[MoreSushi]

he hasnt actually bitten anyone (yet). but we've come pretty darn close. i try not to walk him during the day because pre-schoolers will be out all over the fields and playgrounds like ants over sugar. when my dog (a shiba, consider large for his breed, about 30 pounds) sees a group of young children anywhere between the ages of 4-8, he will stroll over in the most innocent and friendly manner.. just enough to make me think he just wants to sniff them.. he waits... waits for all the kids to gather around him... he lures them in with his fluffy tail, pointy furry ears, big watery eyes and stuffed animal face... wait until they are alll around him... then ROARRRR! he KIRks out just when me and the children thought it was safe and getting confortable and howls so loud it strikes fear into anyone nearby.. girls screams on top of their lungs, some fall backwards, some break out into tears, once a boy got so scared he tipped over on his bike while he was in the middle of paddling. what do my dog do then? he casually strolls away slowly like nothings happened- with a very distinct smirk in the corner of his lips.

this only happens with groups of young children. this does not happen with a young child alone, in fact he has no interest in anyone, and he avoids group of people. hes now on a harness for better "handeling" in public and we avoid all children. if a sitatuion where we cant help being around children my boyfriend and i will announce loudly "please dont stick your hand out at him" "please do not pet" "danger danger danger". someone, please, how do we discourage this behavior?

[Scraps]

wow, I could understand your frustration. we all want our dogs to be social animals. sorry, no advice to be given here. just want to suggest obedience class though. my pup growls at himself in the mirror and at other dogs. that is quite a problem since I want to get him a lil doggy friend. best wishes.

[tirluc]

ok.....just was working (still am with the "fine tuning") w/ a BC/Aussie mix w/ somewhat the same issues (only w/ all people and most dogs).....the previous owners were going to put her to sleep 2 mo ago as they couldn't get her under control......now, 2 mo later, she is out at the DP, off leash and playing w/ all the dogs and having her freedom


this is what was done......when the dog "charges" the group of kids you take the dog and put her on her side, hold her in a down and allow/have the kids, one by one, come up and pet her.......do not allow her to growl or get up.....i would suggest a Halti collar to be used for control of the head and muzzle.....keep repeating this in all situations and get her into as many as you can.....however you do need to "read" your dog and know when she is getting stressed and pull her out b/4 she gets to this point, as the stress will only exaccerbate the situation....

you don't have to be harsh, just firm......keep her under control at all times....


if you need more "detail" let me know.....and, so you know, i have been working w/ dogs for 30 yrs and this has been "vet approved" and successful

[MoreSushi]

tirluc- thanks for the great advice! i guess the only thing holding me back from taking action to correct my dog is that this doesnt seem like a "global" problem. my dog doesnt "charge" or growl or try to bite these kids, he just does this quick snap thing then follow by a loud howl when u least expect it. more rather he is just as normal as he can be when he gets near them all the way until he does.. whatever that he does. in all seriousness my dog just *really* enjoy scaring the crap out of children whever he has a chance. because he doesnt do this near anyone else or in any other situation. i dont know how to explain it, but i will say i believe that my dog is smart enought to enjoy this twisted little game of his.

[tirluc]

but, regardless of his intent now, if it is not checked can, and probably will, escalate into something more and someone gets bit.......you even said in the original post that "he hasnt actually bitten anyone (yet)." and if you don't want him to eventually bite, i'd not allow this behavior now.......not to mention the fact that everytime he does this to a child he is causing the child to react out of fear which can cause them to do something to cause him to bite......which leads to fear of dogs for a child.....which is not kool......

no dog has the right, for whatever reason, to charge a person and act aggressively......people see this, don't understand that your dog "just has a sense of humor and is having fun" and someone will eventually call the police or animal services and this can lead to some very drastic measures.......Shiba's are not real social animals to begin w/.......they tend towards one person......and you are setting yourself up for some heartache down the road......

i still say get this stopped now......and if you have to, get a behavior specialist to help, they will be able to assess/assist the situation........

this is Maggie, w/ my 2 girls in the middle and her "sister" on the right

[Cbaker]

I definatley wouldnt alpha roll your dog and then have random kids pet him,
use caution when doing that. Start with someone you sorta know, you really dont want him to snap (and connect) with some kids.

I would recommend getting a trainer in your area to work with him.

[opokki]

To me, it seems like maybe he is not comfortable with groups of strange children crowding around him. I don't think he is just reacting to amuse himself. But his reaction works to diffuse an uncomfortable situation so he is likely to repeat the same reaction in the future.

I would probably handle this by first making sure everyone involved is safe...maybe even desensitizing him to a muzzle if neccessary. Then I would, as Cbaker mentioned, start with children you know. I would make "great things happen" (extra tasty treats, happy voices, butt scratches, or anything else he really likes) while they are present and end these great things when they leave. First 2 children, then 3, then 4, ect. Only increasing the number of children if he is not reactive towards the previous number and reducing the number if he reacts.

[MoreSushi]

i know deep inside i know what you guys are saying is right. i must admit tho after reading all the replies that this seems to reflect into a much bigger problem then i previously imagined it would be. i guess i'm just beyond puzzled by my dogs random behavior pattern. he absolutely loves my youngest sister and her group of friends, they are around 12yo and he whines like a baby whenever he has to leave them. once he jump right in to the middle of her birthday party and loved the attention. so being surrounded by kids doesnt seem to bothe rhim. this is completely a different behavior he displays on the playground. why? see what i mean by not a global problem? should i still correct it? he knows perfectly when he should do what, we have been teaching him all this strictly since we got him as a pup, but hes stubborn as a mule and we DO correct him and control him when he get crazy EVERYtime. hes sweet and sour, it just depends on his mood at the moment. help.. sigh.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Cbaker

I definatley wouldnt alpha roll your dog and then have random kids pet him,
use caution when doing that. Start with someone you sorta know, you really dont want him to snap (and connect) with some kids.

I would recommend getting a trainer in your area to work with him.

i'm not talking an "alpha roll" (there is no aggression on the owners part; no intimidation, no making the dog afraid)......this is laying the dog on it's side and keeping it there in a submissive state till it is calm and having the adult/child/animal that it is targeted on to come up and pet and treat it under supervised conditions.......no i would not do this w/ a child that was afraid of the dog and i won't even do it w/out the parent there so they will need to set up scenarios to begin w/......3 mo ago Maggie could not be in the same general vicinity as children and today my granddaughters can feed her/ walk her/have her do tricks....the only time she has to be brought back under control is when the girls are running and that is nothing but her herding instinct coming out; she still doesn't try to bite them anymore.......
also, i honestly believe that Maggie will be able to go for her CGC in Dec and pass.....

and, yes, i would HIGHLY recommend getting a behaviorist in there to help w/ the problem and i should have mentioned that in the first reply back.....

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by MoreSushi

this is completely a different behavior he displays on the playground. why? see what i mean by not a global problem? should i still correct it? he knows perfectly when he should do what, we have been teaching him all this strictly since we got him as a pup, but hes stubborn as a mule and we DO correct him and control him when he get crazy EVERYtime. hes sweet and sour, it just depends on his mood at the moment. help.. sigh.

yes, still correct this.....or make absolute certain that he is never in a situation that triggers him again (which is, in effect, impossible)......the better he behaves in all situations the better off he is......what if he, per chance, got loose and found a group of kids and DID bite one.....what then?

[Cbaker]

Tirluc
Well firstly I must correct myself as you said in a "down" posistion, so this would be dog laying with belly to the ground. So that would not be rolling the dog.

But Alpha Roll as defined by wikipiedia (and various other sites)

An alpha roll is a controversial technique used in dog training to discipline a misbehaving dog. It consists of flipping the dog onto his back and holding him in that position, sometimes by the throat. The theory is that this teaches the dog that the trainer is the pack leader (or alpha animal).

Pretty much any bellyup position (even if not having all 4 feet in air) where you are over the dog and making him submit would be considered "Alpha roll" or a slight variation of alpha roll.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Cbaker

Tirluc
Well firstly I must correct myself as you said in a "down" posistion, so this would be dog laying with belly to the ground. So that would not be rolling the dog.

But Alpha Roll as defined by wikipiedia (and various other sites)

An alpha roll is a controversial technique used in dog training to discipline a misbehaving dog. It consists of flipping the dog onto his back and holding him in that position, sometimes by the throat. The theory is that this teaches the dog that the trainer is the pack leader (or alpha animal).

Pretty much any bellyup position (even if not having all 4 feet in air) where you are over the dog and making him submit would be considered "Alpha roll" or a slight variation of alpha roll.

my "submission" down......dog on side w/ you at it's back NOT holding the throat and TALKING to the dog in a calm manner (other than an initial "ENOUGH" or the equivalent) and, yes, holding them there till they relax.....if this means holding the head down or putting them in the position again so-be-it......but if you watch Dog Whisperer (which, by the way, i have been doing this far longer than the show has been on the air) he uses the same technique......none of it even remotely resembles an "alpha" position....it is for a calming aspect and to get the dog to realize that the behavior is not acceptable.....i have used it on fearful dogs to bring them around to a trust level as well......yes, in the aggressors position there is force (if necessary) but not threat.....

Maggie will now invariably, out herself in this position as she realizes that she has control of herself better.....

i wish there was a way to show you what i mean and then you'd understand the differences

[Curbside Prophet]

Let me first say that I'm not a proponent of alpha rolling or manipulated submissions. I did at one time believe there was value in these acts, but I now have a different point of view based on some studies I've read from Dr. Ian Dunbar and personal observations. The studies suggested that dogs...and we're not talking about wolves here, but an alpha dog does not use physical force or physical manipulation to get a subordinate dog to submit. The subordinate dog does it willingly without force by reading the alpha dog's presence...or say dog language. I've witnessed this myself with Elsa. I've done such a good job with "ouch" and nipping that she will frequently roll on her side when she accidentally nips me in play. Therfore, the conclusion I've made is that the Dog Whisperer or other handlers who manipulate a submission do so only because of the language barrier between human and dog. Whether manipulated submissions by humans is completely wrong or right, I still don't know, but in my mind it should only be used as a last resort by someone who's experienced with it.

[Cbaker]

You can really call it whatever you want, its still the same psych theory and action/ result that people were looking for from the alpha roll.

[tirluc]

i will stay w/ it as i have seen the results of it and not one of the dogs that i have workd w/ or any of mine (even tho i have never used it w/ them, no need to) have all acted as if i were their bestest friend after the training is done.....the "alpha roll" as you call it is based on gaining fear.....what i use is based on gaining trust......i also have vet back up on this and have been told by many that my dogs are the best behaved/mannered dogs they have seen.....and not one of them is afraid of me; they go thru doors first, they don't always wait for me to tell them they can move after being put in a stay, and they are quite happy....and this includes Maggie--she belongs to someone else but the way she acts you'd think she were mine

i know that this is not for everyone (i have been told this by others many times that it is cruel and inhumane, but i've also been told that disciplining my kids by groundings is as well) and i would not recommend anyone that doesn't know how to read a dogs body language to do it themselves.....it should only be used in extreme cases, as well, and this i consider to be an extreme case....if this dog bites some child we're talking euthanasia......you tell me which is the better of the 2 options.....

[Cbaker]

Im not against the tactic of alpha roll, it has its places. But just in my opinion whenever your putting a dog on its side or back to get it to "relax" or "Submit" its the same principal and therefore I would consider it the same move.

Curbdside prophet is also correct, that other dogs dont force them into the position they just do it automatically when the "alpha" is staring them down. I still belive that it is instinctual and even when forced has a similar effect. (This is only my belief, I really dont care what studies show) I do encourage everyone to come up with their own beliefs, as thats all dog training is.. what that trainer belives.

I have used it to induce a submissive state, like when my pitbull nipped at the pomeranian. I rolled him over and held her on the floor allowing the pomeranian full sniff of her without any repercusions.

People will say every move is good, or bad ect ect.. I truthfully belive every tactic has its place. From Positive Reinforcment , to even the most severe of compulsion training.

You dont train your yorkie to sit, by hanging him from a choke chain. Just like you dont correct an attack dog that wont release, by offering him a play with his kong. It is always best to start with the lest negative and most rewarding situation and then work your way down.

[tirluc]

another way to look at the idea of having the dog to submit is.....who is supposed to be the "alpha" to begin w/...people (and i don't mean just the owner of the dog, i mean PEOPLE) or the dog......in todays society especially, for dogs to be accepted in the public they need to realize that people are their "superior" (if you would, and for lack of a better term).....i want to know that my dogs can/could go anywhere and not have a problem w/ them...they are citizens in the community and this kind of behavior would not be tolerated by a human being (scaring the crap out of children, or whatever)


so the dog has a sense of humour....do these kids think it's hilarious? i don't think so.....get it under control now b/4 he bites someone

[opokki]

Originally Posted by MoreSushi

this is completely a different behavior he displays on the playground.

If it only occurs at the playground, that is exactly where you'll need to practice. Your other option is to avoid taking him to the playground.

[Lorina]

when my dog (a shiba, consider large for his breed, about 30 pounds) sees a group of young children anywhere between the ages of 4-8, he will stroll over in the most innocent and friendly manner.. just enough to make me think he just wants to sniff them.. he waits... waits for all the kids to gather around him... he lures them in with his fluffy tail, pointy furry ears, big watery eyes and stuffed animal face... wait until they are alll around him... then ROARRRR!

Is your dog on a leash when he strolls over to the kids? Why is he allowed to stroll over?

I know you want your dog to be friendly under all circumstances, but as someone who also has a cute, fluffy, attention-getting, but somewhat unpredictable dog, I just wouldn't let him get surrounded by kids. For starters, the kids should know (and if their parents didn't teach them, maybe you could clue them in) that it's not safe to approach dogs they don't know. No matter how cute and poofy and teddy-bear-like. I do walk my dog in a park with a playground, but I wouldn't want him - or any dog, really - in the middle of a group of children unless he's had a ton of training and passed certification to be a therapy dog.

[fubintien]

Whether or not one subscribes to the idea of the alpha roll or not, it should be noted that The Dog Whisperer show only shows Cesar Milan using his version of the technique in the most severe of circumstances, and never recommends that an inexperienced dog owner should use it. He echoes this thought in his book. It should also be noted that if a dog is exercised properly, not given positive reenforcement at the wrong times, and respects his owner as leader, aggression towards humans and other dogs will naturally not be a problem.