My new Pyr's are not killing

ronsetoe · 07-21-2007, 05:26 PM

I am new to this site but not Great Pyr's. I have a 4th generation pack, all from different parents, and the new 10 month old M/F refuse to kill critters. These are working dogs and have had very little human contact, except feeding, and they WILL not kill coyotes?? Their parents were great at it! 1 is still living, training them, and they have not picked up the kill yet? They will bark to protect but they will not kill only chase/play-this defeats their purpose. I have lost 3 sheep because the older one can't keep up with all the coyotes. Should I shoot a few coy's and let them eat them so they see that they are prey? TIA

skelaki · 07-21-2007, 06:30 PM

The younger ones are still very young and immature, but if they don't show prey drive, perhaps they would make better pets than livestock guards. Live stock guards generally only kill the predators when they can't just drive them away but the fact that you say these dogs seem to want to play perhaps their prey drive isn't high enough for the job.

One thought occurs to me. Would it be possible to get another guardian for them to learn from. Maybe the job is too much for your one older dog and these puppies.

ronsetoe · 07-21-2007, 07:07 PM

I have had kills in dogs as young as 7 months? I will give them a few more months to mature and to let the instinct kick in. The chase is more of a play instead of kill mode? I can get another female Pyr from a local farmer that is field ready for a few months. Do you think that will mess with the pack, with the young female?
She is starting to show leadership with the Alpha.
I usually have a pack of 4-5 but old age set in and a few had to be put down.

Do you think the coy meals will help out? Or a few tug of wars with the dead coys will help?
TIA

German Shepherd Lover · 07-21-2007, 07:19 PM

If the dogs are not well socialized how do you get them to return when they are loose. Also, have you thought about using Pit Bulls for the same task? Seems to me that they have a killer instinct and you could rescue a couple hundred a day from a shelter. That would be at least using their jaws for something useful.

skelaki · 07-21-2007, 07:31 PM

Pits are not a livestock guarding breed and would be just as likely to kill the lambs and sheep as coyotes are. Your livestock guard breeds have been bred for hundreds, an sometimes thousands of years to do this particular job. This is not a comment against Pits as a breed. It's just that this is a highly specialized job that most dog breeds would not be successful at.

I'm not sure if playing tug with a dead coyote would help or not if the dogs don't have a strong prey drive. You know your dogs best so you're the only judge as to whether adding another dog to the pack would be a good idea. If at all possible I'd do it even if just to help your older dog do the job. Besides, if these pups just don't prove to have enough prey drive to do the job and have to be placed in pet homes, you'll need at least one other livestock guard anyway.

applesmom · 07-21-2007, 08:39 PM

Feeding them an already dead coyote isn't going to increase their prey drive one bit. At least it won't unless they've been starved to the point that they have to hunt and kill coyotes just to survive. If they were off hunting coyotes for food that would mean they wouldn't be doing their job and guarding the sheep. Either way according to your expectations they won't be doing the job they were bred to do.

If you've been breeding and working these dogs for four generations, you obviously know a lot more about them than any posters on a pet forum would. You would certainly know better than we would at what age to expect your dogs to turn on.

If the dogs aren't doing the job you expect them to by this age, apparently either your breeding program or your training methods have slipped up somewhere.

Killing coyotes and feeding them to the dogs isn't likely to help. And bringing in a more experienced dog isn't likely to stimulate a non existent desire to kill in the pups. Since she's already been proven, the new dog would be more likely to do the killing to your satisfaction though!

cshellenberger · 07-21-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by German Shepherd Lover

If the dogs are not well socialized how do you get them to return when they are loose. Also, have you thought about using Pit Bulls for the same task? Seems to me that they have a killer instinct and you could rescue a couple hundred a day from a shelter. That would be at least using their jaws for something useful.

Pyrs get 'socialized' to the sheep they are gaurding, not to humans as work dogs. They will go where the sheep go and the sheep will pretty much come home to their barn or the pasture they wish to be in at night. Unlike sheep herding breeds, they don't gather the sheep, and bring them in, they protect the flock in the field from possible predators.

ronsetoe · 07-22-2007, 10:32 AM

I am going to give them a few more months to see if the "play" drive works out of their system. I have never had this happen with the Pyrenees breed and it has me stumped?! It will be tough to find homes for them because they are working dogs and have not been exposed to a lot of human contact, just the sheep.

At the very worst I can keep them in the barn yard as pets/protectors and bring in some new pups to train.

Pit bulls are not livestock dogs, as pointed out in the above post, and would kill the sheep and other animals as well-if they are already aggressive.
The Great Pryenees breed has been bred for this purpose for thousands of years and it is all instinct as too protect the flock.
I have never seen an American Staffordshire Terrier on a farm other than a family pet.

I will not try the feeding of the coyotes but I might try give some positive training, which is against my better judgement and their natural instinct's.

skelaki · 07-22-2007, 12:08 PM

ronsetoe,

My sister and her husband manage a ranch in Colorado and she might know some ranchers who use Pyrs as livestock guards (many do) who may have more and better suggestions for you. If you PM me I'll give you her email address.

luv4gsds · 07-22-2007, 12:45 PM

It sound like they have more of a prey drive then defense/fight drive. You need to figure out how to bring out the defense/fight drive in them.

ronsetoe · 07-22-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv4gsds

It sound like they have more of a prey drive then defense/fight drive. You need to figure out how to bring out the defense/fight drive in them.

That is why I stumped??? I have never had it happen? The kill instinct is a natural occurrence, just like retrieve, in my Golden Retriever.

Skeleki I will send you a PM with phone # If they/you can PM me with their #, I would be more than happy to give them a ring.

It happened again this morning, they chased them off, but in a playful way. They were not out to kill them, just chase!-which troubles me.

The Alpha got into a fight with some and won, but got slightly injured.

I have searched google for as long as I can---Is there a working dog site that is dedicated to actual problems with "real" working dogs??

TIA

Curbside Prophet · 07-22-2007, 07:07 PM

It seems like a huge waste of energy for a dog that's guarding sheep to also want they to chase and kill the intruders. I understand you don't want the coyotes around, but if they are chasing off the coyotes, it seems like they are doing the job. No coyote is going to expend that kind of energy trying to get past a barking chasing dog. Very interesting though.

ronsetoe · 07-22-2007, 08:36 PM

It is a play chase rather than a kill chase,,,if there is such a thing? All of my other Pyr's have gone after the coyotes with vengance-and were not interested in playing?? They will go after them and bark, but they do so in a playfull sort of way. They will still chase them off- but it will not solve the problem of the coyotes. They will keep breeding in hordes if not stopped or suppressed.
This is the first time that this has happened to me and it is very puzzeling?

They are getting past a barking dog and killing my sheep. The pack is rather fierce and is part coydog to the best of my observation.

skelaki · 07-22-2007, 09:13 PM

ronsetoe, I've PM'd you my sister's email address and emailed her that you might be in contact. I just read your PM, so I'll send her another email and give her your phone number also.

I'm also wondering if these two dogs might not do better in a less intense guarding situation such as guarding livestock in a small more family "pet" type situation such as someone who just keeps a few animals close to the house. In those situations the barking and chasing away as you describe would probably be sufficient.

Curbside Prophet · 07-22-2007, 11:01 PM

Wow, sounds like a very unique situation...at least much different than where I live. I honestly don't much expereince with flock guarding dogs, much less flock guarding and extermination dogs. But of the limited information I've come across, if you're needing extermination dogs, not only do you need the drive, but you also need numbers. From what you descrbed, my novice opinion is to suggest maybe more dogs?

Puzzling, is a good way to describe your situtaion. Not only in what your needing in your dogs, but why are there so many coyotes? Are there not programs in your area to minimize them? Was there a change in funding?

For the sake of your animals, I hope you find some answers.

cshellenberger · 07-23-2007, 02:11 PM

CP, the governemnt no longer does the coyote managment stuff (bounties ect) due to 'animal cruelty' concerns. I live in the city and still hear Coyotes in the 'green spaces' here in town. We lose several pets a year in my nieghborhood due to people letting their pets in the back yard at the wrong time. It's even worse out of town in the ranch areas, many people there have Llamas to guard smaller live stock from Coyotes and Bobcats.

TearahBey77 · 07-23-2007, 02:20 PM

Ok, this is just lil bit disturbing....

lovemygreys · 07-23-2007, 02:29 PM

Some dogs, even though they've been bred from generations of working stock just don't have what it takes to do the job. They are born destined to be pets. You see similar situations in pretty much every breed that was bred to do something. Even having parents who both excelled at 'the job' doesn't mean the offspring necessarily will.

Hopefully they will mature into the job...if not, I'm not sure you can train into a dog something they should be genetically driven to do. They may end up OK at it, but may not ever be outstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

CP, the governemnt no longer does the coyote managment stuff (bounties ect) due to 'animal cruelty' concerns. I live in the city and still hear Coyotes in the 'green spaces' here in town. We lose several pets a year in my nieghborhood due to people letting their pets in the back yard at the wrong time. It's even worse out of town in the ranch areas, many people there have Llamas to guard smaller live stock from Coyotes and Bobcats.

Yes...coyotes are a huge problem in some areas. In many cases, managing them the way people have for hundreds/thousands of years works the best - flock guarding dogs. Out west, there's a problem with people breeding "coyote dogs" from retired greyhounds...they release them in packs to chase down and kill coyotes. The problem is that these dogs are often not well cared for and abandoned if they become ill, injured, old or just aren't any good at it.

cshellenberger · 07-23-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TearahBey77

Ok, this is just lil bit disturbing....

Why? A farmer/rancher has every right to protect his stock. There HAS to be a balance. When Coyotes get so overpopulated that they have to turn to domestic animals for food it's time to do something to control the population.

ronsetoe · 07-23-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TearahBey77

Ok, this is just lil bit disturbing....

It should not be disturbing as this is what this dog breed was bred to do. It is in the purest form and happiest when protecting their flock.

It is sometimes difficult for others to see working dogs actually working and not being treated as a family pet. Some times it is difficult for me not to view them as my pets, but they are not, and are treated as working dogs. They have a bond with their sheep not me and my family.

The government no longer helps with the extermination of the coyotes.
There is a decent hunting season for coyotes and we kill as many as possible, when we can. The price of hides has dropped so much since the early 80's, that it barely pays for the ammunition. As a direct result of this- very few people in the state hunt them and the populations have sky rocketed.
When you hunt deer you get some meat out of it. When you hunt a coyote you don't eat the meat so the only thing a value was the pelt.
I must also take the time to backhoe a hole and dump the carcasses, because I don't want 50 dead coyotes rotting and spreading disease to my other animals.

With the size flock I have 3-4 good dogs can handle predators when fully functional, so I will not need more dogs if these come around. Coyotes do not run in as large of packs as wolves, so not as many are needed.

I have a full time job so I am not around all day to shoot them, plus the attack times are usually early and at dusk when it is getting dark. That is why I rely on the dogs so heavily for protection.

Thanks for the replies! I think I will have to wait this one out and hope the pups come around.

Skelaki-thanks for the email! I will shoot them an email this week.