[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Dam2007

Ok, if he doesn't cooperate, can I do more than just ignore him to get the message across? Like tie him to the stair-post with a very short leash to restrict his movement as punishment? Or put him in a small crate (not the one he sleeps in) for a while? Or withold food until he takes the meds?

None of those things are going to solve your problem because he will have no idea why you're doing it. Ignoring him does work great if he wants something from you, but all he wants now is for you to leave him alone. So I disagree that ignoring him is the best solution.

Again, get the meds in him in a pleasant way, and start training with positive reinforcement so that he allows you to work with him without the stress.

Originally Posted by Amaya-Mazie-Marley

Um No. Taking his food from his is called animal cruelty, tying him to the stair post where he can't barely move but can see everyone around him walking around is also animal cruelty. When he starts acting like that he does need a time out. A crate is the best, if he is a puppy its also good to start house training him this way.

The problem with crating him after one of these wrestling matches is that it will be punishment. And the crate should never be used for punishment. There is no way that she's going to be able to put that dog in a crate, after the stress of wrestling with him, without giving off body language clues that she's upset - and that means punishment.

[Amaya-Mazie-Marley]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

Yes, this dog is out of control. Yes she needs to train the dog to accept her. But right now, she needs to get the medication in him, and hopefully without either of them getting hurt. Please don't use force by pinning him. Holding him in place is fine, pinning him, especially when you might be overstressed, can lead to broken bones in a dog that small. Please be careful.

Once again, can you not slip the liquid into something else? Can you mix it with a nonfat gravy? Pick your battles, and save training for a time when it's not so urgent to get meds into him.

Okay I disagree with this. Yes the medicine needs to be given to the dog, but how is that possible without training the dog first that it has to listen to his owner? This dog is out of control and the way the OP talks about it, its a very out of control dog that needs some serious help. She can't even administed medication to this dog. How many of you on here can't give your dog medication? I could go take pictures of me giving my dogs medications right now and all you would see was a happy dog sitting and waiting. This issue scares me. Talking about taking away a dogs food, talking about tying and restricting its movement. Both of those are animal cruelty. I really don't think you should have a dog. That is ridiculous, why would you even ask if that was okay to do. If you had kids would you tie them to the stairs or not give them food until they did something? NO or else your ass would go to jail. If you are going to get a dog, at least educate yourself beforehand.

[Dam2007]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

None of those things are going to solve your problem because he will have no idea why you're doing it. Ignoring him does work great if he wants something from you, but all he wants now is for you to leave him alone. So I disagree that ignoring him is the best solution.

Again, get the meds in him in a pleasant way, and start training with positive reinforcement so that he allows you to work with him without the stress.



The problem with crating him after one of these wrestling matches is that it will be punishment. And the crate should never be used for punishment. There is no way that she's going to be able to put that dog in a crate, after the stress of wrestling with him, without giving off body language clues that she's upset - and that means punishment.

Again, I would NOT be using the same crate that he sleeps in. I'd be using a different, slightly smaller one.

[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Dam2007

Again, I would NOT be using the same crate that he sleeps in. I'd be using a different, slightly smaller one.

A crate is a crate. Crates should not be used for punishment.

[Dam2007]

Originally Posted by Amaya-Mazie-Marley

Okay I disagree with this. Yes the medicine needs to be given to the dog, but how is that possible without training the dog first that it has to listen to his owner? This dog is out of control and the way the OP talks about it, its a very out of control dog that needs some serious help. She can't even administed medication to this dog. How many of you on here can't give your dog medication? I could go take pictures of me giving my dogs medications right now and all you would see was a happy dog sitting and waiting. This issue scares me. Talking about taking away a dogs food, talking about tying and restricting its movement. Both of those are animal cruelty. I really don't think you should have a dog. That is ridiculous, why would you even ask if that was okay to do. If you had kids would you tie them to the stairs or not give them food until they did something? NO or else your ass would go to jail. If you are going to get a dog, at least educate yourself beforehand.

OK, first of all, RELAX. If I were cruel, I would just do it without consulting experienced owners, like I am now. It was merely one idea out of many, contemplated in desperation and fear for the health of the dog. Second, seeing as how there are plenty of dogs around town tied to a post so their owners can run into a Starbucks, I didn't think it was exceptionally cruel.

[DogAdvocat]

Those owners are idiots, and in danger of losing their dogs. But beyond that, those owners aren't in desperation when they tie their dogs up. And believe me, your dog can read your body language.

Since you're answering so quickly, can you tell me why you won't consider giving him the meds in another form, like mixed with nonfat gravy?

[Amaya-Mazie-Marley]

Theres a differance in tying your dog to a post for 5 minutes with a regular loose leash to go get coffee than "Like tie him to the stair-post with a very short leash to restrict his movement as punishment?" That is animal cruelty yes. Why would you punish an animal that has no way of understand what you are doing to him and why. A firm NO is good enough then get up and walk away. You need to train your dog and I'm sorry if I'm coming off rude but this thread is insane.

[DogAdvocat]

I don't think any of us mean to be rude, but I think we're responding to a sense of urgency in this. I'm feeling like I need to make myself clear before you do something that will get you bit, or hurt the dog.

[Jen D]

Dam2007, Like said above going to the vet for a lesson is a good idea and I will tell you if the dog is ten pounds don't let him see the meds coming and hold his muzzle just enough he can't bite you. Then put the meds in the back of his mouth on the outside of his teeth through his lips and slowly give it. He won't choke or be able to bite you if done right, I have had numerouse dogs to the vets that have been given liqued meds like that.

[DogAdvocat]

The thing is, just holding his muzzle is going to make him pull backwards, which will make her loose grip of his muzzle, and she's liable to be bit. At best this is a job for two people, one to hold the dog and it's head, the other to hold the muzzle and operate the syringe.

Unless, of course, the liquid is administered in some other way that doesn't require handling the dog.

Save training for after the meds are administered. First things first.

Let's remember this is a new dog, and still is going to have trust issues. If those are made worse, then training is going to be that much harder.

[Lorina]

If it's meds that taste like bubblegum, it's probably liquid amoxil. You should be able to get that in pill form from your vet. By the sounds of it, it would be easier to hide a pill in a bit of canned food, lunchmeat or cheese than wrestled with a scared dog who's acting aggressively.

The way I give liquids to my cats is to wrap a towel around the chest & front legs like a bib, then pin her body between my legs, facing away from me, as I'm sitting on the floor. Holding the head with one hand, I press the end of the syringe against the side of the mouth with the other until they open it enough to squirt it in as fast as I can. Release and praise.

But with a dog? I think pills are way easier.

[Dam2007]

Well here's an update - I took the dog back to my vet and insisted that someone show me how to deliver the medication. So one of the nurses (or whatever you call them) just sat with the dog between his legs, the dog facing away from him, grabbing him around the muzzle with two fingers of one hand (middle-finger under the muzzle, index finger crossing just below the eyes, and shoved the syringe in his mouth with the other. He was more forceful with the dog than I ever imagined one could be. The dog struggled, but not nearly as violently as he did with me, and did not make a keep or snap at the doc once. The doc probably told me that the main problem was that the dog sensed my anxiety and lack of confidence. So he had me practice with him a few times afterwards, and I think I can do it. I'll let you folks know tonight.

[DogAdvocat]

Wonderful. I'm glad you did that. Good luck.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

The thing is, just holding his muzzle is going to make him pull backwards, which will make her loose grip of his muzzle, and she's liable to be bit. At best this is a job for two people, one to hold the dog and it's head, the other to hold the muzzle and operate the syringe.

Unless, of course, the liquid is administered in some other way that doesn't require handling the dog.

Save training for after the meds are administered. First things first.

Let's remember this is a new dog, and still is going to have trust issues. If those are made worse, then training is going to be that much harder.

That is why I have my mothers Corgi sit in the corner so he can't back up, I have had good luck with that approch but I do see what you are saying.

Originally Posted by Dam2007

Well here's an update - I took the dog back to my vet and insisted that someone show me how to deliver the medication. So one of the nurses (or whatever you call them) just sat with the dog between his legs, the dog facing away from him, grabbing him around the muzzle with two fingers of one hand (middle-finger under the muzzle, index finger crossing just below the eyes, and shoved the syringe in his mouth with the other. He was more forceful with the dog than I ever imagined one could be. The dog struggled, but not nearly as violently as he did with me, and did not make a keep or snap at the doc once. The doc probably told me that the main problem was that the dog sensed my anxiety and lack of confidence. So he had me practice with him a few times afterwards, and I think I can do it. I'll let you folks know tonight.

Good Luck dogs can be something!

[Dam2007]

OK, here is the update...

Since we got back from the vet, I have occasionally been placing him the way the vet placed him - me sitting down, the lower part of his body squeezed between my legs, his upper back against my stomach, me grabbing his upper jaw from above and slowly lifting, and sneaking in the syringe with the other hand. After his mouth opened I placed a treat inside and then let him go and praised him. I did this a few times to get him relaxed in that position.

Then just a few minutes ago, I sat him on my lap, gave him a treat, hid the syringe under the blanket next to me, then put him in the same position. Now this is the incredible part: even though we practiced this at least 5 times today without incident, this time, as I tried lifting his jaw, he started growling...almost like he knew the medication was coming. (I should mention that my heart was pounding as I was doing this).

So I put him on the ground and showed him a treat, as if to say, "chill out, I'm just gonna pop a treat in your mouth like we've been doing today, ok?" So I lifted his jaw again, and quickly snuck in the syringe and pushed the liquid in. Well, half or more of the liquid ended up on the floor or on his paw, but it was a semi-victory, but did not go nearly as well as I would have liked.

After that, I picked him up again, gave him a treat, and tried opening his mouth again...and he went berserk, growling and snapping. I quickly threw him off my lap.

Thoughts? This is really getting on my nerves.

[DogAdvocat]

The fact that you recognized your heart was pounding means that you were telegraphing your nervousness to him.

I'm going to try once again to make this point. I'm repeating it because you really aren't responding to it, so I don't know if you're getting it or not. Your dog is new, and he's going to naturally have trust issues. He doesn't know you, and he naturally wants to protect himself against what he may see as attacks from you. All this that you're doing with him is only going to increase his lack of trust. I can't stress more highly the importance of taking the easiest route on this, and putting the medication in something (like a meatball, or mixed with nonfat gravy that he can lick out of the syringe), so you can medicate quickly and pleasantly, and move on to getting to know and trust each other.

Getting to know and trust each other should be done with training using positive reinforcement. He needs to know you won't hurt him. If this biting issue were something you were dealing with in a dog you'd had for a long time, then it would be another thing, but this is a new dog. Get the meds in him in the easiest possible way, and start training, and have patience.

[Dam2007]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

The fact that you recognized your heart was pounding means that you were telegraphing your nervousness to him.

I'm going to try once again to make this point. I'm repeating it because you really aren't responding to it, so I don't know if you're getting it or not. Your dog is new, and he's going to naturally have trust issues. He doesn't know you, and he naturally wants to protect himself against what he may see as attacks from you. All this that you're doing with him is only going to increase his lack of trust. I can't stress more highly the importance of taking the easiest route on this, and putting the medication in something (like a meatball, or mixed with nonfat gravy that he can lick out of the syringe), so you can medicate quickly and pleasantly, and move on to getting to know and trust each other.

Getting to know and trust each other should be done with training using positive reinforcement. He needs to know you won't hurt him. If this biting issue were something you were dealing with in a dog you'd had for a long time, then it would be another thing, but this is a new dog. Get the meds in him in the easiest possible way, and start training, and have patience.

OK, good post, thanks. I guess you're right...I think I am taking what he is doing too personally. Anyway, as we speak, I hear him eating some of the pieces of lamb that I coated with the medication. Not sure if he likes it or is going to finish it, but we'll see.

[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Dam2007

OK, good post, thanks. I guess you're right...I think I am taking what he is doing too personally. Anyway, as we speak, I hear him eating some of the pieces of lamb that I coated with the medication. Not sure if he likes it or is going to finish it, but we'll see.

Great, let us know how it goes. It does kind of sound like you've taken an adversarial position with him, and it would be much better to relax and be his soft place to land since he's so new. But as soon as possible, do start the training because you don't want this biting thing to get out of hand (no pun intended). He needs to know you're boss, but you don't have to be a mean boss.

Just think how you would feel if you landed in a new job, with people speaking a different language, and they were trying to not only force things down your throat, but also were yelling at you, shoving you in the closet, and seemed angry all the time. LOL. You'd probably want to bite too, or at least pee on their leg.

Does he already know how to sit on command? If not, do you know how to get him started doing that? Start watching him and anything he does that you think is a good thing, even without your asking him to - name it and praise it. If he sits on his own - "Sit, good boy !" If he lays down - "Down, good boy !" etc. Think of it as teaching him your language. And use his name only for good. You want it to be the sweetest word on earth to him.

[Amaya-Mazie-Marley]

I agree with DogAdvocat. You've had your dog for a week I think you said, so I would do some exercises with him to help him trust you. When I first brought both of my girls home they were nervous and didn't really want to interact with anyone. I had them on leads already to get them used to a leash. So when they were close enough I casually grabbed the leash, but I would lay down in the floor. I would lay on my stomach and offer them treats. They would come for treats but quickly back away. I did this for a week for sometimes hours at a time and eventually they realized I wasn't going to hurt them. I continued to do so after they got used to me, to strengthen the trust. If you don't want to lay in the floor just sit in a chair or in the floor where he can get to you, since he's so small and offer him treats and talk in a soft voice. Always praise him when he comes to you, after a while you can start using his name, and its a great start for recall training.

[Dam2007]

To answer your question, DogAdvocat, no, he doesn't sit on command...but I saw some youtube videos on clicker training, and have been doing that for the last couple of days...hold the treat in my hand, bring it up over his head, wait for him to put his ass on the floor, say "Sit!" just before it happens, hit the clicker when it hits the floor, then give the treat immediately after, with praise. He sits most of the time this way, but so far he doesn't respond to "Sit" without the treat and the over the head movement. Am I doing this right? How long do I have to do this for? When should I move to the next step? What IS the next step?

I have also been working on "Stay" with him - I walk around the room with him, then tell him "Stay" in a firm voice. I then turn and face him, point my finger at him and again say "Stay"....I very slowly back away, pointing at him and saying "Stay" every few seconds, occasionally snapping my fingers or doing the Caesar Milan style "Sh!" to keep him focused on me. If he moves, I lightly jerk the chain to the side and say "No!", then start over. If he stays and remains focused for a good amount of time (up to 15-25 seconds at this point), I say, "good boy! come here!" and give him a treat. We also practice this on the sidewalk and walking up and down the stairs.

today we also practiced stair-climbing/descending. I noticed that when we go up and down the stairs (especially after putting his harness+leash on and heading upstairs/outside), he gets very excited and runs ahead of me, and also crosses thresholds of doors ahead of me, which I was told should not be allowed. So today I put the chain & leash on him (giving him a treat after putting it on, making sure it isn't associated purely with correction) and practiced going up and down the stairs. We start at the bottom...if he runs up without waiting for me, I pull him back and say "No!". So I wait for him to relax, climb the next step, and repeat the procedure if he bolts ahead of me again. We continue up the staircase...then I open the door at the top, again gently pulling him back and telling him to stay until I cross the threshold. Sometimes I make him stay at the bottom step and repeat the "Stay" exercise above, until I get about a 3rd of the way up, then say "good boy, come!", treat, then pet him. We only practiced this twice for 10 minutes at a time, and already he is much more hesitant to run up or down the stairs ahead of me.

Any comments are welcome and appreciated.