[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

A Pit's jaws aren't anything to be taken lightly.
-Killer Bee

Neither are the jaws of a Rottie, a Dobie, a GSD, A Bulldog, for that matter so I really don't know what point you are trying to make here.
...and please don't tell me you think that pitties have jaws that "lock".

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I have to agree here. Pitbulls are what they are raised to be. If you treat him with loyalty and friendship, that's what you get. But, if he's been mistreated and you rescue him, you are still at risk of setting him off. I'm not saying to have him put down or get rid of him, but be extremely careful. A Pit's jaws aren't anything to be taken lightly.....especially if you don't know the circumstances of how he was raised. I would definitley keep him muzzled in public.

-Killer Bee

Firstly, "pitbulls" are NOT neccessarily what they are raised to be. One could do all of the appropriate things, socializing, training, love and care and still end up with a dog that is DA, or possibly even HA due to bad breeding and a predisposition to those behaviours (I understand that APBT were not bred for HA, but the new fad is to mix these normally human friendly dogs with larger breeds that are known for HA, the end product being a larger, heavier HA dog). So, poof. There goes your first statement I've seen it with my own eyes. You can do your darndest and still end up with a dog that has issues, period.

I do agree with being extremely careful. Any dog that has displayed these behaviours should be under constant watch. And if they aren't under complete control there's a problem.

Yes, APBT have a strong bite. Hades get's so excited when we play rough, and he does bite awful hard. Much harder than Roxy. But as box said, there are many breeds of dogs that have a "strong bite". "Pitbulls" are hardly the only dog breed that you should fear when it comes to being bitten.

Once again, when it comes to muzzling. If your being responsible, there's no need to muzzle. (Unless of course it's law where you are, it is where I live)

As the dog has already shown that he is clearly capable of biting someone and has, this dog should be on leash if he can't be controlled offleash and the OP should not allow anyone to touch or be in biting range of this dog.

My dog would probably bite someone if they walked up to her and started patting her. Should she be muzzled? Ah no. I tell everyone that approaches us, to stay away from my dog, not to touch her because she's not the friendly type. Period. If they pursue the issue civilly, I'll explain further. If they give me attitude.. I'll sick her on them! JOKING! I would most likely just walk away.

The most important point in issues like these is the OWNER. ADMIT that your dog has a problem and TAKE ACTION! Don't let random people come and pat your dog. You know darn well he has a problem, so don't put your dog and anyone else at risk! Simple as that. I keep my dog, as well as other people safe everyday from the wrath that is known as Roxy. It's really not that difficult to say, "Sorry, can't pat this one. The big, slobbering pitbulls the friendly one!" (meaning Hades not the OPs dog) Most people don't really want to pursue patting a dog that growls at them anyways...

[poohlp]

I recommend the tack my grandmother always took with her dogs, all of which were gentle and wouldn't hurt a fly. Unless the dog knew the people and was comfortable with them, if she was asked to if the dog could be pet, she'd not let them pet her. If asked why, she'd say, "She's a dog and you can never know for sure what a dog will do." She always assumed that the small chance that a dog might for some unknown reason bite someone was a good enough reason to not let strangers, especially children, be in a situation to get bitten.

[RonJaxon]

Boy. I was away for a few days. came back and just found how many of you posted your thoughts and advice. I haven't read them all yet but I'm going to right now. I just wanted to thank everyone. I'll read them all now and then come back and share my thoughts.

While I do that. Here's a short video of Chaos. It was shot with my phone camera in my back yard. I know it doesn't show the behavior in questions but at least you'll see him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PY6x5b7q68Y

Thanks again.

Ron Jaxon

[RonJaxon]

OK, I've read all your advice and I thank you for taking the time to send them.

Just to give a little more information. There has been two times that Chaos has snapped at someone. The first time it happened was the fault of the people involved and not the dogs (Which I think usually is the case). I wasn't there when it happened but my girlfriend was there. Her and her friend stopped at the house after work to pick something up. I was at work myself at the time. My girlfriend told her friend not to get out of the car because she's letting the dog out for a minute. Her friend didn't listen and walked up to them. So Chaos saw this stranger approaching them in our back yard and he didn't like that so he snapped at her. She got a little scratch in her hip from it but it wasn't too bad. I know the amount of damage isn't the point but I'm sharing that for the sake of letting you know how that turned out. So in this instance it was obviously a case of Chaos protecting either my girlfriend or our property or probably a combination of both.

Now if I leave my property for a walk with Chaos I always have a leash on him. There's never been an issue when we go on walks and I won't let anyone pet him or come near him. The second time he snapped at someone was, as I said in my original post, in my back yard. My back yard and my neighbors back yard are connected. They have two puppy's as well (I think they are Pit/boxer mix). Chaos and the puppy's get along great. They run around the back yard and play. So when the neighbor came out to talk to me the 3 dogs where playing and pretty much ignoring us humans. At one point Chaos sniffed at my neighbor and just walked away to play some more as if it was no big deal. Then her son came out and stood next to her. Chaos came sniffing toward us but went passed them. So my neighbors sons back was to Chaos. Chaos looked at him for a second then all of the sudden snapped at him. Got his hand but didn't break any skin. I of course yelled his name in a sharp voice and he ducked his head and walked toward the house.

This is the situation I'm trying to figure out what his issue is. I do know that the one who he snapped at was very afraid of Chaos. So I'm wondering if fear is what triggered it. Or maybe it was the same kind of issue of a stranger approaching. Like I said. Chaos sniffed the mother and had no issue. Then her son joins in and the snapping happened.

I took your advice and purchased a mussel. I'll only use it as a precaution. But I wonder if it might be helpful in some other way. So let me ask what you all think of this thought I have. If I put it on him and we go play in my back yard. And the neighbors come out (They are not young children). The mussel would prevent him from biting. I can hold the leash so I still have control of him. And let him meet the neighbors that way. I have friends that Chaos does know and once he knows them there's no problem.I watch him anyway but he gets along fine with these people he knows.

What do you think? I may be completely wrong but I need to find some way to figure this out. I'm not planning on setting him loose with strangers. But I'm just hoping to get to the bottom of this and help him with this issue.

Oh, A couple of you brought this up. Yes, he has been fixed.

Thanks again.

Ron Jaxon

[Inga]

RonJaxon, Did the dog have the name Chaos when you got him? It has nothing to do with the dogs behavior, but a name like that surely does not lead the average person into a feeling of trustworthy dog. I agree with all of the above posts about using caution at all times. In our world today we really have to have our dogs under control at all times. It won't matter if chaos bites who's fault it was... He is a Pit. As far as the law and the public are concerned he is the problem. Nobody will care about his past or if someone was told to stay out of the yard but didn't. Can this dog get over this behavior? Maybe. Training, and conditioning is definitely the key. Seek professional help with him. He is an awesome looking dog, and obviously trainable. The fact that you came looking for advice makes me think that you are serious about doing right by him. God Bless you for that, and for saving him from cruel treatment in the first place. I have taken in many dogs that have had aggression issues. I have worked very hard at it. It is never a quick fix. My dogs have all gotten over it. I have had several of them doing Therapy work in nursing homes, children's centers and hospitals. So can it be done? Yes! Is it easy? No Do you have to be 100% responsible for your dogs behavior and actions at all times? Absolutely! Best of Luck I hope everything works out for you. For me I would think about changing that name, but that is me. I have dogs all named with human names, and nicknames like Peaches and Sweets That is just me.

[RonJaxon]

Thanks for the comment. I doubt the name has anything to do with it but thank you for your advice. He had that name before I got him but I kept it because I like the name. It's actually kind of ironic because I'm a magician and one of my stage acts is called "Controlled Chaos". The idea behind that act is that everything that seems to be in chaos all has a purpose and comes together at the end. But that's a discussion for another forum.

Before anyone asks. No, I don't use animals in my acts. I'll keep working with him and I'll let you know how things turn out. I know to be careful with any dog.

I'm one of those "Don't blame the breed" state of mind people. I do know that breeds have their issues but I don't believe anyone can say that one breed is bad. Except maybe a cocker spaniel. Boy can they have an attitude.

Ron Jaxon

[Alpha]

Well my APBT has a "mean" sounding name, Hades, the God of the Underworld, but we just look at it like calling a Great Dane "Tiny". ROFL

The only problem I see with muzzles on a dog that does want to bite/attack is that it can cause frusteration, therefore only worsening the problem.

While I agree that *preventing* this from happening is a great idea, a "band aid" fix, like just keeping his mouth shut isn't the most responsible.

Find a great trainer, who relies heavily on positive reinforcement. (But that doesn't have to be their only area of expertise)

The key is finding other behaviours that are suitable for Chaos and rewarding them heavily when you ask/or he displays them during "iffy" times.

So example)

You see Chaos approaching someone, perhaps cowering, or in a "dominant" body position, (tail up, perhaps his hair is raised) you immediately get his attention, not in a negative way, but a positive way, and ask for a behaviour like sit. Then reward him like crazy! (This is just a super general example)

The whole idea is, you want to be able to break him out of the mind set and place him in a situation where he can be rewarded. Don't let the bad stuff happen, but replace the bad behaviours with a good one.

Until you get going with training and ridding him of this behaviour with a professional, I would avoid letting Chaos near people that seem to get a reaction out of him.

Find out the root problem with your trainer than work on it. Don't endanger your dog or anyone else.

It would be a different story if Chaos had growled/snarled, or gave some type of warning. But going straight to biting? Not a good sign.

A simple way of getting dogs over "fears" of people, or "aggression" issues is to reward them/treat them with every human interaction.

For instance, you see Chaos looking at the child. REWARD! You see Chaos sniff the child, JUMP IN AND REWARD!

The idea being, you've rewarded him before he did anything bad, and the message to Chaos is, if I sniff him, I get treats, if I look at him I get treats... Until it becomes like a game.

I personally don't reccomend that at all, I just want to kind of get the message across that you always want to find something POSITIVE to reward. And if you can't find a situation worth rewarding, MAKE ONE!

By asking for a behaviour like sit/down before he reacts, than praise. You want to give a clear message to Chaos, that he gets rewarded if he doesn't react. Make sense?

Good luck, and have you had any luck finding a trainer in your area?

[RonJaxon]

Thanks you Alpha. I'm listening and I'm taking this all in.

You know something though. There's something about me that I haven't mentioned because I didn't think it had anything to do with it but after reading some of the things you said it just might have some relevance. Especially your comment about him not doing any growling or snarling before the snap.

I'm deaf. So maybe he has growled before these things happened. I'll ask my girlfriend if Chaos growled before that incident with her friend. With me I wouldn't know unless I see him growl. That's definitely something I need to find out.

By the way. Did any of you happen to see the video I posted above of Chaos? You can see that he's not a dog that is always mean and I think he's a beautiful dog.

Thanks again.

Ron

[Alpha]

I've got super slow dial up, so watching videos puts a crazy dim on everything I'm doing on the computer

Finding out if he did growl is SUPER important!

One of the most important rules with reactive dogs is to never correct for growling, because maybe the next time, the dog will go straight to the bite. Growling is a dog's last resort to let everyone around them know that they are uncomfortable. If you correct them for that, they have no choice except to bite when they don't feel safe or comfortable in a situation.

So perhaps Chaos was corrected at one time in his life for growling and he did go straight to the bite, or perhaps he did, and the child still proceeded to pat him?

Also, I don't know if this is relevant to Chaos, but ROxy also has issues with being touched by strangers (much worse than Chaos, it's EVERY stranger). She particularly dislikes being touched on top of the head or her back. She will tolerate having her chin rubbed. I've read and been told, that with extreme circumstances, (like Roxy's) patting the top of the head can be taken as a sign of dominance to dogs. Do you know where this boy was reaching to touch Chaos?

I haven't met too many, trully, mean dogs (Actually, I've only met one, and it was a Shitzu (sp?) at school. Just an evil little thing! The other had Springer Rage, so I don't know if that counts.

Most of them, like my own, just have super quirky personalities that need to be respected. Or they just haven't had a good run at life!

[UK Street Ring]

Putting your dog in a cage and asking some one to goto your dog and give them a treat is a big no no, its the dogs safe area and the person would be invareing that space , try this , when you no some one is coming to visit , take your dog out side and meet the person(s) out side with your dog, do NOT let the people say or touch your dog , after a few minuites , go inside , takeing no notice of the dog no eye contact ( from your friend) , ( have the dog on lead & muzzle if it is snappy) after 5 mins 10 mins, or when your dog has calmed down , get your friend to put a treat on the floor ie kong filled with treats , let your dog see this , then let your dog have these , do this with every one that comes around the eventuly the dog will think hold on this person gives me treats etc, this wont be fixed in 1 or 2 sessions , so keep it up

[poohlp]

I watched the video and he's a really cute dog that you clearly have put a lot of time and effort into training. Definitely look into some of these great suggestions, but I'd just keep him away from problem situations whenever possible. Better to be safe than sorry and no matter how at fault someone else is, a society that's been socialized to be bigoted towards these dogs will always blame him first.

As to the head patting, I have also heard that having their head pat is unpleasant and aversive to dogs. I can see why. I don't particularly like the idea of having my head pat either. Now having my ears rubbed, that's a different story....

Completely off topic, how'd you train the roll over. We just mastered shake and I'm looking for a new trick.

[Amaya-Mazie-Marley]

What happened was I gave the dog my sandwich to show him I wasn't a bad person, I wanted to pet him. He wagged his tail and I went to pet him and he bit the hell out of me. I had also been using the same techniqe with my dogs that are fearful of men. I would take them to the park or just walking or at the local animal hospital and ask random men if they wouldn't mind helping. Its greatly helped both of my girls realize that strangers aren't bad but I now have changed my opinion greatly on that. I wouldn't recommend it at all. I know dogs extremely well but even so reading body language is something hard to do. If you see a dog wagging its tail you automatically assume its friendly and reach out to pet it, when thats not always the case. In this situation I would recommend a behaviorist and from there a trainer. I would keep the dog muzzled on walks and around new people. I myself have an APBT and know how they are and how they can be. A fear biter in an APBT isn't a good thing at all and this man and his dog need professional help and I give him props beucase he sounds like an amazing APBT owner. I think that many statements made about APBT are biased statements and it saddens me. Chaos is a gorgeous dog who was mistreated. If you ever hear of a chi or a shihtzu thats been mistreated and is a biter people feel sorry for them and make a fuss over it. If you ever hear of a mistreated pit that has fear issues and will snap sometimes then people turn away, don't want to talk about it. I was reading dog fancy magazine the other day at the vets and I noticed they had an issue about about APBT. It was horrible how many e-mails they had from people that were dropping their subscription because of it. Most people don't know a damn thing when it comes to pits and I wish they would either educate themselves or shutup.

[RonJaxon]

Thanks everyone for all your comments and suggestions. Right now I'm just avoiding the possibility of it happening. But you can't catch everything. I was working on my backyard and Chaos was just running around playing with his toy. I'd toss every now and then. Anyway out comes a few neighborhood kids. I was pulling some weeds at that time. I saw Chaos walk toward them. He didn't seem aggressive or anything but I of course called him "CHAOS COME!". He just turned around can came to me with no problem. Then I warned the kids not to come near him or he might bite. I was just glad Chaos listened and I turned at the right moment. I didn't see any signs to worry about but I won't take chances. Especially with kids. That's the only time I even had a worry something might happen but he definitely wasn't in any kind of aggressive mode at that moment. He was basically just sniffing around.

Originally Posted by poohlp

Completely off topic, how'd you train the roll over. We just mastered shake and I'm looking for a new trick.

Shake is a very easy one. In fact many dogs do it automatically in my experience. So when I noticed Chaos pretty much did it on his own (I put my hand out he lifted his paw). I just endorsed that action with the command.

That's pretty much all I did with roll over. After I taught him to lay down and he got that on command. I simply, and slowly, rolled him over as I said the words "Roll over". In other words I'd say roll over then roll him over. Not in any aggressive way though. Just repeating that and I'd give him a treat after he made a complete roll. I save money because I just grab a hand full of his dog food and give him pieces that as a treat. Eventually he started to lay on his back when I said roll over. Once he's on his back I'd just repeat the "Roll over" command and wait for him to complete it.

His latest trick is to sing. I say "Sing a song" and he starts to howl. It all started when I had a squeaker (taken from a toy). I'd blow in the squeaker and he started howling (Like they sometimes do to fire trucks). I never seen him howl before and of course it was funny. But then I got to thinking why he howled. I've had dogs that howl before (Especially hounds). So I looked on line and read about it. It's not a matter of it hurting their ears like some people think. It's basically just returning a call in the wild when they do it to a high pitch sound. Anyway I started to associate the words "Sing a song" with the squeak.--- "Squeak... Sing a song.... Squeak... Sing a song". He howls and I treat him with either a "Good boy" a pat or a piece of his food as a treat. Now I just say "Sing a song" and he howls until I say good boy or somehow thank him. I can't hear it because I'm deaf but I put my hand on his chest and feel it. It's kind of funny because at first he just gives a soft and short howl like "Hoo wo wo wo". Then I say "Sing a song again and he goes "Hooooooooowwwwwwwwllllllllll" and fallows it with what looks to me like a "Wo wo wo wo".

Maybe I can get a video of him singing. He wont' always do it. he has to be in a calm yet playful mood..

Ron Jaxon

[workingdog]

You said that you have had this dog for a year and it is just now starting this.I would say that it has nothing to do with it's former owner and everything to do with bad breeding.Please make sure he is fixed and if you plan on keeping the dog, keep a very close eye on it. My personal opinion, put the dog down, it's just another news report waiting to happen.Before you start hating me for my remark, just know that i have owned the breed for 30# years and i say this out of love for the breed. He is young and will only get worse. sorry jmo....

[Barhund Canine]

Ron your are dealing with what sounds like fear aggression. He may be also showing aggression over being possive of his cage. From what you stated you are actually praising him for his actions and he is thinking it is ok for him to do this. If you do not get this dog under control with his aggression he is going to bite somebody. You need to correct this behavior immediately before he snaps at people. Learn his body lanquage and postures before he snaps so you can catch it before it starts. Do not let this dog run loose. If you want to give him some freedom use a 20 or 30 foot training lead. You were lucky when you called him back and he listened. You need to become this dogs pack leader. If you want some really good reading go to www.leerburg.com. Read the Groundwork articles and anything else on that website. The problems you are having are too in depth to go into here.

I would advise you to get a dominance collar and learn how to use it. You will also need to learn to use the proper ways to use positive reinforcement and corrections, along with obedience training and using methods to build the dogs motivation to want to learn. I would hate to see you get sued and have your dog put down for biting someone, especially today in this litigous society we live in.

Pit Bulls are very high drive animals and you need to learn how to handle them. Some other good reading you may want to look at is Cesar's Way by Cesar Milan. He has a couple of really good videos too. People Training for Dogs and Beccoming a Pack leader.

Learn how to set Rules Boundaries and Limitations and to give the right amount of exercise, discpline, and affecction. Purely Positive Training by Sheila Both is also an excellent book to read.

If you do not feel comfortable or knowledgeble enough find a good trainer that can give you a good well rounded program that will teach you to train the dog. I wouldn't go to someone that teaches do not correct your dog, nor would I advise someone that would overly correct a dog. Find a trainer in the middle that understands temperament and will train the complete package (you and your dog) You will also want to look for a trainer that is willing to make you autonomous. You may not be able to get what you need from a set 6-8 week obedience program.

I have dealt with a lot of problems like this, I will be more than happy to help if I can.

John Corbett

***NO UNauthorized Advertisements Allowed***

[Louis]

We've had our dog Brutus about three months and he's almost nine months old now. Only problem is a difficulty in house breaking him and people that call him a Pit Bull isn't any such breed; he is an American Staffordshire Terrier. Just funning you but I do think that the public's attitude to-wards these dogs has a lot to do with their unsavory reputation.

[Portiparent]

I would not recommend putting him down at this point. I also wouldn't assume its bad breeding. How old is the dog? If he is in the 2-3 range you are seeing this behavior now because the dog finally has the confidence to put action behind his fears. I would say that you are seeing this behavior based on age and the fact that the dog was found in a crate, which tells us that he was poorly socialized. I would seek professional help from and APDT member, who uses positive reward methods. I have been a witness to countless "feistys" becoming rehabilitated with the dedication and love from their owners.

[RonJaxon]

Thanks again everyone. Putting him down is a deviate "I won't do it". Killing a dog won't solve the problem and I believe too many dogs are put down for when they didn't need to be. Chaos is a GREAT dog but he obviously has an issue with strangers. No reason to kill him for that. I just need to be responsible for him. In most cases it's the owner at fault and the dog shouldn't be punished for their mistakes. I understand if it was an out of control problem and he was just snapping and biting ate everyone he sees or looking for someone to bite. But that's not the case. It's not a matter of me having him a little over a year and this problem just started. Before it happened he was never in the situation where it might happen. In other words it was the first time he saw someone that he didn't know and close range. We can go in my yard right now. Someone could walk down the sidewalk in front of the house and there's no problem. I do my best to avoid this though. If I see the mail man down the road I won't take Chaos out or if I see someone heading our way I call him over to stay next to me. He might look, make a sniff then go on back about his business. It's only when they get into close range. So I'm sure it's a fear issue as some of you have suggested.

On the matter of me being a "Pack leader". I totally agree and that's how I am with him to the best of my ability. If you watch my (I do love Cesar Millan's show. I don't have any of his books though).

I'm looking for someone to help in my area. It's not an easy task for me to find someone. I'm not whining about it but I'm deaf so it's hard to call around. I asked my girlfriend to call around for me but she works 12 hours a night third shift she either working or sleeping during most of the week. But I'll find someone. Does anyone have any suggestions as to who I should look up? I see a lot of "Dog trainer" in the book but I know better then to trust anyone. Some are just hobbyist claiming to be a pro I'm sure.

Let me share another incident. Someone called animal control on someone a few houses down. I guess their Chow got into some situation but I don't know what. Probably barking too much or something. They happened to see me with my dog and came to talk to us. I had Chaos on his leash because we where heading to take a walk. Now, my girlfriend did most of the talking so I didn't get all that he said. But he did say he was impressed by Chaos's behavior. We warned that he's not very good with strangers and he said that's fairly common. I held Chaos back maybe 10 feet from the guy while my GF talked to him. Of course Chaos was looking at the guy and sort of checking him out for a few. Then he just ignored him and laid down next to me. I didn't hear what was coming but he walked toward Chaos and he got to his feet. I didn't see any growling but the guy knew better to come closer. It turns out he wanted to look at his tags. So I ended up taking them off Chaos to show him. But overall the guy said he was impressed with Chaos. I'm pretty sure that in his line of work and the reputation of Pit Bulls he would be very leery. So Chaos needed to be put down that would have been a time it would have happened.

So it's not a matter of him looking for someone to bite. It's just close range so I think the fear issue is probably what's going on. I'll look for help and thanks everyone.

Ron Jaxon

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by RonJaxon

Does anyone have any suggestions as to who I should look up? I see a lot of "Dog trainer" in the book but I know better then to trust anyone. Some are just hobbyist claiming to be a pro I'm sure.

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