[ar3151]

i tried that pin thing 1 time, just cause it came up the past couple of days. its not something i have to do really. dont really like to do it. either.

i have started looking at the dogs and using hand commands now, i got all 4 rowdy ass dogs to all sit, by just lowering my hand as if i was telling them down. worked well

and to come i whistle to get attention and pat my leg a few times and walk in the door from out back and 4 dogs come running in.

glad to see we can all discuss things.

[battlemonkey]

yeah, being on the same page is awesome, especially that we're all looking for one thing in common...

About the pinning thing, I have been using it for about a month on Jesse cause she's very strong willed (is that even a word...lol) and thinks she's still the pack leader, but only when we see other dogs or she's behaving badly around the cats, other than that, I don't use it when training or anything, so I hope nobody is thinking that. I also like Cesar's motto "Exercise, discipline, affection, all in that order". I think a tired dog is a good dog that will do whatever you ask of him/her, and that way you can give them lots of love for doing a good job!!

[ar3151]

right on, i praise the hell out of them for doing good and man they know they did good. now if i can just take care of the digging part.

[MegaMuttMom]

Aren't you glad it's working? All it took was a little change-up in the routine. I can't believe all this discussion of pinning the dog. It would be a rediculous response to the issue you are dealing with and could have changed so much between you and your dogs. Thank you for discarding that advice.

[ar3151]

lol i love my doggies! yeah that discussion got carried away.

i need to post up some pics.. hmm

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

About the pinning thing, I have been using it for about a month on Jesse cause she's very strong willed (is that even a word...lol) and thinks she's still the pack leader, but only when we see other dogs or she's behaving badly around the cats, other than that, I don't use it when training or anything, so I hope nobody is thinking that.

Strong willed? No. Poorly socialized? Yes. This is what I mean by dominance theory being a mind virus. You see your dog act a certain way, therefor the dog must be vying for a higher place in the pack hierarchy, therefore pinning becomes acceptable.

Whether you use it during training or not doesn't matter. How any why you use it is, and perhaps the reason your dog exhibits poor behavior in these situations. If you understood that the dog was poorly socialized (not necessarily your fault), does viewing the dog as wanting to be the "pack leader" benefit the dog? I guess if the dog is being pinned, the behavior does stop, for that moment, but has it solved the real issue? Likely not.

[Ixala]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

I think I found something that works.

That's great!

While it seems true that dogs like routine, being present with them, rather than following either scientific or anecdotal "ordained methods", generally gives us humans far more chance to work in harmony with our dogs!

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

Jesse cause she's very strong willed (is that even a word...lol) and thinks she's still the pack leader,

LOL. My girl's got a strong will and personality too! Our house would be a zoo if I hadn't set consistent limits and boundaries with her. As strong willed as she is, however, I really believe she is relieved to have a trusted leader in me ... takes a lot of responsibility and pressure off her!

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

About the pinning thing, I have been using it for about a month on Jesse cause she's very strong willed (is that even a word...lol) and thinks she's still the pack leader, but only when we see other dogs or she's behaving badly around the cats,

There is a very real downside to this when you do that in the presence of other dogs or cats. From the dogs point of view he gets punished/pinned when a dog (or cat) gets close to him. This is how you train dogs for pit fighting...punish them in front of another dog...make the other dog the cause for all his pain and suffering. He doesn't think the one inflicting the punishment is Alpha at all. From the dogs point of view, the best thing to do is get rid of the other dog (or cat) which will stop the punishment before it happens. The dog is just reacting...not reasoning.
The more you do this, the worse it gets...not better.

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

There is a very real downside to this when you do that in the presence of other dogs or cats. From the dogs point of view he gets punished/pinned when a dog (or cat) gets close to him. This is how you train dogs for pit fighting...punish them in front of another dog...make the other dog the cause for all his pain and suffering. He doesn't think the one inflicting the punishment is Alpha at all. From the dogs point of view, the best thing to do is get rid of the other dog (or cat) which will stop the punishment before it happens. The dog is just reacting...not reasoning.
The more you do this, the worse it gets...not better.

i am just trying to learn more myself, but how do we know it makes things worse?

i do agree with the not doing that in front of other dogs, i can see what you mean how that would not be good. might make them want to do what you did to other dogs.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by ar3151

i am just trying to learn more myself, but how do we know it makes things worse?

i do agree with the not doing that in front of other dogs, i can see what you mean how that would not be good. might make them want to do what you did to other dogs.

Let me use a more common example to try and explain this as it produces the same results. Walking your dog on leash. Your dog sees another dog and starts acting up. You jerk the leash trying to get the dog to stop/settle down. You do this every single time you see another dog (because your dog is still acting up) and you jerk even harder..maybe even add some scolding.
Soon the dog is acting out even more...now lunging, growling...becoming impossible to take for a walk. You soon stop walking the dog because your dog is 'dog aggressive'. (He's not...he was 'taught' to react that way).
Getting home, out of sight of the other dogs and then giving leash corrections would be absolutely useless...it wouldn't teach a thing.
Neither will pinning the dog later...away from the other dogs.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by ar3151

i am just trying to learn more myself, but how do we know it makes things worse?

And also, to use physical punishments you have to know both the severity that is required of the punishment and the timeliness that's required of the punishment. The average dog owner knows neither, and poor communication with the dog only exacerbates the problem.

[ar3151]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

And also, to use physical punishments you have to know both the severity that is required of the punishment and the timeliness that's required of the punishment. The average dog owner knows neither, and poor communication with the dog only exacerbates the problem.

well actually that should apply for any type of punishment, physical, psychological...etc.

right on, which why i dont dont abuse mine, lol, actually "never did". but there is no long term proven examples?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by ar3151

well actually that should apply for any type of punishment, physical, psychological...etc.

Absolutely, but to err with physical punishments is tantamount to abuse.

but there is no long term proven examples?

In today's political climate, no. But I'm sure some can be found dated in the 40's and 50's.

[fightingfame]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

This isn't really something that should be ignored. Dominance can be something that might trigger a fight one day should another dog come around and try to do that to her. It's a behavior that should be stopped, and what the other member has suggested is a good idea. One-on-one training is a good way to have your dog focused on you.

Also, when the humper is humping the humpee (sorry, had to...:P), I would suggest pulling her off and tagging her to the ground in a submissive pose so that the less dominant (sorry, don't remember which dog is the dominant one here) one is standing beside her, letting her know that she is above her and this behavior will not be tolerated. A quick hand bite from you and gently pinning her to the ground might let her know that you are the boss and not her. At this point, she is letting you know that she is the boss by being dominant, since you cannot do such a thing, she knows she rules the roost.

Maybe somebody else has some input on this.

Best advice Ive read in this post. A lot of people need to understand that you must treat dogs like what they are dogs. Most people try to discipline their dogs like their a child. Treat the dog like your the leader of the pack and there behavior is not right. The above technique does work and lets the dominant female know whos the leader of the pack. Only do this when it happens or is "triggered". Bump here hind quarters with ur foot (to get attention) then lay her down as stated above until she relaxes.

Cheers
Brandon

[rosemaryninja]

Originally Posted by fightingfame

Best advice Ive read in this post. A lot of people need to understand that you must treat dogs like what they are dogs. Most people try to discipline their dogs like their a child. Treat the dog like your the leader of the pack and there behavior is not right. The above technique does work and lets the dominant female know whos the leader of the pack. Only do this when it happens or is "triggered". Bump here hind quarters with ur foot (to get attention) then lay her down as stated above until she relaxes.

Cheers
Brandon

If you'll read through the last few pages of this thread you'll understand why Alpha rolling your dog often leads to more problems rather than cures the problem. Alpha rolling is a technique that may work only as a last resort. Most people try to train their dogs with this technique when their dogs don't really need it, and a less physical method would have sufficed. And when a dog that doesn't need to be rolled gets rolled, a lot more behavioural problems pop up.

So no, I am not going to Alpha roll my dog, nor do I foresee a need to ever do so.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by fightingfame

A lot of people need to understand that you must treat dogs like what they are dogs.

But we are not dogs, and do not communicate like dogs. Are you suggesting that the dog will be able to interpret our poor dog-like communication, and that will be enough to settle our position in the pack?

Treat the dog like your the leader of the pack and there behavior is not right.

How about treating the dog like he's influenced by his environment. And who's in control of his environment? The "pack leader." So guess who's behavior isn't "right" and needs to change? The "pack leader's". You say to treat the dog like a dog, yet you state we should give the dog morals? That sounds very anthropomorphic to me, and contrary to your statement about how we should treat dogs.

The above technique does work and lets the dominant female know whos the leader of the pack.

The original question wasn't about whether it can work...even a broken clock is right twice a day. The original question was, is it appropriate? And then a follow up question, is it appropriate for novices? Or do you also carry the same caveat Cesar does with his show?

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

So no, I am not going to Alpha roll my dog, nor do I foresee a need to ever do so.

I'm so glad that through the mudiness, of at least, my diatribes, you have a clear understanding of it all.

[battlemonkey]

If people want to "alpha roll" their dogs, that's their decision, and nobody should tell you otherwise. The reason I do it to my dog, is because she's gone way overboard with trying to rule the house and our walks, and that's the only thing that seems to have worked. I've spent hundreds, even thousands of dollars on different dog trainer techniques, even one-on-ones with trainers, and none of them have worked. Each trainer had a different way of trying to help us, and nothing has changed, so while watching Cesar's techniques, I tried them on my own and it's been working so that's why I use it.

I agree, it's not for everyone and you must have a strong will to do so in order for it to work. But, hey, if it works for you, why not? I have a very strong, very stubborn and dog-agressive hound, and a single "pop" of the leash doesn't help, like trainers will train you to do, so I've tried a different method, and that's worked for me, as it might or might not for others.

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Let me use a more common example to try and explain this as it produces the same results. Walking your dog on leash. Your dog sees another dog and starts acting up. You jerk the leash trying to get the dog to stop/settle down. You do this every single time you see another dog (because your dog is still acting up) and you jerk even harder..maybe even add some scolding.
Soon the dog is acting out even more...now lunging, growling...becoming impossible to take for a walk. You soon stop walking the dog because your dog is 'dog aggressive'. (He's not...he was 'taught' to react that way).
Getting home, out of sight of the other dogs and then giving leash corrections would be absolutely useless...it wouldn't teach a thing.
Neither will pinning the dog later...away from the other dogs.

So what you're telling me is to praise my dog when we're on walks when she lunges at other dogs? Or to get rid of my cats because my dog gets hyper and tries to play with them moreso than they enjoy? Fat chance of that happening, I'm sorry.

I don't "jerk" my dogs leash when we're walking past other dogs, she wears a Halti, and we simply keep walking and I don't talk to her at all, which doesn't entice any reaction from her, for the most part. Mind you, we've just started doing this so it's still something we're working on, so it's still not 100% but it's getting there. My dog has not been confined to my house, or "trained" to be dog-agressive. She was raised on a farm with hundreds of cattle and barely any dogs around. When we moved to the city is when she finally realized "hey, there's more dogs in this world" and wanted to devour them all. I have never said "I'm not going for a walk ever again because my dog hates every other canine", I would never do that. I don't pin her away from the other dogs, she always gets a "hand bite" from me when she's acting up around other animals, not when she's at home behaving, so not quite sure what you mean by that since I thought I explained that earlier, if I didn't, I appologize, my mistake for not making that more clear.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

If people want to "alpha roll" their dogs, that's their decision, and nobody should tell you otherwise.

Whether one chooses to alpha roll their dog at home is one thing, recommending it to someone else is another. When someone mentions *not* to do it, it's with good reason. To silently object to this recommendation, is an approval. I'll not be silent.

The reason I do it to my dog, is because she's gone way overboard with trying to rule the house and our walks, and that's the only thing that seems to have worked. I've spent hundreds, even thousands of dollars on different dog trainer techniques, even one-on-ones with trainers, and none of them have worked. Each trainer had a different way of trying to help us, and nothing has changed, so while watching Cesar's techniques, I tried them on my own and it's been working so that's why I use it.

Were the trainers certified? If so, by whom? The major reason training techniques fail is due to lack of owner compliance. More so than the actual technique.

I have a very strong, very stubborn and dog-agressive hound,

Calling a dog stubborn is being anthropomorphic. Being dog aggressive has nothing to do with stubborness. Your dog is poorly socialized (again, not necessarily your fault), but calling the dog stubborn is incorrect, and lends itself to an out of place training protocol.

So what you're telling me is to praise my dog when we're on walks when she lunges at other dogs? Or to get rid of my cats because my dog gets hyper and tries to play with them moreso than they enjoy? Fat chance of that happening, I'm sorry.

I believe that was you're inference, not Tooney's. A systematic desensitization and counter conditioning protocol would better fit your dog's behavior than alpha rolling.

so it's still not 100% but it's getting there.

How are you testing it?

[battlemonkey]

I was being more than 100% compliant with all my trainers suggestions of training my dog. I'm testing the training method while out of the house, while on walks, and when I'm myself asking things of my dog. If my dog listens to me, then I'm making progress, because she was barely listening 2 months ago, so that's proving the effectiveness for me. Whether or not anybody else wants to believe it, that's their own decision.

I know my dog is not socialized well, and I'm working on that as well. We go to the dog park where she I keep a close eye on her but don't interfere in anything that happens unless another owner who obviously baby's their dog starts complaining that my dog, being dominant, is chasing hers, than I take my dog out of the situation so as to not make anybody angry or upset over my dogs actions, which I know is not right, don't get me wrong, but some owners are babies themselves, like their dogs, and can't accept the fact that some dogs are dominant, some submissive, plain and simple. There have never been attacks made at the dog park being started by my dog, always by other dogs (mainly little yappy things that are babied and coddled by their owners and border collies that try and herd and nip everything in sight).

I think to each his own when it comes to raising their children, or training their dogs. If you ask for my suggestions, that's totally cool, I'll give them to you. But I think it's been mentioned before, that everybody has a way of doing things, and not everybody will agree with it and I've come to terms with that. But to say negative things about the way I train my dog is not just wrong, it's plain rude! I have never once made fun of or poked fun at the way somebody was training their dog/s. If you want to spoil your fur-babies, by all means do. Does a dog know if he's being lugged around in a 1000$ Gucci bag? No. Does a dog know whether or not his dog food cost 20$/bag or 75$/bag? No. Does a dog know whether or not you're his leader or follower, bet your sweet hiney he does.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by battlemonkey

I'm testing the training method while out of the house, while on walks, and when I'm myself asking things of my dog. If my dog listens to me, then I'm making progress, because she was barely listening 2 months ago, so that's proving the effectiveness for me.

May I suggest a better way to test it? Count the number of dogs you encounter, and count the number of times you have to alpha roll your dog. Total the counts every month and take note of the distance from the dog, and weigh it by the distance. If the ratio of encounters versus alpha rolls drops. Alpha rolling is an effective punishment. If the ratio of encounters versus alpha rolls stays level, or increases. Alpha rolling is not an effective punishment. If you chart your progress this way, only then can you say alpha rolling is effective for *you* and *your* dog. But I doubt by aplha rolling alone, you'd make any progress. But again, not listening is *not* a sign of status seeking.

We go to the dog park where she I keep a close eye on her but don't interfere in anything that happens unless another owner who obviously baby's their dog starts complaining that my dog, being dominant, is chasing hers, than I take my dog out of the situation so as to not make anybody angry or upset over my dogs actions, which I know is not right, don't get me wrong, but some owners are babies themselves, like their dogs, and can't accept the fact that some dogs are dominant, some submissive, plain and simple.

Chasing other dogs is also *not* a sign of dominance. It's evidence of poor socialization, perhaps even motivating to the dog.

I'm not clear on what other dog owners have to do with your dog's behavior.

There have never been attacks made at the dog park being started by my dog, always by other dogs (mainly little yappy things that are babied and coddled by their owners and border collies that try and herd and nip everything in sight).

Again, I'm not sure how other owners treat their dog has to do with your dog's behavior.

But to say negative things about the way I train my dog is not just wrong, it's plain rude! I have never once made fun of or poked fun at the way somebody was training their dog/s.

If you think I'm making fun of *you*, you do not understand my intent.

Does a dog know whether or not you're his leader or follower, bet your sweet hiney he does.

By your own definition yours doesn't know, correct? Do you know where the term "pecking order" derived? It came way of studying chickens. Out of all the animals, the chicken is the most widely studied animal on social hierarchies. At first glance the chicken pecking order appears plainly linear. You have the "dominant" chicken on top, and every other chicken has it's place in the hierarchy. Pretty cool huh? Kinda supports your belief, doesn't it? Curiously though, if you separate all these chickens and a month later bring them back together again, they form a new hierarchy, and the "dominant" chicken no longer rules the roost. If "dominance" were a character trait wouldn't the "dominant" chicken always be at the top of the pecking order? What does it mean that a new hierarchy developed after the separation? Two things... One, "dominance" is not a character trait. And two, what defines the pecking order is the relationship.

I don't know about you...how you treat your dog really is your prerogative, but I never want my dog, or any dog I handle for that matter, to question whether they are in a pecking order or not. I assure you my dog is neither babied nor looked at as a subordinate. She's my teammate, and that's what I advocate...this *is* my intent.