[blackgavotte]

It seems to me that most buyers of young puppies are missing an all important step in the housetraining of their new baby. A young puppy should not be expected to learn crate training as potty training. They can't and shouldn't hold their functions as long as people think they should. A young puppy can often urinate every hour or two. The first stage for a puppy should be an enclosure... not a crate. Either an exercise pen, (make sure he can't get over it or move it around if he is of a large breed,) or a built enclosure. Accept the reality of using some newspapers or whatever, for the first few months of a puppy's life.. its just the way it is. He will naturally start to wait a bit, around 4 months or so, if not sooner, and depending on how often you are getting him out. He should be taken out the very last thing at night and the minute you open your eyes in the morning for instance. When you have seen that for about a week or so, he seems to have dry papers when you get him out first thing, you can start crate training then... before that you can accustom him to a crate for short little visits with toys and treats inside, but don't use that for potty training too early...

[all4thedogs]

While I agree the crate is not for long periods, especially with a young puppy, I crate train and house train and the same time. Dogs naturally do not want to potty in their den, so the crate is perfect. You still have to take your puppy out every hour or so (more often for small breeds), they come out, go potty, have play time, eat/drink, potty again and back to the crate for a while. My Great Dane was completely housetrained by 9wks old, I used a crate from 6wks (I rescued his entire litter, so I had him from 3wks). He still loves his crate, and has only had 1 accident since (he is now 22 months).

I disagree with allowing the dogs to potty in the house, even on paper. This can be confusing to the dog when you start to want them to go outside. I have never used paper of any sort in housetraining, and have never not been able to housetrain a dog.

Unfortunatly, to often the crate is abused. It is not punishment for your dog, it should always be a happy place to be. Puppies should NEVER be crated for more then an hour or two at a time. And I personally will not crate my adults dogs more then 6hrs. My dogs are not reliable enough to have free roam of the house, so its not as much of an issue, we do still use the crate while traveling.

Another key is to be sure your dogs crate is the correct size, not to big or to small. During housetraining, the crate should be large enough for your puppy to stand up, turn around and lay down.

[alundy]

I think the main problem that gets people is when they bring home an 8-wk old puppy and then don't understand why it eliminates in the crate while they're at work for 8 hours.

[Cheetah]

I believe the general rule is to take the age of the puppy in months, add one, and that's how long they're able to hold it in a crate.

[blackgavotte]

Originally Posted by all4thedogs

While I agree the crate is not for long periods, especially with a young puppy, I crate train and house train and the same time. Dogs naturally do not want to potty in their den, so the crate is perfect. You still have to take your puppy out every hour or so (more often for small breeds), they come out, go potty, have play time, eat/drink, potty again and back to the crate for a while. My Great Dane was completely housetrained by 9wks old, I used a crate from 6wks (I rescued his entire litter, so I had him from 3wks). He still loves his crate, and has only had 1 accident since (he is now 22 months).

I disagree with allowing the dogs to potty in the house, even on paper. This can be confusing to the dog when you start to want them to go outside. I have never used paper of any sort in housetraining, and have never not been able to housetrain a dog.

Unfortunatly, to often the crate is abused. It is not punishment for your dog, it should always be a happy place to be. Puppies should NEVER be crated for more then an hour or two at a time. And I personally will not crate my adults dogs more then 6hrs. My dogs are not reliable enough to have free roam of the house, so its not as much of an issue, we do still use the crate while traveling.

Another key is to be sure your dogs crate is the correct size, not to big or to small. During housetraining, the crate should be large enough for your puppy to stand up, turn around and lay down.

Mostly very good advice, though for many years I trained my dogs to paper first, then to outside. Never had a dog which did not make the transition successfully, in fact sometimes when I knew it would be a long day away, I would and could leave papers down and the dogs would use the papers when and if they needed to, never ever had a problem with confusion, and it made my life much easier, and theirs, too no doubt.

[blackgavotte]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I believe the general rule is to take the age of the puppy in months, add one, and that's how long they're able to hold it in a crate.

don't understand what you are saying, please explain fully. Do you mean if a puppy is 2 months old, and you add 1... are you saying then say 3, or then say 12... either does not make sense... 2 months old puppies cannot always hold for 3 hours, especially during the day when there is more activity going on and they are awake, and sure as shooting a two month old puppy cannot hold for 12 hours... also smaller breeds often seem to want or need to urinate more often than larger breeds... its about the metabolism. And each dog is different, a generalization does not always apply.

[all4thedogs]

Originally Posted by blackgavotte

Mostly very good advice, though for many years I trained my dogs to paper first, then to outside. Never had a dog which did not make the transition successfully, in fact sometimes when I knew it would be a long day away, I would and could leave papers down and the dogs would use the papers when and if they needed to, never ever had a problem with confusion, and it made my life much easier, and theirs, too no doubt.

I have not personally seen paper training work, but I do believe it can. I have been around large and giant breed dogs, and I can not have my Great Dane peeing in the house, even on paper. It would be a disaster!

I know my neighbor had trouble with her Paps. They were trained to use newspaper, and if newspaper was ever left on the floor for any amount of time, thats where they went. Even in the paper was in the living room. Her male had to "mark" any new paper, so it was always a risk bringing paper into the house. Now, I know this is not the NORM, but I found it disgusting.

[lipsmakerx]

for what it's worth, my 12 week old puppy is doing GREAT with crate training. he howls/cries when i leave but he has not had a single accident in the 2 weeks he's been crating. i leave him in there 4 hours at a time because i come home for lunch and let him out, feed him, play with him, etc. he also sleeps in there for about 7-8 hrs without problems, he's out like a light as soon as i put him in around 10pm and doesn't wake or whine until 5 or 6 each morning.

.... the only problem is that he has thrown up in there twice from getting himself all worked up during the day.

[blackgavotte]

I am so glad for you that it has worked out so well, it does not always go so smoothly. The fact that you come home at lunch and let the little guy out, is hugely important. If you find he is vomitting more, and seems stressed, more and more, you may have to then go to an enclosure. A surprisingly high number of dogs are claustrophobic, and who can really blame them for getting uptight when they are living in a plastic box for sometimes 18-20 hours a day, and at a very young age. Continued good luck..

[Da Greek's Wife]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I believe the general rule is to take the age of the puppy in months, add one, and that's how long they're able to hold it in a crate.

Originally Posted by blackgavotte

don't understand what you are saying, please explain fully. Do you mean if a puppy is 2 months old, and you add 1... are you saying then say 3, or then say 12... either does not make sense... 2 months old puppies cannot always hold for 3 hours, especially during the day when there is more activity going on and they are awake, and sure as shooting a two month old puppy cannot hold for 12 hours... also smaller breeds often seem to want or need to urinate more often than larger breeds... its about the metabolism. And each dog is different, a generalization does not always apply.

I was confused/wondering about this too..... Can somone please clarify???

Thanx!!

[workingdog]

Originally Posted by all4thedogs

While I agree the crate is not for long periods, especially with a young puppy, I crate train and house train and the same time. Dogs naturally do not want to potty in their den, so the crate is perfect. You still have to take your puppy out every hour or so (more often for small breeds), they come out, go potty, have play time, eat/drink, potty again and back to the crate for a while. My Great Dane was completely housetrained by 9wks old, I used a crate from 6wks (I rescued his entire litter, so I had him from 3wks). He still loves his crate, and has only had 1 accident since (he is now 22 months).

I disagree with allowing the dogs to potty in the house, even on paper. This can be confusing to the dog when you start to want them to go outside. I have never used paper of any sort in housetraining, and have never not been able to housetrain a dog.

Unfortunatly, to often the crate is abused. It is not punishment for your dog, it should always be a happy place to be. Puppies should NEVER be crated for more then an hour or two at a time. And I personally will not crate my adults dogs more then 6hrs. My dogs are not reliable enough to have free roam of the house, so its not as much of an issue, we do still use the crate while traveling.

Another key is to be sure your dogs crate is the correct size, not to big or to small. During housetraining, the crate should be large enough for your puppy to stand up, turn around and lay down.

I agree 110%

[blackgavotte]

Someone somewhere decided on a formula for how long a puppy can be expected to "hold it " in a crate. I had never heard this one, which was why I wanted clarification. I can only tell you that it cannot be a generalization. Many puppies, at say 8-10 weeks, especially in the smaller breeds, can pee as often as every half hour. Less at night since they are calmed down and systems naturally prepare to sleep, but few 10 or 12 week old puppies can wait all night.

Owners should expect to get up at least once during the night. I found that by using the exercise pens, I could tell when a puppy was ready for crating at night. When I found dry papers every morning for about 5 mornings or so, I was comfortable with putting a puppy in a crate at night. In my dogs, it was usually around the four month mark.

[animalcraker]

Originally Posted by all4thedogs

I have not personally seen paper training work, but I do believe it can. I have been around large and giant breed dogs, and I can not have my Great Dane peeing in the house, even on paper. It would be a disaster!

I know my neighbor had trouble with her Paps. They were trained to use newspaper, and if newspaper was ever left on the floor for any amount of time, thats where they went. Even in the paper was in the living room. Her male had to "mark" any new paper, so it was always a risk bringing paper into the house. Now, I know this is not the NORM, but I found it disgusting.

That happend to me when I was a kid. My brother was working on a school report so he had all his papers scatered over the floor in his room. My very first dog was paper trained and got loose in the house. She went runing upstarirs not really sure of what to do, but as soon as she saw all the paper no the floor she knew what to do. It wasn't prety! You always hear the excuse that my dog ate my homework, but have you ever heard my dog peed on my homework. It was rather funny but definetly not fun!

[sobreeze]

have we forgotten that these pups are just infants we do not expect human infants to not pee or poo for 2,3,4 or up to 12 hours they do an mom justs cleans them up we need to know each pup we are raising what there limits are some need more time out of crate than others some can hold it longer they cant read the rules dont know what we want from them when we tell them things to do or not to do it just sounds like noise from us it takes time dont take it so fast they will all get it in time i know you will all do the best for your babies so have a great day and my the wind be always at your back and the sun shine on your face

[LoveLilly]

ALOT of people just simply don't believe in paper training. I have also found that these are usually large breed owners as the first thought in their mind is a huge pile in the house! The comment above about paper peeing Paps.....well, Papillons are nortorious for being difficult to housetrain. Elements of what everyone has said above is correct. They are babies with little systems but every dog is different and its all effected by activity, water in-take, food type...etc. Lilly (my little Pap) is my first dog ever (plus I don't have kids) and I brought her home at 8 weeks. Wow it was tough!! Sleepless nights, confusion on my part, trying to figure out what the different barks meant.....yes sounds just like a new mom!! I learned that little bladders need emptied often so I accomodated that. I also put her on a strict schedule so knew what she needed to do when so I could learn her actions and barks and ensure her success. I think the most important thing to know is that you cannot bring a little puppy home on Friday night, lock them in a crate when you go to work Monday and then be surprised that they messed all over. You need to help them succeed and they learn and succeed by getting praise, love, treats, etc...for everything you show them you need them to do. You can transition from point A to point B (paper to yard) as long as you give consistency and reward.

[blackgavotte]

Lovelilly, I think you are right on, it seems mostly the larger dog owners, ( I am meaning anything over say 30-35 lb for now ) who are grossed out by the thought of paper training. I agree, who wants a Great Dane or German Shepherd, whatever, doing a mighty pile in the house.

In their defense, I believe many large breed owners are more realistic about the needs for outdoor exercise, pens, whatever, for their new puppies. At least I hope so.

People who get tiny dogs seem to more often, think that putting them into a small crate and forcing them to hold bladder and bowels, for hours and hours, in addition to being bored silly and possibly heating up dangerously in this situation, is allright.

I know it is going to take time but I sincerely hope that with just saying what needs to be said, we will help raise awareness of this incorrect way we have been using, to potty train pups.

[Cheetah]

If anyone noticed, I said "general rule." That usually means in "general," but doesn't apply to ALL puppies. Common sense would tell somebody that if the pup still isn't holding it using the general rule, then they should adjust the time to fit their puppy... maybe I just have a bit too much faith in people... >X.x;<