[XcomSquaddie]

First post, hi all, 'sup?, etc. etc.
Sorry for the long first post...

We have a shelter dog named Cookie. Cookie is supposedly a german sherpherd mix. She is almost 2 years old and she's been with us for over a year now. She looks like a 20 lb. sandy white german shepherd, except that her nose doesn't have that shepherd bump.

Anyway, here's the problem. Cookie is extremely protective around our house. She is great with my parents, (very regular guests) and most others. However she seems to pick out certain people that she decides are "threats" or targets and acts very aggressive towards them. She has not bitten anyone, but she charges at them while growling/barking and snaps teeth.

I should note that she could easily have savaged several people now, however she is choosing not to bite. Still she has to be muzzled/crated when certain people come to the house.

Around our family (me, wife, three kids) she is perfectly fine, although if I'm rough housing with the kids, she will try to protect them. This consists of growling play bites, although she sounds more "concerned" or intense than if her and I are playing.

Personality wise, she is very playful and very intelligent. She plays well with all three kids. Cookie and my younger son (5) are almost litter-mates with a great deal of rough housing and wrestling. She handles this well and on the few occasions when he has gotten too rough, she yelps and seeks to escape rather than bite.

I should note that around myself and my wife she is very submissive. If you say "bad dog" she immediately cowers, and tries to lick hands/fingers. She also does the submissive roll-over when you raise your voice to her.

Her protective/aggressive streak is has been focused on:

* A neighbor boy, ten years old, but small. Problem child with behavioral/social issues. Cookie absolutely despises this kid.

* Another neighbor boy, also with some behavior issues. He does not cause our family problems, and Cookie only barks at him.

* A nephew, very loud, boisterous, also with some behavior issues. Cookie took one look at him and charged. She crossed twenty feet in less than a second and was snapping fang right in his face.

* Two adult women (one 40's, one 70's). No "threat" with either, but both have health problems that cause them to walk with difficulty. Cookie seemed more scared than aggressive, especially with my MiL (70's) who was walking very poorly that day.

* An 11 yo girl, a friend of my daughters. Cookie hates this child. No idea why, unlike the other kids.

Currently we keep her leashed when outdoors and when people have to come into our house we either muzzle her or crate her. She doesn't mind the crate but she loathes the muzzle. Just showing it to her will get her to stop barking.

I was hoping to find some tips on training her to at least stop charging at people. I don't want to discourage her from protecting her family, but currently we're one snap away from a real bite.

I was also hoping for techniques we could do at home, preferrably with the kids too. A professional trainer is probably out of our budget right now.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I would bet the farm that this behavior is much more fear/anxiety based than protection.

You need hands on help. Look around in your area for a behaviorist. Find someone who knows who Patricia McConnell and Ian Dunbar are when you ask. (2 well known canine behaviorists and authors). This is a loose guide for you to know when you have found someone who is well educated in animal behavior, and who will use kind training methods with your dog.)

For the interim, do as you have been, keeping the dog confined away from guests she may threaten.

[XcomSquaddie]

One of the reasons we settled on protective was that the behavior seems to escalate when the perceived danger level rises.

As an example, with the first neighbor kid I mentioned. He was over one day and behaving himself (for once). At some point, I watched him pick up a plastic stick, like a golf club or something, and start running behind my daughter. Cookie went berserk. If it wasn't for the leash, she would have been all over him.

He was NOT threatening her, but to a dog it could easily seem that way.

I'll have to look for books by those trainers you mentioned. As I mentioned, I'm not sure we can afford a trainer.

Basically, the system now is working. But I hate muzzling her and I hate excluding her from our family gatherings. Like I said, my youngest son thinks she is his furry sister.

[dogzrulez]

well, it seems that this behaviour is a result of anxiety and maybe a certain bit of insecurity. you must give him ample attention and make him feel loved (i'm sure u do). however, it is of utmost importance that you rebuke cookie severely every time he misbehaves like this. no spanking or anythig, but just a stern scolding should be enough. also, let him see that you are friendly with the visitors (dogs have a sense of finding out who the master like and who he/she doesn't)

[RedyreRottweilers]

Originally Posted by dogzrulez

well, it seems that this behaviour is a result of anxiety and maybe a certain bit of insecurity. you must give him ample attention and make him feel loved (i'm sure u do). however, it is of utmost importance that you rebuke cookie severely every time he misbehaves like this. no spanking or anythig, but just a stern scolding should be enough. also, let him see that you are friendly with the visitors (dogs have a sense of finding out who the master like and who he/she doesn't)

Do you think it is wise to add to the stress, anxiety, and overexcitement of this dog by verbally intimidating it when it is feeling most anxious?

Personally, I think NOT. This issue is more complicated, which is why I urged the OP to get professional help.

[Alpha]

I agree, to find a trainer.

It was the best thing I ever did with Roxy who had very similar problems. She was literally unmanageable if you spoke to me on the street. She would do the same thing you described, lunging, snarling, snapping even frothing at the mouth. Never really at children though.

Other than finding a trainer, I don't have any specific advice because I don't want to lead you in the wrong direction All I can say is, building a strong bond with my dog through working with her daily was ultimately what helped us. We've been working in obedience for around a year, after three months I saw MAJOR improvements. We worked on the basics, sit/down/stays/heeling etc, and we also incorporated all of those commands into working on her other issues. At first it wasn't so much about making her love people, (we still haven't got there, don't know if we ever will! LOL) but it was more about her respecting my commands, even when we were in situations where she normally would've reacted.

Ex) Instead of lunging/snarling at an oncoming stranger, I would tell her to sit and watch me. All of our hard work in obedience is what helped Roxy along. It was mostly reward based, and her desire to "attack" was over run by her desire to comply with my wishes.

I've heard from speaking with other trainers just on the topic of kids and dogs, and the last thing they reccomend is to "ostracize" a dog. Now, I don't know, because in this situation it sounds pretty extreme and like this children could be in danger, but I guess the reasoning behind it, is keeping the dog away from people will only make them thing something is wrong them. I've read online that a primitive way of making a dog human agressive is crating them everytime someone enters your home. The dog never gets to interact with anyone so when they do, because it's not "the usual" they react. I don't know if it's true, but it somewhat rings in to what some trainers have told me about "ostracizing" your dog from people in general.

Good luck in finding a good trainer to help you guys out. I never imagine that Roxy would ever behave the way she does now. Remembering back to how she used to act, it's a miracle how far she is now.

[♥Forest♥]

im not sure if this would be true or not with your dog but dogs seem to sense better than we can on how good a persons quality is i guess ( i didnt know how to put that) im wondering maybe she is sensing something about certain peoples personality that is making her uneasy

[RonE]

I'm not sure we can afford a trainer.

Can you afford a lawsuit?

Note that there is an important difference between a trainer and a behaviorist. You need the latter to help understand and modify the dog's behavior before you end up losing the dog, a neighbor kid and everything you own.

[Lorina]

I'm not sure we can afford a trainer.

I couldn't really afford new brakes on my car, either, but an aggressive dog can be just as dangerous to the public as driving around without brakes.

[Jen D]

Are you muzzling her when she goes outside also? If she is tied in her area what is she going to do to one of these kids if they walk into her space?

[luv4gsds]

What I have read here so far it sounds like the dog was not properly socialized around people. When not properly socialized this will lead to dogs been aggressive. http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIP...onAdultDog.php To me the dog is showing signs of fear/territorial aggression. I would seek help from a professional that uses positive reinforcement training.

[XcomSquaddie]

Originally Posted by Jen D

Are you muzzling her when she goes outside also? If she is tied in her area what is she going to do to one of these kids if they walk into her space?

Whenever Cookie is outside, she is on a leash with either myself or my wife. We don't usually muzzle her outside. If she acts up outside we simply put her back in the house.

We would not leash her on a run outside or a yard stake unless we were going to be out there with her.

I've done some checking since I OP'd. There aren't too many Animal Behaviorists listed in my area, but I did find a few. I'm in the process of checking into them now.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by XcomSquaddie

Whenever Cookie is outside, she is on a leash with either myself or my wife. We don't usually muzzle her outside. If she acts up outside we simply put her back in the house.

We would not leash her on a run outside or a yard stake unless we were going to be out there with her.

I've done some checking since I OP'd. There aren't too many Animal Behaviorists listed in my area, but I did find a few. I'm in the process of checking into them now.

Thats good! If you cannot find a behaviorist how about signing the dog up for obiedience classes and talking to the trainer about the problem. If you find the right person they would come to you house also. This would help and would be cheaper to start with. Now Cookie is young right?

[XcomSquaddie]

Originally Posted by Jen D

Thats good! If you cannot find a behaviorist how about signing the dog up for obiedience classes and talking to the trainer about the problem. If you find the right person they would come to you house also. This would help and would be cheaper to start with. Now Cookie is young right?

Cookie is about 21 months old. We've had her for a year and she was 8-9 months old when we got her.

I spoke with four behavior specialists yesterday. All four programs involved the trainer coming to the house and assessing the animal, then working out a plan, more for us than the dog. That is pretty much want I wanted.

Costs ranged from $65-$100 per hour. All but one had a standardized time, in other words they expected the training to last x hours and cost x dollars. One guy was open ended. He wouldn't commit to a length.

(Of course, he was talking on his cellphone as he was walking through his kennel feeding the dogs. Just a bit noisy...)

The bad thing is that universally all four individuals stated that German Shepherds and shepherd mixes were very prone to this sort of aggression. They all also agreed that it was going to be difficult to break.

One trainer strongly believed that Cookie was abused before being placed in the shelter. My wife and I had speculated about that before, but there is no way to find out.

Our current plan is this:
We are deciding which specialist to use, and get started hopefully within two weeks. I'd rather not wait that long, but our schedules are fairly scrambled until then.

As far as Cookie goes, we're going to start locking her in our bedroom when necessary. It's better than the muzzle/crate options, in my opinion.

Hopefully, whichever trainer we pick will work out well.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by XcomSquaddie

Cookie is about 21 months old. We've had her for a year and she was 8-9 months old when we got her.

I spoke with four behavior specialists yesterday. All four programs involved the trainer coming to the house and assessing the animal, then working out a plan, more for us than the dog. That is pretty much want I wanted.

Costs ranged from $65-$100 per hour. All but one had a standardized time, in other words they expected the training to last x hours and cost x dollars. One guy was open ended. He wouldn't commit to a length.

(Of course, he was talking on his cellphone as he was walking through his kennel feeding the dogs. Just a bit noisy...)

The bad thing is that universally all four individuals stated that German Shepherds and shepherd mixes were very prone to this sort of aggression. They all also agreed that it was going to be difficult to break.

One trainer strongly believed that Cookie was abused before being placed in the shelter. My wife and I had speculated about that before, but there is no way to find out.

Our current plan is this:
We are deciding which specialist to use, and get started hopefully within two weeks. I'd rather not wait that long, but our schedules are fairly scrambled until then.

As far as Cookie goes, we're going to start locking her in our bedroom when necessary. It's better than the muzzle/crate options, in my opinion.

Hopefully, whichever trainer we pick will work out well.

I also think that a class with other people and dogs in it would help, but let the trainer know what you are dealing with.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Almost ALL group classes specifically forbid animals that are known to be aggressive. It is too dangerous. An instructor cannot watch this one dog every second, and it only takes a SECOND for something to happen.

This is why I recommended a behaviorist to this person, NOT A CLASS.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

Almost ALL group classes specifically forbid animals that are known to be aggressive. It is too dangerous. An instructor cannot watch this one dog every second, and it only takes a SECOND for something to happen.

This is why I recommended a behaviorist to this person, NOT A CLASS.

I am not going to argue with you on that but in this area it is allowed if the class is small and the trainer can keep that dog at a distance from the class. That is why I said to let the trainer know what they are dealing with to see if they can take it. If you are not there you cannot know what the whole reason is for dogs to act like they are or at what level they are at! There is lots of ideas I could throw out due to experience but won't because I don't know all that is going on.

[RedyreRottweilers]

My waiver and agreement to hold harmless form specifically excludes any dogs who are known to be aggressive to humans or other dogs.

If I CHOOSE to take on a dog and handler with these issues, it is much more expensive than regular private lessons or class situations due to the level of risk involved. If I do agree to take on such a case, these dogs and handlers must have private instruction until I can learn several things:

How serious the aggression problem is
What level of control the handler has
If the dog is a danger to other dogs or handlers

In my own personal opinion, it is much too dangerous, with far too many unknown variables and way too much personal liability, to allow such a dog in a class. I could not put the other class participants in that situation. It is disruptive to the class, and it would not be fair to them, their dogs, nor the other handler with the problem dog.

These are my reasons for not suggesting a class situation to a person who has a dog who is uncontrollably aggressive in numerous situations.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

My waiver and agreement to hold harmless form specifically excludes any dogs who are known to be aggressive to humans or other dogs.

If I CHOOSE to take on a dog and handler with these issues, it is much more expensive than regular private lessons or class situations due to the level of risk involved. If I do agree to take on such a case, these dogs and handlers must have private instruction until I can learn several things:

How serious the aggression problem is
What level of control the handler has
If the dog is a danger to other dogs or handlers

In my own personal opinion, it is much too dangerous, with far too many unknown variables and way too much personal liability, to allow such a dog in a class. I could not put the other class participants in that situation. It is disruptive to the class, and it would not be fair to them, their dogs, nor the other handler with the problem dog.

These are my reasons for not suggesting a class situation to a person who has a dog who is uncontrollably aggressive in numerous situations.

The thing is I do agree with you but I also read what was written by the guy and I think a class could help if a trainer would take him. I have in the past have taken many large agressive type dogs through classes with the trainer knowing what is going on and have not had a problem. I have also had the trainer come to my house and evaluate if I couldn't decide. This trainer also has had me wait if there were certain dog in the class or people that would have a hard time with a dog like I wanted to take to class.
The only reason I have gone to classes is because of all the other dogs and people. I train myself and have the experience with numerous breeds. I also can tell you have lots of experience just by what you write so I think that arguing with you is pointless because we are both on here for the best interest of dogs, can we agree on that?

[RedyreRottweilers]

We certainly can.