No-bark + field training e-collar?

freki · 08-30-2007, 10:13 AM

My dog is a howler when I leave home. I think she just has a real separation anxiety. Recently my neighbors have complained and even threatened action.

My question...does anyone know of a no-bark/training combo e-collar? If I'm gonna get an e-collar I want one that I can train with as well as teach her to not bark/howl. If there are such things, what's a good one? Thanks.

BoxMeIn21 · 08-30-2007, 10:26 AM

You can't just slap an e-collar on in lue of training. Especially if you think it's SA. Instead I would invest in a good trainer or behaviorist to help solve the issue or you could end up increasing the problem.

I do not have much experience in the way of ecollars, but I do know that they shouldn't fall into un-trained hands.

TooneyDogs · 08-30-2007, 10:33 AM

True separation anxiety is very rare. It involves destruction of property, self-mutilation, urination/defecation, barking/howling, endless pacing. Dogs howl and whine out of frustration when they are denied access to something they see and want. Is she crated somewhere that is quiet where she cannot see people walking? Have you tried leaving a radio on, anti-anxiety medications and more exercise? Also, think about diet. If she's getting mostly cereals/grains in her food, she could have a sugar high which prevents her from sleeping her normal 16 hours a day.

applesmom · 08-30-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freki

My dog is a howler when I leave home. I think she just has a real separation anxiety. Recently my neighbors have complained and even threatened action.

My question...does anyone know of a no-bark/training combo e-collar? If I'm gonna get an e-collar I want one that I can train with as well as teach her to not bark/howl. If there are such things, what's a good one? Thanks.

There is no quck fix and a bark collar is not meant to be used when there is no one there to supervise the situation. Putting a bark collar on a dog with seperation anxiety is only going to make the problem worse and could even cause her to harm herself in an attempt to get away from it. Or it could turn her into a quivering shaking pile of mush who's afraid of everything.

The howling can be stopped with time and effort on your part, but you'll need a trainer or behaviorist to assist you in fitting the training to the needs of your dog. That training is going to begin with leaving the dog for short periods only.

How long is she left alone and how is she confined while you're gone?

BoxMeIn21 · 08-30-2007, 11:57 AM

Awesome advice as always, Applesmom.

freki · 08-30-2007, 06:58 PM

Ok, I'll explain the situation some more.

Perhaps, based on what you guys have said, it's not true SA. She gets very whiny whenever I leave her (whether it be at home or with the groomer), but she does not mutilate, self-destruct, or defecate/urinate.

I work at a hospital and work 12 hour shifts. While I'm gone she is in a 10' x 20' kennel/run. I always leave her with a large bowl of food, a 5 gal bucket of iced water, and a bunch of rope toys (those seem to be her favorite). The kennel is mostly covered and I work nights anyway, so she always has shade from the sun. Also, while I'm gone, my friend/room mate usually lets her out a few hours at a time to play with his dog.

I spend quite a bit of time already training her with positive reinforcement (treats, toys, play, etc), but I want to take it a step further. I don't believe in direct punishment (smacking the dog etc), but I believe I need some form of negative reinforcement to further the training. I don't want to use the collar solely as a quick fix, just an aide in training. Now, can anyone give me a good suggestion?

Curbside Prophet · 08-30-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freki

Now, can anyone give me a good suggestion?

Doggie daycare. Since your dog is unattended for 12 hours a day, this is 12 hours where no form of training can take place. So regardless of what type of training you want to do, there's not much that can be done to prevent the dog from taking up its own hobbies while you're gone. So, IMO doggie daycare is you next best option.

What's your definition of negative reinforcement btw?

TooneyDogs · 08-30-2007, 08:34 PM

Agree with Curbside. The outside distractions are obviously too much for her and it's either Doggie Daycare (not sure if one is available for night hours however) or move her to a quieter place where she can get some much deserved uninterrupted sleep. But, to answer your question directly about collars, the most reliable is the Citronella collar with an 85% effectiveness rating for controlling barking. Most dog trainers do not approve of any anti-barking collar because it only covers up the reasons for barking. The collar never fixes the real issues for barking in the first place. Also, no one will ever advise leaving any type of collar on an unattended dog for the dogs own safety. All boarding kennels are required to remove the collars the second the dog steps into the kennel.

oscars mum · 08-30-2007, 08:51 PM

Maybe you could pay someone your dog knows and trusts to go over for a few days while you go out and stay with him for an hour or so and take him for a walk-if hes tired after a walk he might settle down and rest while you are out.-im no expert just giving you an idea lol =D

Barhund Canine · 08-30-2007, 10:49 PM

The first thing you should consider is health and diet with any behavioral problem to rule anything out. Discuss things with your vet and weigh the options of using medications or not. I don't like to use doggy downers unless it is absolutely necessary.

I wouldn't recomend a no bark collar in this situation mainly because of what has been already mentioned. One method that works really well is leaving the house in small intervals. Example: leave for a few seconds and come back in. Varying the time you come in and out. Say for 10 seconds, then 20 sec, then 12 seconds then 30 secs. So the dog doesn't really know when you are coming and going. Lengthen the time intervals until you hear your dog howling. Shorten the time back up until they stop. Work at that level until you can lengthen the time again. It is best that you don't make a big deal with overly excited goodbye when you leave do to go to work or wherever you go.

Another good option is to take your dog on a good brisk walk before you go anywhere and feed them just before you leave. This drains some of the excess energy and when the eat they have a full belly and it is a good time for a nice long nap. This depends on how long you are gone and what is reasonable amount of time you can let your dog hold it.

Another option is put the dog in their area, crate, room, wherever you usually put them. If you don't use anything like this learning how to use a crate or small room may help your dog feel safer and more comfortable when you do leave. If you do use some thing like this, try using a new spot your pet might not like where they are when you leave. If you put them outside try leaving them inside in a crate or in the bathroom or small if you can.

You can also act like you leave and correct the dog when it does howl. If you try this you will have to really be careful with your dogs temperament and how it deals with corrections. By correction I mean a hand clap and a stern no. Or what you normally use to correct the dog that is effective for you. From what you posted I really can't determine how your dog is. Some people might not like this method. I know this is taboo to the Positive reinforcement crowd. The cause may even came about if you tried to console your pet by petting and talking to him when he first started showing signs of anxiety. Depending on the state of mind the dog is in when you give affection only reinforces that behavior. I have even seen dogs react to positive things as punishment because of how they percieve it and how it was initially applied.

Another option may be to get into a sporting activity like agility, or obedience training, to help build a better bond with your pet. You may just need to do some confidence building exercises.

Try to examine what the situation is and look for things that may need to be addressed to make your pets life more fullfilled. You may have to demonstrate better leaderships skills, add more exercise, be more consistent with rules and discipline. Try leaving a TV or radio on when you leave so your pet thinks someone is around. I don't think doggie day care will work since you work at night and I don't know of any doggie day care that run 24-7

Make arrangements with someone you trust and know that could work with your dog when your not home.

If you still want information and how to correctly use an e-collar go to www.leerburg.com check out Mr. Frawley's site, e books, dvd's, and catalog and weigh the options. You may be able to find other alternatives on his site too.

freki · 08-31-2007, 04:35 AM

A) They don't have doggie daycare where I live.

B) My room mate is home all night/day with the dog as well. He usually goes out and plays with her and his dog for a few hours while I'm gone. She's not left unattended EVER. I'm not that stupid.

C) I run 3 miles with her before and after each one of my shifts and at least daily when I don't work. I think she's getting alright excercise. I also play with her as much as possible while I'm home.

D) Barhund: Most of the suggestions you made I am already doing or have done. I started training her by leaving her in small intervals when I very first got her, and still reinforce it from time to time even when I'm home. I have tried correcting her while I'm home, but it only makes her bark more because she knows when she barks I'm going to come back out to correct her. I've been doing obedience training the entire time I've had her. I'll check out that site you mentioned though.

Just to throw it out too, she doesn't view her kennel as a negative thing. She will go in completely on her own and does not whine when I put her in at first...it's only after a little while that she whines. I've worked with her a lot, and still do, to reinforce that her kennel is not a bad thing. Her kennel area is quiet and has very few distractions that I'm aware of. Our back yard is vinyl-fenced in a fairly quiet neighborhood with very little traffic. There is adequate shade and she always has adequate food + water while she's kenneled.

If anyone else has good suggestions I'd be glad to try them. I'm still getting the e-collar though.

Just another thought for you guys...I leave her with shut door in my room for 30 min + in the mornings while I get ready and she never whines or is destructive. She's just lying down waiting for me calmly when I come back...

TooneyDogs · 08-31-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freki

A) She's not left unattended EVER. I'm not that stupid.

I'm still getting the e-collar though.

...

I think you've made it clear that you feel this is the only option left especially since you're being threatened with legal action and you need a quick fix. You also pointed out several times that you have done extensive obedience. We teach obedience to keep our dogs physically safe and mentally secure; to build trust, confidence and mutual respect for a lasting, strong human/dog relationship.
Anti-bark collars undermine those efforts and are not appropriate for some types of barking.

There are 6 different kinds of barking:
Boredom/Frustration Barking - Typically from the dog chained in the back yard with no access to social interaction and unable to interact with anything...confined and ignored.
Watchdog/Alert Barking - Intruder alert. Dog is doing her job of alerting the pack to a problem. It is the Alphas job to investigate and handle the problem.
On Request Barking - Trained to bark for many reasons..go potty, games
Demand Barking - "I want my food now!"
Warning Barking - Low bark/growl..."I don't like that'!...Back Off!"
Excited/Talking Back Barking - "OK!" Let's go!" "This is fun!"

Why is she barking? I get the feeling that something else is going on especially since she is never left alone.

PhoenixLover · 08-31-2007, 12:59 PM

Right.
I don't really agree on Bark-Collars that much but I did use one ONCE on my puppy just to try and teach her not to bark. BUT, if I were to offer you any advice on the Bark-Collar thing, I would suggest a simple spray collar, simply. Every time he barks it would spray him with a lemon-scented spray, which dogs DON'T like, but there is a downside and that is that you have to top it up every now and then, as one top up is enough for about 10-20 barks.
And if hes a really bad barker you may have to top it up quite often.
But, if you take my advice, hopefully your dog will get the idea and stop barking.
Also when he has learnt. I would suggest leaving the collar on without anything in it for a bit. Just to make sure he knows not to bark but however doesn't know there is nothing in there.
If that works hopefully you can take it off and he might still think he will get sprayed but yeh... I would only advise using a collar as a last resort.

freki · 09-01-2007, 12:10 AM

So update...just figured out a few things. I'm at my mom's farm right now and I have Kenya with me. She's been playing outside all day and is now barking like crazy (not penned up btw). I went outside to see what's going on and she's got a skunk cornered in the trees. I also remember a skunk wandering around behind our back yard fence at nights because when I've let her out to run at nights a couple of times she's gone and found it. Perhaps this is the culprit?

I decided not to get an automatic bark collar, but I did get an Innotek IUT-300 MicroTrainer. I think you guys are right about leaving a shock collar on a dog without having any control, the more I think about it the more I don't like that idea. I'm going to try letting her out back and in her kennel a few hours at a time the nights I have off and just give her a little correction if she barks. I can do this easily because her kennel is right outside my office window. If I can't correctly train her with this unit I'll give the scent sprayer a try.

The only thing I'm worried about is will this teach her to not bark at all? Because right now she barks on command, which I do like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

I think you've made it clear that you feel this is the only option left especially since you're being threatened with legal action and you need a quick fix.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I wasn't going to take anyone's advice. I only said this because I am getting one to help with training, not because I'm being stubborn. I was just wanting people's opinions on a brand/unit.

Spiritguardian3 · 09-01-2007, 12:38 PM

With a field trainer you shouldn't really use it for barking, its hard to catch and correct it properly. Also you should always use the command 'no bark' when you don't want her to bark or 'quiet'. Its tough when your dog barks only when you're not there or thinks your not there lol.

Good luck I hope all works out

TooneyDogs · 09-01-2007, 01:51 PM

[quote=freki;117115]I also remember a skunk wandering around behind our back yard fence at nights because when I've let her out to run at nights a couple of times she's gone and found it. Perhaps this is the culprit?

That's great news! Watchdog/Alert barking is something every dog owner wants their dog to do.

The only thing I'm worried about is will this teach her to not bark at all? Because right now she barks on command, which I do like.

In this case, you really don't want to stop the barking entirely. The problem is how to fix it when it goes over the top. Alpha needs to go out and check each and everytime...a real PITA but, that's our lot in life. We need to say Thank You! for the alert and Leave It, Quiet, SSSHHH or No Bark and perhaps some re-direction to a bone or ball. Once the dog understands that you will handle it (after repeated intervention), they learn to calm down....they don't have to be such a worry wart. With very high prey drive dogs this can be a hard one to control and an e-collar may be necessary.
My dogs learned to totally ignore the raccoon and her babies on our back deck. The raccoons were making nightly appearances and eating the bird seed. The dogs learned to view them as 'normal' and nothing to be concerned about.

Ginny01OT · 09-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Ecollars are excellent training tools when used correctly on the appropriate dog. Before even using an ecollar a professional trainer, experienced with and without ecollars needs to come into your home, meet the dog and assess him. If your dog is a candidate, training with the tool should commence with the trainer. In your situation it does not seem appropriate. Your dog is howling when you are not home; therefore, you cannot make the proper correction with the ecollar when necessary. Your best bet is doggie day care or having someone come in to play with the dog a least for 30 minutes when you are not home.

freki · 09-02-2007, 09:30 PM

Tooney, you're right, I do still want her as a watch dog sort. Usually she doesn't bark when there's something to take notice in though, she just stands at attention with her ears perked....you know the classic GSD stance.

I appreciate everyone's input so far, this is a real learning experience. I should have checked out this forum sooner!

freki · 09-04-2007, 04:24 PM

So I just got the Innotek IUT-300 Microtrainer today and I'm pretty impressed with it. Came with a teaching DVD that shows how to train your dog in basic obedience with and without the use of the collar. Plus Innotek allows you to call them for free with any training questions. Good deal I thought.

I haven't noticed much barking/howling from her lately...maybe my little changes in environment helped curb this...