old vs new in xtreme situation

fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 01:24 AM

my mom recently met my friend's Aussie shepherd, and had heard we needed help from people the dog is unfamiliar with, so she offered to help. we gave my mom a dog treat to give 2 the dog (to associate strangers with good things) but said she didn't like our training methods and wouldn't. my mom later said that the dog needed a smack on the nose with a newspaper, and maybe a choker collar, that the dog thought that it was dominant over the family. she said that it worked on their gsd's, and they also trained her gsd's (when she was a kid) with nose-to-poop and all that.

I know these are outdated methods, we are using positive reinforcement, sitting while people approach and attention on the walker is rewarded with treats. but I still feel like the dog thinks she is boss, and the dog is pretty fat already...

is there some happy training medium, where rolled up newspapers aren't considered a terrible, terrible thing? maybe just a smack on the but to draw the dog's attention away from the stranger she is trying to attack? when she gets into protction mode, I just feel like there's no getting her back out.

Equestiana · 08-19-2007, 01:32 AM

Sometimes things like choke collars are great for training. As long as they are used properly... You should definatly train with positive reinforcement but at the same time negative will be necessary.. What exactly is this dog doing around strangers? Us the dog really shy around new people? Really aggressive?

opokki · 08-19-2007, 02:25 AM

Are you having any progress using your current method?
If so, I would continue doing what you are doing. If you're worried about the dog gaining weight, simply reduce the portion of her daily meals.

Why do you think the dog thinks she's boss?

When dogs react in ways that we find unacceptable or even embarrassing, punishing them just seems like the right thing to do and often makes us feel better. Unfortunatley, while punishment might suppress such behaviors, it is unlikely to make the dog feel more comfortable around strangers. In fact, punishment may actually intensify the dogs' negative feelings towards strangers.

If the situation is severe, your best bet would be to enlist the help of a trainer/behavior specialist who has experience working with aggressive dogs.

Curbside Prophet · 08-19-2007, 09:44 AM

There's absolutely no place for physical corrections in dog training IMO, unless your dog is a known killer or is in an emergency situation. Otherwise, you can still effectively punish a dog without being physical.

If she's being "protective" or "dominant" around strangers this is most likely a fear response and I don't know how anyone can attach fear onto protection of dominance and say yes, this dog needs a whipping. They are so polar in idea that a human must have made this one up.

That being said, and considering your background, I would seriously look for help from a certified professional. If you want it to change and you're willing to work for it, the investment will be well worth it for both you and the dog.

Certified Member Listing of Dog Behavior Consultants at IAABC.org

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fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 10:41 AM

yes, she's extremely agressive/ protective (wich you say is associated w/ fear). that's why I wanted my mom to give her a treat. unfortunately, the professional training is not in the cards. (and by "my background" do you just mean lack of training?) I've given the family pamphlets and showed them websites, unfortunately, they don't think it would help and don't want to spend the money. *sigh*. oh, and she is something like 80 lbs, and needs to lose 15 lbs, how much do you think they should feed her? right now she is free fed IAMS, but I'm trying to get them to switch to a certain amount of innova evo. on an unrelated note, i can't get any good cat food near us, and have hear of feeding cats innova. ?

RonE · 08-19-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzie

oh, and she is something like 80 lbs, and needs to lose 15 lbs, how much do you think they should feed her?

Less.

And free feeding is not a good program for dogs who need to lose weight.

I am free fed and I, too, could stand to lose about 15 pounds.

fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronE

Less.

lol, we got that much ronE

sydney-the-cattle-dog · 08-19-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzie

yes, she's extremely agressive/ protective (wich you say is associated w/ fear). that's why I wanted my mom to give her a treat. unfortunately, the professional training is not in the cards. (and by "my background" do you just mean lack of training?) I've given the family pamphlets and showed them websites, unfortunately, they don't think it would help and don't want to spend the money. *sigh*. oh, and she is something like 80 lbs, and needs to lose 15 lbs, how much do you think they should feed her? right now she is free fed IAMS, but I'm trying to get them to switch to a certain amount of innova evo. on an unrelated note, i can't get any good cat food near us, and have hear of feeding cats innova. ?

As to the feeding part, do you think you could convince them to stop free feeding? This will help with the dog's behavior as well as the weight.

Suggest the N.I.L.I.F training if you haven't already. Unfortunately, your description of the dog owners doesn't leave me thinking there is much hope. If they don't care to invest time or money in the dog then the dog is doomed to continue with undesired and aggressive behavior. Worst-case is the dog will eventually bite someone and will be put down.

I commend your efforts to help this dog as it sounds like a challenge to get the owners to listen. I hope you can get through to them somehow.

fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 02:18 PM

I really think there is some hope, so I guess I'll continue with the posotive stuff, and look into NILIF, but how much do you think they should be feeding her?

TooneyDogs · 08-19-2007, 02:28 PM

It's all about the number of calories. The vet can tell you how many kilocalories she should have in a day to lose weight.

sydney-the-cattle-dog · 08-19-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzie

I really think there is some hope, so I guess I'll continue with the posotive stuff, and look into NILIF, but how much do you think they should be feeding her?

There should be a feeding guide on the dog food bag. I would suggest the low end for her weight until the extra pounds come off and use her proper wieght not her current weight. Feed the daily portion divided into a morning and an evening feeding. Some exercise would also be advised for the dog. If she can't be walked because of her poor behavior then some backyard or indoor games will help.

Thanks for helping with this dog I do think it will pay off in time.

xx aussie shep love xx · 08-19-2007, 08:38 PM

this is the crazy austrailian shepherds owner. our positive reinforcement has payed off, she does not pull us on our walks as much anymore. she also learned how to sit today. she also did not bark at other dogs and people as much either! yay!

fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 08:42 PM

yeah, today after our walk I tought aussi shep etc. all about the NILIF training. I did the first session of sitting for kibble, and I was shocked at how fast she learned. I just showed aussie the forum (:

xx aussie shep love xx · 08-19-2007, 08:57 PM

this is the dogs owner. i feed her once or twice a day, if it is twice it is only one cup each time, if it is once it is 1 1/2. she seems to be liking it, if i have fed her for the day but brings her bowl over to me, (yes she can do that =] ) i will give her a little bit more. it looks like she has lost quite some weight. me and fuzzie take her on walks every night so everything seems to be working. i hope you all approve

fuzzie · 08-19-2007, 10:07 PM

lol, is that why you turn the bowl upside down? anyway, my mom said that were being stupid, making a fat dog fatter, acting like we know everything, confusing the dog, and if we get her to do anything it is just her remembering her puppy class :/ really encouraging, but oh well. oh and she says ur dad says he can get the dog to behave, true? (this is mostly to aussie)

xx aussie shep love xx · 08-20-2007, 09:46 AM

haha no my dad will scare the dog. we are doing pretty much everything right. i dont see anything wrong with out techniques, we dont feed her before the walk, we feed her on it, so she starts to burn off some of the calories. she has lost some weight! she was 65 she is now down to 62! yay

poodleholic · 08-21-2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

is there some happy training medium, where rolled up newspapers aren't considered a terrible, terrible thing? maybe just a smack on the but to draw the dog's attention away from the stranger she is trying to attack? when she gets into protction mode, I just feel like there's no getting her back out.

Yes: have your mom roll up a newspaper and hit herself over the head! LOL
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The worst thing you can do is to get aggressive with an aggessive dog. You need professional help with a dog who has dog-to-human aggression.