Snapping Pit bull

RonJaxon · 08-06-2007, 09:15 PM

Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum. I've just been searching around in hopes to find some advice. Because this is my first post please bare with me while I explain my situation. Keep in mind I'm not one of those people looking for a "Quick fix" but rather advice or suggestions. I'm not expert but I'm very thoughtful with the care of my pets.

First I think I should explain briefly how I got Chaos (American Pit Bull). I help one of my nieces old boyfriends move some furniture into a new apartment. I saw this dog about 4 or 5 months old in a cage in the house. The next day I realized i forgot something in their old house so I went back to get it. The dog was still in the cage with no food or water so I just took him home with me. He had a small patch of blood on his side. I confronted my nieces (now ex-boyfriend thankfully) about it and his reason was that his new apartment didn't allow dogs. This made me mad and I basically just told him that he's not getting the dog back.

OK, now you understand that he had some poor treatment before I got him. I've had him for about a year now and I'm proud to say Chaos is doing great. He's a fun dog. As obedient as expected for his age and very smart. I know a dog shouldn't judged by the tricks he can do but he picks up pretty quickly on the basics of sit, stay, come and does a variety of other little things such as roll over and he sings/ howls on command when I say, "Sing me a song". The singing all started when he would howl when ever he heard a dog toy squeaker.

Anyway, He's my buddy now. But here's the problem. Sometimes he snaps at people. Only people he doesn't know but not all people. Let me give you a few examples.

When I have a house guest he does a lot of growling. He has a cage and he sleeps in there. I only close the door when someone comes over that he doesn't know. I tell people not to put their fingers in the cage because he will snap at them. After a while I slowly introduce my guest to them while he's still in the cage by letting them approaches him or let them sit in a chair not far from the cage. I come up and talk to him from time to time. After a while he relaxes and I slowly bring him out. Keep him by my side. Pet him. After a few minutes he just fine and he'll be just fine with my house guest. Once all this is over and he knows my guest I have no fear of him hurting them. This has worked with all my friends and all my regular house guests receive a tail wagging welcome when they come over.

My neighbors have two dogs and my dog gets along with them fine. My dog also gets along with the mother of the neighbors. But for some reason Chaos picks and chooses who he doesn't like or snaps at. The other day he snapped at my neighbors kid (The kid is 17 years old. I wouldn't allow him about young kids unattended). It's not an attach but more of a warning snap.

I'm wondering if the reason for this is fear. The boy is afraid of the dog and he's the one Chaos snapped at. But the boys mother was standing right now to him. Chaos just sniffed her and then ignored her. But the boy he snapped at. Not only that he snapped as his hand when he wasn't even looking at Chaos.

I'm just hoping to find the reason this is happening and how to help him overcome it. I'd hate to loose him. He's great to those he knows.

Thanks for your time.

Ron Jaxon

Durbkat · 08-06-2007, 09:23 PM

Perhaps the guy that previously owned the dog abused the dog and he fears some males. Try having the people he snaps at a treat so that he will associate strangers with a good thing.

Curbside Prophet · 08-06-2007, 09:32 PM

Hi Ron, welcome to our forum!

It certainly does sound like your dog has fear issues. This isn't something to be taken lightly, as I don't suspect you do. I think the best advice in this situation is to seek the help of a certified professional.
Certified Member Listing of Dog Behavior Consultants at IAABC.org

Find Your Local CPDT!
You were very detailed in your explanation, and if you choose to use the help of a professional, you'll be a definite asset in helping your dog.

Without seeing what's going on, we can only guess at what the issues may be, but a professional would be able to read your dog, on site, more clearly.

In the mean time, and when out in public, I'd have your dog fitted with a basket muzzle. We'd hate for your dog to be taken away too, and the higher powers that be certainly know your dog doesn't need to become yet another statistic for his breed...no fault to your own.

Again, welcome to our forum, and please keep us updated.

Snowshoe · 08-06-2007, 09:35 PM

I don't know that I would follow Durb's advice. Having a stranger handle a high value treat is asking for a bite from a very powerful dog.

Sorry Durb, but you've gotta be careful about what advice you give, especially with a dog that may have some human aggression. Especially if this is not something that you yourself have ever had to deal with.

RonJackson: I would consult a dog trainer and get advice that way. There are members on this forum who have APBTs and they could probably give you the best advice. However, no advice you get on a forum should ever replace consulting a professional of any kind.

I hope that you don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. We all want what is best for you and your dog.

EXBCMC · 08-07-2007, 12:30 AM

God be careful. Here in Calif an adult housekeeper was found dead mauled by the family pit bull. I would not let that dog anywhere near a child. I'm sorry if I'm a tad harsh on this, but you have a dangerous dog. Ok, let me have it, I can take it.

Alpha · 08-07-2007, 01:42 AM

I agree that you need to seek professional advice.

But this just my take on some of the things you've mentioned.

Often enough, crating an animal everytime someone comes over, you are inadvertently sending the dog a message. You don't want them near each other. I've read, and heard from some amateurs, that a old way of teaching dogs to "protect" the house, is to do just what you've mentioned. Crate the dog everytime someones in the house. Then, if someone breaks in, the dog's not crated and they go at whoever is in the house.

Personally I would have my dog on leash. I don't want my dog to feel "outed" just because someone is visiting, although I do want to have complete control. (ETA- With that being said, there are some people that Roxy just does not like. She has to be put in the room when they come into the house. By process of elimination we believe it's loud, tall, heavy set men.)

There are times where our dogs find things to be threats when really they're harmless. Roxy "grabbed" someone, and intimidated them to back up by merely shaking my bf's hand. The slap their hands made when they shook was enough to convince Roxy that this stranger was harming her daddy. So she grabbed his hand and bared her teeth. Dogs don't know human body language or gestures, so things that we KNOW are okay, may seem menacing to them. So keep that in mind

I have to be very conscious of how people *around* me are acting with Roxy. She dislikes people that speak with their hands, or touch often in conversations with me, so I have to keep an eye on her and assure her that I'm okay.

As he's so good with tricks, something to do while your looking for a trainer would be, distracting/desensitizing with a command. This came in super handy with Roxy. She's very obedient, we worked hard. So I'll place her in a sit stay if I'm speaking to someone in passing. She's still allowed to protest if there's something she doesn't like, but if I give her a cue to stop,, she does.

If people are in the home, she's on leash, (or just "with me") most likely in a down stay.

Using a lot of positive reinforcement for some cues like sit/down/stay is a great way to desensitize your dog to these situations. I know I personally, am not interested in making Roxy *love* people and be a friendly dog. I just want her to behave politely by sitting by my side. Working on those commands, and heavily reinforcing them, will make your pup most likely to comply in a real life situation, like asking for a down stay when people come over.

Just make take on things

Durbkat · 08-07-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

I don't know that I would follow Durb's advice. Having a stranger handle a high value treat is asking for a bite from a very powerful dog.

Sorry Durb, but you've gotta be careful about what advice you give, especially with a dog that may have some human aggression. Especially if this is not something that you yourself have ever had to deal with.

RonJackson: I would consult a dog trainer and get advice that way. There are members on this forum who have APBTs and they could probably give you the best advice. However, no advice you get on a forum should ever replace consulting a professional of any kind.

I hope that you don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. We all want what is best for you and your dog.

Well I saw on here where other people said they had a problem where the dog would get scared when it saw strangers on its walk and to have the person give the dog a treat so it will associate the new person with getting something yummy.

BoxMeIn21 · 08-07-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durbkat

Well I saw on here where other people said they had a problem where the dog would get scared when it saw strangers on its walk and to have the person give the dog a treat so it will associate the new person with getting something yummy.

There is a difference between a dog that is just scared and one who scared enough to deliver a warning growl/snap. A stranger handing a treat to this dog is a bite waiting to happen. Just be careful when advising people on dogs who like to use their mouths.

To the OP - you've been given great advice. I would also urge you to get a behaviorist. I am sure with time and a little patience you two can put this behind you.

Snowshoe · 08-07-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

There is a difference between a dog that is just scared and one who scared enough to deliver a warning growl/snap. A stranger handing a treat to this dog is a bite waiting to happen. Just be careful when advising people on dogs who like to use their mouths.

Exactly, Box. Did you see that thread in the Off Topic section where poor Maizey (sp??) got bitten by her friend's GSD?

She was offering it a treat (a sandwich to be precise), and it bit her badly.

Treats are "high value" and make some dogs more possessive and aggressive. I understand you were giving her the best advice you knew how, Durb. I was just trying to show you that your advice wouldn't be a good idea for this particular case.

This forum has taught me many things, so I try to pass on what I know.

Durbkat · 08-07-2007, 05:11 PM

Actually she gave it the treat then late on it came up to her and wagging her tail and it bit her when she tried to pet it.

Alpha · 08-07-2007, 07:03 PM

I don't know if this dog personally would bite someone with a treat.

But I know, personally with my dog, that strangers offering her a treat has no effect. She simply takes the treat, than snarls/growls at them to get away.

I think there are more effective methods out there than just handing out treats.

Now don't get me wrong, treats are a wonderful thing, but with this exact situation, a treat won't neccessarily make a dog less scared. In fact it could make them *more* aggressive as Snowshoe's mentioned. Or a smart dog will get what she wants THAN scare you off.

LOL

Curbside Prophet · 08-07-2007, 07:26 PM

It really depends on what's happening with the dog Durb. We can't really see what the dog is doing, and there isn't enough information to say Ah, yes, this is a fear reaction. If it were true, that it was a fear reaction, classical conditioning prevails. So yes, sytematically tossing treats at the dog by a stranger would be one approach. Classical conditioning is often used when the response is emotional. But again, we can't see if this true or not.

However, it could very well be a learned response. I snap and dude backs up...I like this game, so I'll do it again! In the event that it's not an emotional response, operant conditioning prevails. Requesting the dog to exhibit an alternate behavior like sit, is a likely approach.

Like punishments, there are rules that govern when rewards should be given. And an untimely reward, although more forgiving, can still yield poor behavior.

lidermar · 08-08-2007, 09:40 AM

Sorry to be so blunt but for the life of me I fail to see the relevance of such dogs in todays society here's a couple of suggestions...If it isn't already desexed desex it, if you do not have a muzzle buy one. Give the dog to someone who may have a use for such an animal perhaps as a junkyard dog...This dog and dogs of similar ilk are lawsuits waiting to happen.

BoxMeIn21 · 08-08-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lidermar

Give the dog to someone who may have a use for such an animal perhaps as a junkyard dog...This dog and dogs of similar ilk are lawsuits waiting to happen.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I fail to see the relevance of your statement in this thread. Do you recommend all dogs with kinks in their behavior be sent to junkyards?
This dogs issue more than likely can be fixed with the help of a behaviorist with a little time and dedication on his part.

Alpha · 08-08-2007, 04:50 PM

lidermar-

My bitch Roxy has such issues and I have a serious use for her in my life. MY PET, MY BEST FRIEND. Definitely not as a junkyard dog! She lives in my home with me and is treated like the awesome, intelligent, clever, wonderful dog that she is. I know a number of dogs that have issues but their owners are RESPONSIBLE. Perhaps that's something you've never heard of before.... A dog can have issues, serious issues and yet a RESPONSIBLE owner can prevent any "lawsuits" as you so put it. Are you also suggesting that my dog be muzzled? Pfft. A police officer once told me the same thing and quickly retracted his statement after he looked into the situation further so no thanks. My dog will not be muzzled, ever. She's never in any sort of situation where she could bite someone, because I DO NOT ALLOW IT. As a responsible owners, I know my dog, I know what makes her tick and I know what situations are iffy with her, so I avoid them. What an awful statement to make.

A dog can still be a wonderful dog regardless of issues like this. It's how as an owner, YOU RISE TO THE OCCASION.

lidermar · 08-08-2007, 06:10 PM

"Anyway, He's my buddy now. But here's the problem. Sometimes he snaps at people. Only people he doesn't know but not all people. Let me give you a few examples."

"The other day he snapped at my neighbors kid (The kid is 17 years old."

The above statements are yours not mine, if there was dangerous dog legislation where you live your dog would fit the bill.

How irresponsible of you not to muzzle your dog when in public...what r u waiting for.... him to bite someone or another dog...

Is he de-sexed u did not say..

Take him to obedience classes at least you may be able to control him that way but trust him no way....

BoxMeIn21 · 08-08-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lidermar

"Anyway, He's my buddy now. But here's the problem. Sometimes he snaps at people. Only people he doesn't know but not all people. Let me give you a few examples."

"The other day he snapped at my neighbors kid (The kid is 17 years old."

The above statements are yours not mine, if there was dangerous dog legislation where you live your dog would fit the bill.

Those statements were not made by Alpha - they were made by the OP who came here looking for answers to his questions not some BS banter about the type of dog he has.
I think it's time you take your own advice, remember this comment? It was in this post, if you need help remembering. http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-train...ne-used-3.html (Clever_Collar has anyone used it yet?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lidermar

You r right you should only post on topics to which you can help and contribute

lidermar · 08-09-2007, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

Those statements were not made by Alpha - they were made by the OP who came here looking for answers to his questions not some BS banter about the type of dog he has.
I think it's time you take your own advice, remember this comment? It was in this post, if you need help remembering. http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-train...ne-used-3.html (Clever_Collar has anyone used it yet?)

Who attributed the quotes to Alpha not me I was addressing the response by Ron Jaxon just a small point I thought I would point out to you. The breed of dog is of course important to the equation of behaviour, ask a kelpie owner or an owner of a Border Collie or any gun dog owner or a Beagle owner, need I go on? I think you get the point by now or perhaps not..

Heard of the saying.....Don't shoot the messenger.

EasternCanuck · 08-09-2007, 03:59 AM

I don't know how much of this banter is helping the OP.

Killer Bee · 08-09-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Take him to obedience classes at least you may be able to control him that way but trust him no way....

I have to agree here. Pitbulls are what they are raised to be. If you treat him with loyalty and friendship, that's what you get. But, if he's been mistreated and you rescue him, you are still at risk of setting him off. I'm not saying to have him put down or get rid of him, but be extremely careful. A Pit's jaws aren't anything to be taken lightly.....especially if you don't know the circumstances of how he was raised. I would definitley keep him muzzled in public.

-Killer Bee