[Scraps]

I have been potty training my puppy of 4 months to eliminate in the bathroom on a pee pad while he is leashed and tied up. The thing is, he will not eliminate in my presense or anybody else's. Sometimes I keep him there for 15-30 minutes at a time before he will eliminate. Sometimes he whines. I want him to be able to go right away or within 5 minutes when I take him there. I'm afraid he might feel that taking him to the bathroom is punishment. I'm not sure if that is healthy and is there a better way to do this? Please enlighten me.

[opokki]

It will be difficult to train him if you aren't present to provide positive feedback when he does eliminate in the correct location. I would confine to prevent elimination (dogs naturally don't like to eliminate in their living space) rather than to encourage it. I would then take the dog to the potty pad or outdoors to eliminate and allow him about 3 mins to go. If he goes, he gets 30-60 mins of free time. If he doesn't go, he is confined (but occupied, not punished) until the next potty break. Repeat. This gets the dog in the habit of going quickly in the correct location, prevents accidents and gets him on a regular elimination schedule.

[scott]

Hey Scraps
Didn't I see you post to “Kennel Training...Yes or No” by Alas 542000.
Doesn’t this thread contradict your post to that thread? Just a thought.

With regards to this thread, I don't know that many people that can go the bathroom when their told to. I don’t know about you, but even at my age I’m still not all that comfortable with the concept of going in front of others.

I think what we were taught was to be able to hold it and we were taught where to go. When I think about it, my mom also taught me to plan ahead a bit, to go now while I had the chance before that long car trip. Maybe these are the issues you need attempt to communicate to your little guy. Just another thought.

[Scraps]

Scott, my post in that thread was not an advice, it was a story of my experience. Thanks for expressing your thoughts.

I really don't like the idea tying him up during every elimination. I did try staying there with him for about 1-2 minutes but his start laying on the floor. I'd always try to shift his attention as to why we are in the bathroom. He just won't go in front of me and I don't want the poor pup to hold it for so long. However, I will try confinement.

[Dulce]

I really wouldn't encourage your dog to eliminate IN DOORS. That just tells your dog that it's ok to go in the house-bathroom or not, pee pad or not.

Patience is KEY with a new puppy--or any dog of any age for that matter.

[Scraps]

Originally Posted by Dulce

I really wouldn't encourage your dog to eliminate IN DOORS. That just tells your dog that it's ok to go in the house-bathroom or not, pee pad or not.

Patience is KEY with a new puppy--or any dog of any age for that matter.

he haven't had all of his shots yet, therefore, indoor training is the only way for now.

[dmarzean]

Scraps,

I think I would find the time and money to get the shots. Having a puppy is a lot of responsibility. It is better to train the dog the way you are going to want him to act in the long run than it is to temporarily train him and then what, retrain him?

Anyhow, back on the topic at hand...

A puppy is a young animal that is only just beginning to have control over the sphincter muscles that control his functions. This control is weak, and has been building up largely due to the fact of his unwillingness to soil his own quarters. Your job now is to concentrate his attention on further control, and to extend his unwillingness to soil his sleeping area or anywhere else in the house.

Any pup younger than 3 – 4 months old will not have enough muscular control to do what you want him to. Almost any attempt to house-train a puppy before he his physically ready will only confuse him and set back all your training efforts. The most practical method of training involves paper training. He first learns that newspapers spread out on the floor are the place to go. Then his attentions are progressively directed to the outside.

Despite popular lore, housebreaking is neither a hard or extensive job. Ten days to two weeks will see the worst of it out of the way. Keep in mind that the job requires a constant vigilance, but if you do it right, there is a great feeling of accomplishment and it’s done for his lifetime.

You should exercise control over the intake as well as the outgo. The puppy will be fed at regular intervals and he should be watered only at specific times. Give him his water bowl about an hour after he has finished eating and let him during as much as he wants. About half an hour after the watering, start watching or take him out for “time to go.”

The ideal housebreaking room is the kitchen as it usually has a linoleum floor and in most cases a back door leading outside. Wherever you choose as his room, put down several layers of newspaper or training pads are now available. When he relieves himself, praise him, and pick up the sheets he used right away.

If he doesn’t use the papered area, take him gently over to the spot, push his nose at it, but not in it, and tell him “No, bad dog”, and then take him outside immediately. Have faith in him and praise his accomplishments, if you’ve done everything patiently and well up to now, you may never have another moment of trouble with him.

Hope this helps,

[Scraps]

Originally Posted by dmarzean

Scraps,

I think I would find the time and money to get the shots. Having a puppy is a lot of responsibility. It is better to train the dog the way you are going to want him to act in the long run than it is to temporarily train him and then what, retrain him?

He just got his last set of puppy shots yesterday. It was the watiing period between shots that's why I would not take him outside.

He still won't go in front of me. I tried staying with him in his elimination area for 2-3 minutes then I'd take him back to confinement if he doesn't go for a couple of times, he still won't go in front of me. I know for sure that he has to go, so I leave him in the bathroom on a leash tied up and whallah, he goes a couple of seconds after I leave. I'd go in praising him and I let him play afterwards. I guess the dude is shy? Anyhoo, I'll training him to go outside now, see what happens then.

Sometimes he runs away from me like I'm some sort of monster! Took him to the vet yesterday and he growled at another dog, just like he growls at himself in the mirror. I can't wait to take him to obedience class now that he's all shot up.

Thanks for the advice. Puppy training can certainly be frustrating but it's rewarding when accomplished.

[Cbaker]

Have you scolded, corrected or scared your dog when he has used the bathroom in the house infront of you ? Possibly a reason he might not go infront of you as he could be afraid of correction.

From Dmarzean.

If he doesn’t use the papered area, take him gently over to the spot, push his nose at it, but not in it, and tell him “No, bad dog”, and then take him outside immediately.

I really dont see how pushing his nose at it will help, I personnaly would make some sort of noise to interupt the flow of things. Scoop him up and run him outside to the area he is suppose to urinate in.

And even worse, if you didn't catch him in the act and do this, he will definately have no clue as to why he is being punished.

[scott]

There is a difference between discipline and punishment.
My question to the thread is "What possible reason could you have to punish a four month old puppy?"

This is an excerpt from an article by Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
In the disciplining of dogs, just like in physics, every action has a reaction and for training purposes these may not be beneficial! If you overreact and severely scold or scare the heck out of a puppy for making what is in your mind a mistake, your training is probably going backwards. With house training this is especially difficult for them to understand as they are carrying out a natural body function. Carried one step farther is the idea of rubbing a puppy's nose into a mistake he made, whether you caught him or not. In the limits of a puppy’s intelligence, please explain to us the difference of rubbing his nose in his mess he left in your kitchen an hour ago versus the one the neighbor's dog left in the park two weeks ago. If the dog were smart enough to figure all of this out, the only logical choice would be to permanently quit going to the bathroom. Punishment rarely speeds up house training. Often, it makes the dog nervous or afraid every time it needs to go to the bathroom.

We will give you a perfect example of how this kind of disciplining causes long-term problems between a dog and his owner. A client makes an appointment to discuss a housebreaking problem. They are hoping that on physical exam or through some testing we can find a medical reason for the animal's inability to successfully make it through housebreaking. They readily admit their frustration with the dog. The fecal and urine tests reveal no problem. We assumed that would be the case and have no intention of charging for those services. In the examination room, the pup is showing a lot more interest in the veterinarian than he is in his owners. The animal's eyes are almost saying, "Please kidnap me from them." When the owner reaches down to pet the dog on his head, the pup reflexively closes his eyes and turns his head to the side. The dog reacts as if he were going to be hit. What this tells us is that the dog has been punished for making messes in the owners' absence. During this punishment the puppy is not, and we repeat, the puppy is not thinking about what he might have done two hours ago. He is not thinking that he should not make messes in the house. The animal is not even thinking about the messes.

The classic line that usually goes with this scenario then comes up "When we get home we know he has made a mess because he always sulks or runs and hides!" The dog is not thinking about some mistake he may have made. Rather, the pup has learned that when the people first get home, for some reason he has yet to figure out, they are always in a bad mood and he gets punished. The puppy has decided that maybe he would be better to try to avoid them for awhile so he does try to hide. In this particular case, discipline, misunderstood by the puppy, has caused him to fear his owners and this will probably affect their relationship throughout the life of the dog.

This is not the whole article however I believe it does reflect some of your issues?

[Scraps]

I have not taken him outside to eliminate yet. However, he is doing very well not to eliminate anywhere in the house besides the bathroom, where I put his pee pad. If he ever does accidently eliminate elsewhere, I'm afraid to interrupt him to take him outside since I live on the second floor and running down the stairs might frighten him or worse off, I might trip and kill us both! Okay, maybe that was a bit dramatic but I do want to train him to eliminate both inside and out.

I might have yelled out a "no" once or twice but never scolded or punished him when he accidently eliminated at the wrong spots. That was 3 weeks ago when I just got him. It was the first week that was really tough. He was eliminating everywhere! I'd put him in the bathroom afterwards for a minute. I guess he must have thought that was punishment? How would I reverse this?

[sheltieluver]

I guess I'm confused as to why you are tying him up and having him eliminate INDOORS. Starting by having him eliminating indoors will only lengthen the time it takes for him to understand he should be eliminating OUTdoors. This will only confuse him.

[Cbaker]

Ok just going to recap on this real quick:

4 month old dog (or 16 weeks) that you have had since week 12.

He wont use the bathroom infront of you.
I would assume this was from sort of previous correction or he could just be nervous. I would recommend switching to a sound to interupt instead of "No" No is a word we want when its something bad, yes peeing in the house is bad but peeing in front of you is not. So we dont want "no" assosciated with the going infront of you. Just scoop him up and *walk* dont want you to fall down stairs ! To the proper place for him to go if he urinates or deficates
I would treat the dog with a "jackpot" (Bunch of treats he likes) and praise lavishly when he goes in the proper place infront of you.

You want him to go to the bathroom inside and outside:
This is really difficult. How do you choose whether to take him outside or inside during a accident?
This is part of his learning on where to go. I would really stick to ONE.. either outside or in.

Here are what I think some of the advantages are of both:
Inside - Normally for small dogs, not much bathroom interaction on owners part once trained, except for cleanup. Dogs not outside (less contact with fleas, ticks ect) Good for handicap or elderly that have movement problems. For me it seems easier with female dogs.

Disadvantage of inside: The Smell, Seperation Anxiety the dog may shred the pads, or papers.
Cleanup. Now for my puppies my males would NEVER make it on the dang paper. He would walk over to it pee but it would miss the entire pad ! The female usualy squatted right down and it was ok. What do you do with fecal matter? Alot of times the dogs will start in the right place but move slightly to shake it out / off and then that doesnt make it on the pads.


Barking at other animals, Growling at own reflection:

I would assume he has some sort of fear issue or slight agression to the other dogs. This really has to be seen in body languge, so its hard to decipher over the internet. Regardless of which,hes a puppy and this should be easily corrected.

The dog is in his sociliaztion period so he needs to be introduced to other animals, people & objects. To make him socialized group classes, walks in neighborhoods, petsmart ect would be good for him.

[Scraps]

It is a higher preference to train him to eliminate indoors due to my living situation, second floor of an apartment. I read somewhere that it is okay to train them to go both inside and out.

Inside: I set up his pee pad on a wizdog, where he cannot step on his own pee, in the bathroom. When he poos, I just scoop it up and drop it in the toilet (not in his presence). He’s very good at not stepping on the poo. I change his pee pad on a daily basis so the stinky-ness is not a problem. To be honest, having him pee indoors is A LOT easier, since I the pups pees a lot. He has these squirts of energy where he’d run around like a mad dog, and then of course needs to pee.

Outside: I want to get to him eliminate in the early evenings when I get off work and have more time and patience to walk him outside. Once a day to walk outside to eliminate is OK, right? My mornings are too crazy to take him out. Afternoons, I’m not there, my sister is but she won’t do that for beans, so that leaves the early evenings when there are still light outside.

I’m definitely signing him up for obedience classes. I’m spending more good times with him, training, playing, cuddling, to get him to forget about the meanie that makes him eliminate, haha. I’m also using the gentle leader once a day to get him to “stay” and he’s making some progress. I let him in my room more often so that he gets use to looking at himself in the mirror. I occupy him with a bone and he chews away right in front of the mirror. Yay! No more growling in the mirror! Now the goal is no more growling at other dogs.

Thank you all for taking the time to help this poor soul train her 3rd puppy. Some history, my last two pup died of parvo and giardia only days after adoption. I was so heartbroken for awhile. Thank GOD I didn’t give up on dogs. I love my Scraps so much!

[sheltieluver]

First of all, be aware that it will take much longer for him to be housebroken if you first teach him to go INdoors and then later on OUTdoors. I'm glad you signed up for obedience classes - I think it's a great idea.
Although it can be a pain, I had two shelties and lived in an apartment for years on the 3rd floor and they were never trained to go INdoors. I made the effort of walking down three flights of stairs with two dogs to get them to go outside, and they were trained within a week.
Good luck to you!

[Cbaker]

I would just stick to the inside potty training if thats what you want, make it easy on the dog. If he goes outside thats OK to ! As long as he knows where to go inside.

Just think about when he gets bigger, so do the puddles so does the smell and the mess.

A problem I had with my bigger dog was that he was peeing in the right spot (ontop of the pad) but none of his urine made it on the pad, he was shooting over it.

But once a dog is full grown I would imagine if you trained it outside you would only have to take him out 3 times a day. (Morning, getting home, bed time)

[Scraps]

Good news: Yesterday, I took him outside to eliminate for the first time. He actually peed on the grass in my presence! There were kids around too. It took him 30 minutes, not bad. I tried to get him to poo, but no luck yet. We'll just take baby steps for now.

He will be full grown around 10lbs or less. We'll see how big his crap will get then. I think the gap between morning and getting home is too big for his poor bladder, but that sounds good though! Only 3 times a day is wonderful. Sometimes he doesn't poo and pee at the same time so the bathroom visit was more often. When I take him outside, how long should I stay out until he poos? If it takes an hour every time, it'll drive me nuts! But I'll take my chances.

Other good news: He saw 3 other dogs while we were outside and didn't start growling. He even butt noses with a female dachshund! It was so cute.

[Scraps]

I think training him to go inside would be a lot easier since he needs to go after he sleeps, hard play, exercise, and eats. He sleeps a lot, runs around like crazy at least once a day, I'll be taking him up and down the stairs and walks outside for his execise, he eats 3 times a day so that's like 6 bathroom time a day. That's a lot of bathroom time in a day! How do you guys do it?

[Cbaker]

Crate training is how I did it. But his bodily function schedule hes a young pup like you said after eating, sleeping, playing ect. But @ 4 months old he should be good for about 5 hours.

Getting him on a schedule is the biggest thing, restricting water access helps control the random urination. (dont deprive the dog, but restrict access to a open water bowl)

If he doesn't use the bathroom he goes in his kennel for like 20 minutes. (I would only stand out there like 5-10 minutes max. Then try again. Soon as he goes he should be good for a few hours.

Luckily for you there is tons of information on crate training, and potty training so please feel free to read up some really good articles ( I belive there are some lurking on the forums).

Sounds like your on the way to a happy ownership scraps ! So much luck to you and don't lose focus !

[mydogiszoe]

Please don’t train your puppy to potty in the house! Anywhere in the house! My grandmother did this, and it is a disaster! She wouldn’t let the puppies outside because they hadn't had their shots but now... I can’t even describe it. Just walking in her house, it like hitting a brick wall... its so discussing, I can’t go over there. And even though she got very angry when I mentioned this, it has caused her and my grandfather A LOT of health problems. They were pretty healthy for their age until they got the puppies, since they've been put on 10 medications for various things. I know the dogs couldn’t have caused all their ailments but there was a HUGE change in their health. But now the dogs WILL NOT go to the bathroom outside. They’re about 3 years now and it’s horrible. My grandparents went out of town for 3 weeks and I watched the dogs for them. I tried everything I could to get them to start potting out side, but they refused. I even left them out for an entire night and day (please don’t tell my grandparents I did that) and the second they came back in it was like a mine field. Every room had some kind of pile. I figured they couldn’t hold it that long and eventually would go outside but they wouldn’t. Then my sister stayed a month at their house, she came home because she was getting flu like symptoms and ended up hospitalized for 3 days. I have no doubt that it was from staying in a house where the dogs are allowed free potty where ever they please. I’m probably making it sound worse than it is, but they have to have their carpet and padding replaced every year. I’m really sorry for the story, but I feel really strongly about this.