Dog on Dog Aggression

Whitney · 10-10-2006, 06:29 PM

Hello,

I just adopted two husky X's (siblings, either mother and son, or brother and sister) from the SPCA in town last Monday. Before I adopted the two (Kaisha and Pride), I brought my husky X (Melody) to the SPCA to see how they got along. They did great, and they are doing okay... I suppose.

When I first brought them home, they played in the backyard a lot. Kennel training has been going very well, I'm quite impressed. The two from the SPCA were considered "wild" (unhandled by humans, never been in a house etc) when they arrived at the shelter in June. They are now very good with people, and can be walked on a leash with minor pulling. They are still afraid to go up the stairs, and getting them into the car is another story -- or post!

Anyways... Feeding time was... well, Hell at first. They couldn't be fed within the same area because Melody would want to eat their food. Now, this is okay, as long as they each have their own bowls and aren't crowded (I made that mistake the other day, unfortunately. I put their bowls too close to one another). Feeding time is okay now since I put their bowls a good distance from one another. Kaisha and Pride are very good together, and can share water or food out of the same bowl. Sometimes they growl when the other dog wanders to one anothers bowl. They don't growl at me at all, I can out my fingers in their bowls with no negative reaction, if a reaction at all. I can also take away toys and bones with no fear.

Today, I fed them bones that I cooked myself. I put Kaisha and Pride in the garage (we don't keep the car in there or anything dangerous) to eat theirs, and then Melody had hers in the backyard. When they were done, I took the bone from Melody and Kaisha, but Pride wanted to carry his around. I finally got him to drop it, but then Melody and Pride both wanted it. I stepped on the bone thinking that if they see that I have it (technically), that it won't matter... but they started fighting pretty badly, then of course Kaisha jumped in and just started biting Pride and Melody. It was horrible. I spent a good amount of time trying to separate them while the neighbour gawked (probably thinking that my dogs are savage).

I need some help on how to deal with this. I already have one battle wound from separating them (Melody bit me by accident when I was trying to separate her and Pride). I'm determined to not give up on my rescued dogs. They still play fine, even after the fights, but I don't want them to hurt one another over food and treats. There are no animal behaviourists here in town. Soon it will be winter, and it will be too cold for them to always eat outside. Any tips on how I can get them to be peaceful around food would be greatly
appreciated.

-- Whitney

blackgavotte · 10-11-2006, 10:31 AM

Whitney, you may always have to keep them separated while eating, and with treats etc. Even bonded dogs can be possessive about food and toys, its a natural thing in the dog world. If they are husky crosses, it will likely never be too cold to feed them outside, especially if they chow down quickly, it won't hurt them to be fed and then come back in. Always keep the treats and bones etc, monitored and doled out while they are in their separate areas and take them completely away when done with before you put the three back together. Having three dogs requires some management, especially when one is a longer resident and not accustomed to, nor fully dominant over the latest two. Incidentally, I would not be leaving these three dogs alone together if you go out, especially not yet. Maybe the day will come, maybe not. If the two stay bonded together, it is entirely possible that one day an arguement could start over just some simple little thing and then the two could gang up on your original dog. Don't take chances. Sometimes a fight can start over just a look from one dog to the other, or feelings can be seething and brewing, that we don't notice, until one day all hell breaks loose. It sounds like you are being very intelligent and perceptive so far, just keep that up and accept that you may always have to continue some of this management. Good luck with them and bless you for rescuing two large mixed breed dogs, they need so much help at these shelters.

Whitney · 10-11-2006, 12:57 PM

Thanks,

I am really hoping that things will continue to be positive. The two that I have adopted seem more interested in listening to me, than Melody, who I have owned for two years. They are just so shy, but training is definitely in the process.

Feeding went great last night, and there was no fighting. I watched out by the door just to make sure nothing went wrong. They are husky crosses, and they do have thick fur, but it gets to -45*C in late December, and January at times. It would be nice to feed them in the house. Yesterday they ate about a meter from one another, which I thought was just perfect. Any closer would probably set them off, which is understandable. I'm not going to push it.

I am just hoping that maybe I can train them that after they are done with bones or treats, that they are done... They are mine now, type of thing.

Anywho, gotta go to my English class, then home to my fur babies =D

Alpha · 10-13-2006, 12:06 PM

So, it's not neccessarily dog on dog aggression. THe problem is when food is around. So, Food Aggression.

Correct me if I'm wrong, some points:
-Melody is the dog you had before, also a Sibe X (female)

Kaisha and Pride (male, female) are the adopted dogs

-Melody is the instigator of these scuffles about food

How do Kaisha and Pride react when Melody acts out aggressively?

How old are all of these dogs?

Food aggression is unacceptable in my household. You act out aggressively over food, you don't get what you wanted. Bone/high value canned food/treat etc.

It's too risky to have a food aggressive animal. Do NOT put up with this behaviour. ALTHOUGH, as mentioned above, it is possible that this problem will never be 100% cured DEPENDING on the age and temperment of all of the dogs involved.

First, I'll explain how my two dogs "eat". Roxy=2 year old Rott/dobe, Hades 1 year old APBT. A few months ago, they shared a food bowl. Never any problems. We did begin to have some issues when we switched over to a feed schedule with high value canned food. Roxy, the dominant dog, would either push Hades out of the feeding area, or if Hades even looked in her direction she would snap. (not bite but chase him off)

What I did?:
-they eat in the same area, we'll say about 3-4 feet away from each other
-I stood between the two dogs. If either even looked at the other, verbal correction before the other dog even knew what had happened. Than redirection back to their own food if they didn't do it on their own.

IMO, what's most important is in slow steps desensitzing every dog. Getting them all used to eating together, in a comfortable safe situation. WHat YOU need to do as the alpha, is reassure all the dogs involved that NO ONE is going to come and steal their food.

Start in the same room, perhaps 10 feet away. Stand in the middle between all dogs. There are three, so if you have someone that can assist you for the first bit just in case. If any dog even LOOKS at another dog you redirect them. When food is in front of them, they eat what's in their bowl that's it.

Eating in the same room has it's benefits, slow eaters will eat faster if there's competition, plus it's much more convenient.

Do the same with bones. My guys have beds. When they get a bone, they go to their bed. If either dog goes to take another dogs bone, *I* intervene. I am alpha, I make the rules.

Roxy, an aggressive bitch and Hades a pitbull, a breed notorious for dog on dog aggression, and we've never had blood shed. They eat in close proximity to each other, bones, food, toys, treats etc.

Good luck!

ps- How long have you had these two new dogs? Did I miss it?

If you haven't had them long, it's imparative that you curb this food aggression issue with Melody. THe longer you let it go on, the worse it will get, and if you ever decide to change it, it will be nearly impossible. Learned aggressive behaviours are dangerous to cure.

blackgavotte · 10-13-2006, 08:26 PM

" different strokes for different folks " If Whitney is not yet experienced enough, there is a danger of her getting severely bitten, or the dogs injuring one another if she cannot dominate them properly. These are three adult dogs, two of which are bonded and new to the home. They are not small dogs. Eventually Whitney may indeed be able to feed them together, or closer, or whatever. But often these adaptations take time, and safety for Whitney and her dogs should come first. The blending in of these three dogs will likely happen, but it should not be rushed, and does not need to be rushed. Just because three adult dogs can't be fed side by side or close, does not mean she is a failure as the leader. There can be some grey areas in dog ownership and management. As long as in the final picture, dogs and owners are okay with the arrangement, there is no need to put oneself or the dogs at risk. Thats my take on it. There are many ways of owning and managing dogs. No one person has all the answers, all the time, for every dog and situation. That's the beauty of forums.

Alpha · 10-13-2006, 08:46 PM

I never once stated that she is a "failed leader". And yes, I am completely unaware of her dog knowledge.

But that does not change the fact that food aggression is completely unacceptable.

Never once did I say that this change has to happen immediately. But I do believe that she should begin working on it immediately. The longer you let aggression issues continue, the harder AND more *dangerous* these issues become.

If Whitney is not well versed in pack leadership and at least basic obedience, IMO having three Sibe X's is the first wrong decision. (Whitney I'm not saying that you aren't) Sibes are known for being extremely high energy, willful and aggressive dogs.

If you aren't completely sure of how to go about desensitizing them, the best advice anyone can give you, is to seek professional help. A trainer or behavioulist. IMO a good trainer should be able to give you a lot of the information that you need.

Food aggression, depending on the dog, can be very simple to fix. It does take time. But if you are a strong, confident leader, it can be a breeze.

blackgovette- To each their own. I for one am most definitely not comfortable with a food aggressive dog. Food aggression and resource guarding do NOT happen my house. It is much to risky to own three dogs, of which at any given time will fight over a bone, treat, food etc. That is HIGH risk. If the problem was something more like "car rides" for example. The answer is much more simple. Don't take them all for car rides together.

Food, treats and bones are at least for my dogs a daily part of life. And worrying everyday about my own two pets fighting is unneccesary stress. The problem can be solved. And I for one am not stating it should happen just like that. It will take time, but working on a serious issue like this needs to begin during the first few weeks of introducing these new dogs, before aggression becomes a learned behaviour in the household.

blackgavotte · 10-13-2006, 11:09 PM

I once taught obedience for a few seasons., and one thing I had a tough time swallowing was that there can be a learning curve for anyone who may not be very experienced with dogs, or people of a gentler personality themselves, it can be intimidating and sometimes impossible to be as forceful with a dog as I knew they had to be. Alpha, we don't know Whitney. We don't know her experience. She has three adult dogs, two are not fully bonded to her yet, and the one who is, is probably having some feelings of jealousy at least. I don't want Whitney injured by making a mistake that can injure her, at this stage of the game. I also want to assure her that she will not be a " failed leader " if she chooses to manage this problem for now, rather than force issues too soon. I do not feel that this has to be settled now, it can be managed for a bit while she gets to know the two new dogs better and they get to know her and the original dog. I am not about to engage in an arguement when obviously both of us are trying to give her some help, even if we may see this issue differently. Whitney can sort through all the advice she can and should listen to, and I will not say anything more on this particular thread.

Cbaker · 10-14-2006, 12:35 AM

I was observing one of the petsmart obediance classes and they were discussing the breeds and dog on dog agression. Mostly dealing with how to break them up.

The instructor told them to pull the dog by the tail, and if the dog is in the zone far enough that even picking his hindlegs off the ground by the tail will not injure the animal and protect the person doing it.

Anyone seen this or heard this before ? As I can see grabbing the collar ect could lead to a unexpected bite even from your own dog.

Whitney · 10-14-2006, 03:28 PM

Just a quick response to Cbaker. I wouldn't want to pull my dog by the tail, but when I did grab my dog by the scruff of her neck in my attempt to get her collar I did infact recieve a rather painful bite just by putting myself close to the other dogs mouths. At the SPCA we used water, and we always had 'emergency water' in large buckets to break up fights if there wasn't a hose. I'm not sure if it's a good thing to spray a dog with a hose in order to break up a fight, but it worked well in the one situation where I had to use it on two large male dogs. After they were sprayed, after a few seconds they stopped and I got enough time to isolate one of the dogs. As I have also noticed, it's almost impossible to physically separate two fighting dogs. You may get one dog off of the other, but it's very difficulte to keep the other dog from coming back and attacking. I'm a small person, so maybe that explains my difficulty, but I doubt that a 6'3" 220lb man would find it any easier.

My experience with dogs is well... probably not very good. Adopting two dogs was probably a bad choice, but that doesn't matter anymore. I am happy with them, and willing to learn more in order to make them both, and including Melody, into well-rounded and well behaved dogs. Kaisha and Pride, the adopted pair are getting better and better each day, but I realize that they still do not trust me. I can pick them up (Unfortunately, sometimes they are afraid to come inside the house and although they are husky mixes, I'd rather they slept inside, or at least in our heated garage), check their teeth, touch their paws and belly, pull lightly on their ears etc with no negetive response. I am working on gaining their trust, and also trying to prevent too much jealousy on Melody's end.

They are bonding as a pack as well, but I haven't established my dominance quite yet. I don't leave toys, food or chewies around for them to eat whenever they want, but I feel as if this is not enough to establish myself as Alpha. They can now share water out of the same bowl, but feeding time is still a bit iffy. They wander to each other bowls sometimes, and bark at one another, but there hasn't been any fighting. I don't feed any of my dogs table scraps but Melody's eyes go hard during dinner, and she just glares at the other two. My father used to feed her table scraps depsite me asking and begging him not to. Thankfully, I no longer live with my parents and I am now able to train her not to beg at the table for food.

Melody's training is slim to none. She knows how to sit, lay down, shake a paw and speak. She comes sometimes, maybe 20% of the time if I have something yummy in my hand. She wasn't Alpha in my parents house, our other dog Cinnamon was. But, her position in our last "pack" was definitely higher than me. It was absolutely futile to try and establish myself as being higher than her, my father was very stubborn and insisted on leaving food in their bowls when I went to school and to work. This past week and a half has been a lot of research and I have been applying new rules. But... getting two dogs has changed a lot of my rules, because now I need to think more like a dog than ever. It's very exciting, and I'm enjoying this learning experience, despite some of the downs I feel that there will be more ups in the future.

As for huskies, I love them very much. Melody is 2 and a half, and coming from the SPCA, Pride and Kaisha do not have a definite age. Pride is about two, and they say that Kaisha is as well. I would not say that they are older than 3.

At this moment, I don't trust them with bones and toys in the same room. If they can eat their kibble in the same room, peacefully... or at least without confrontation, then that is good enough for me. I'm more interested in baby steps. I have been watching them eat, and sometimes sitting outside while they eat just to make sure nothing happens.

All of this advice has been very helpful, thank you!

mabart1 · 02-09-2007, 01:29 PM

If you are alone and trying to stop a fight between big dogs (Huskies), pulling one by the tail or legs will not do it. The other dog will just keep coming at you. The best advise I got was from Rudy Drexler (Indiana) who is pretty well known for training for police work, obedience, etc. He said to have clear vinegar in a spray bottle set for MIST. (Make sure its on MIST) and mist into the face of the attacking dog. Believe me, it stops the fight. I took some of the vinegar and put it in my eye to see how bad it is, and you cannot ingore it,but it dissipates quickly and leaves no lasting problem. This has been the ONLY way to get Bella to let go of Phoebe. As I said, Bella zones out while clamped on Phoebe. It has been a lifesaver to me. Mabart1