never once mentioned that. I don't punish my dog, she doesn't do anything to merit any form of punishment. I simply use it as a form of training, when I feel she's being more dominant then me, simply put.

Originally Posted by Cheetah

There is a bottom line on the advising of alpha rolling on this forum and that is this:

It is very DANGEROUS to advise alpha rolling on a training forum like this, because it is populated by many new/first-time dog owners, who could potentially take the advice and try it on their own dogs, which could result in serious injury to the dog and/or the owner. This would also be a LIABILITY.

Thus, regardless of how you or we feel about it, we DO NOT advise alpha rolling on this forum. This would be why I don't think you'll find a moderator on here who is "super pro-alpha rolling".

How would it be a liability? I'm not telling this person use it, I'm telling them that it's worked for me, and it's only a suggestion, as with everybody else's suggestions on this forum. I'm not telling this member to do it or else, which is what everybody is implying pretty much.

There's nowhere in the forum rules that I've read about not suggesting alpha-rolling, whether mods like it or not, I'm not going to stop training my dog this way, and if somebody asks about it, I'll share my thoughts, why not? Isn't this forum made for suggestions and assistance to other dog owners who feel their dogs need further help? Or should we all just refer everybody to "professional dog trainers", much like alot of members do on these boards.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but I've had a hard day and with all this accusing me of punishing my dog by pinning her to the ground is kinda ridiculous, especially since I have nowhere once mentioned that I punish her whatsoever. If the mods want to delete this or ban me, then by all means, all the power to you, and I appologize if you think I'm being un-realistic but I thought I was allowed to pitch in my 2 cents, as is everybody else, without being judged.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

How would it be a liability? I'm not telling this person use it, I'm telling them that it's worked for me, and it's only a suggestion, as with everybody else's suggestions on this forum. I'm not telling this member to do it or else, which is what everybody is implying pretty much.

There's nowhere in the forum rules that I've read about not suggesting alpha-rolling, whether mods like it or not, I'm not going to stop training my dog this way, and if somebody asks about it, I'll share my thoughts, why not? Isn't this forum made for suggestions and assistance to other dog owners who feel their dogs need further help? Or should we all just refer everybody to "professional dog trainers", much like alot of members do on these boards.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but I've had a hard day and with all this accusing me of punishing my dog by pinning her to the ground is kinda ridiculous, especially since I have nowhere once mentioned that I punish her whatsoever. If the mods want to delete this or ban me, then by all means, all the power to you, and I appologize if you think I'm being un-realistic but I thought I was allowed to pitch in my 2 cents, as is everybody else, without being judged.

I never said you suggested it. I simply said that is why WE THE STAFF do not advise it, and advise against it.

And "alpha rolling" is a form of positive punishment. By a behavioral definition, positive punishment is adding something negative to the environment to decrease a, unwanted behavior. A person would "alpha roll" their dog in an attempt to decrease unwanted dominant behavior. So, yes, if you are using alpha rolls for training, in the way that they are usually described in books and training videos, you are, in fact, using a form of positive punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Check out the part about "Reinforcement, punishment, and extinction." It should help explain better.