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Old 05-30-2007, 10:55 AM   #1
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ok...need some advice please!!

Hey everyone.
I was askd by my boss if I could take this little cat home with me for a few weeks until she is all healed. She was brought in about a week and a half ago because she had been hit by a car and her back leg and hip had been broken. She has had surgery and is healing very nicely and she is so sweet and gentle. We all ended up pitching in to pay for her surgery because the breaks were not very severe but they did need surgery, so now that she is ging to be alright someone has to take her home to heal while we find her a new home. She looks like a siamese cat but she is orange and cream and I have never seen that colour. We named her Angie. I have been working with her for the past two days starting her therapy so that she canheal faster and have less pain medication and it seems to be working and she is SOOOO sweet, I just love her.
My problem is this. I will take Angie home but I am not sure how to introduce Chloe and Sadie. She will be in a big kennel while she heals and I will put the kennel in my living room but how the heck do I introduce Chloe and Sadie??? Chloe doesn't mind cats in the house but the feral ones outside....well now that is another story haha! I don't want to stress the poor girl out and I told my boss I would give it a three night trial and if the dogs aren't going for it then she will have to go to someone elses house. I don't want to bring her to my place and get her hopes up only to give her to someone else though so does anyone have any advice they can offer me??
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:58 AM   #2
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Introducing Dogs & Cats



A dog's ability to live with a specific cat does not mean that it is "good" with all cats. It may mean that the dog has no prey drive, but it could also mean that the dog "possessed" a specific cat, or lived where an alpha possessed a specific cat(s). A dog can live with cat(s) while still maintaining prey drive around all other cats; this is because the dog considers the cat a possession or a packmate, not prey. It doesn't lump all cats into one basket and treat them all alike. Pack hassling over position can even spill over into fights over (or attacks upon) the "possession" (i.e. take-away).

There's some basic principles in order for a dog and cat (or bunny or bird or whatever) to be able to live together:

1) A German Shepherd Dog's instinct to possess overrides its prey drive. But this is not true for some other breeds such as terriers, sighthounds and Ridgebacks.

2) A dog will accept a cat (or other animal) either as a possession or a pack mate if opportunity for interaction is given where the dog cannot see the cat as prey.

3) The dog must accept its owner as "alpha" and take its cue on how to treat the cat(s) from the owner. The owner, however, should not be perceived as "possessing" the cat.

The plan that follows will not to stop the dog from chasing all cats. It works to establish a sense of "pack" and possession of the cat in the dog's mind. The steps below allow the dog and cat to interact in a controlled manner in order to establish a sense of possession in the dog while keeping the cat safe while this process is underway. I value my cats' safety so I take no chances.

Steps

All these steps are important and they need to be done in order. It's easier to introduce a dog to a cat who has never been threatened by a dog because the cat will interact with the dog more quickly, but this works for existing situations once the cat realizes it's safe. Some cats are easier to work with than others as well.

You do not want your dog to believe that you are possessing the cat- the dog must feel that he or she possesses the cat. Otherwise, the dog can see the cat as something to try to steal away from its owner, especially if there is any question of the owner being the pack "alpha".

During the learning process, the dog must never be allowed to chase the cat(s) or to play games that put it in prey drive while the cat is present. If this isn't done, the process will not work. Work with one dog at a time if possible.

1) The owner of the dog must become the alpha dog in the household. The dog has to realize that it is not alpha and must take its cues from the human pack members as to who it accepts. The owner needs to have established a level of control without creating a robo-dog.

2) When the dog is introduced to the household, the cats are shut away in another room. This is also true if you are introducing a cat into a household with dogs. There are no exceptions at all. Especially don't carry a cat in your arms if a dog is loose. This can be dangerous for cat, dog and human. A child should never ever carry a cat or small animal in its arms around a loose dog.

3) When the cats are allowed out freely to roam without human supervision, the dog must be outside or where it cannot see the cat. It cannot be inside in a crate where it can see and/or bark or lunge at the cat without correction. This is vital and the entire process will not work if this isn't done properly.

4) Shut the dog in its crate and allow the cat(s) out hopefully to walk past the dog crate. If the dog barks or lunges within the crate, the dog is verbally corrected. Make sure that the cats are in another room behind a closed door before letting the dog have its time out of the crate. I'm not talking about keeping the dog in the crate all the time, it's more keeping the cats in another room most of the time. The dog is crated while the cats are out, and then let out of the crate for most of the time. This may take several days or weeks to accomplish. It depends on how quickly the cat comes around to the dog's crate area (which should be with the family).

5) Do not comfort, pet or fuss over the cats where the dog can see it from his crate. Especially don't do this after the dog has barked or lunged at the cat. Correct only the dog. This is because you do not want the dog to see the cat as your possession.

6) Accustom the dog to a muzzle while it is hanging out in its crate. It will be muzzled when it goes to the vet or is groomed (even if we don't see it, it happens), so this way the dog is used to a muzzle. Leave it on for 10 - 15 minutes at a time if it isn't hot. If it's hot, the dog must not be muzzled because it can't pant. The muzzle is only a temporary tool. But the muzzle must be used for the cat's sake.

7) After 10-14 days where the dog does not bark or lunge at the cat and the cat is comfortable walking around the crate, it's show time!

8) Put a prong collar with a six foot leash on the dog. Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your voice and the collar. This is important - the correction must be physically very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need to be corrected at all).

Do not correct the dog for sniffing at the cat. Sniffing is very good and is to be encouraged. Attention barking is also okay. The dog will feel any nervousness or tension of the owner via the leash and feed off of it, so it's important to be calm. That's also why the muzzle is on the dog - the owner knows the cat is safe no matter what. Do this for about 5-10 minutes at first, then put the dog or cat away. Try to be observant to end the session while both dog and cat are doing well. You can spin out the time until its an hour or so.

9) Each time the dog first sees the cat, it gets a food treat. Cat = a cookie. If the dog is showing too much interest in the cat (like scenting for it), distract the dog by giving it something else to do, like a sit or heel with praise for doing what you've told it to do rather than automatically giving it a cookie. You can't reward the dog for not chasing the cat but you can reward it for doing something you've asked of it.

10) There is no playing ball, running or chasing about the house, either by dogs, cats or humans while the dog and cat are out together. This is because care needs to be taken to see that the dog doesn't go into prey drive. This needs to continue throughout this entire process.

11) Supervise the interaction and after 7-10 days where the dog has not had to be corrected, the prong and leash control can be eliminated. Even if you never had to correct the dog, it's important to wait 7-10 days. Leave on the muzzle. The dog and cat are not left unsupervised. If the dog chases the cat during this period, it's back to item #8.

12) After about four-six weeks where the owner has not observed any prey drive in the dog towards its cat, it is time to do without the muzzle. Interaction should still be supervised and the two animals never left alone unless there is a place for the cat to go to safety. If you've got a dog who is possessive about food, obviously you don't let the cat near when the dog is eating. Since cat food is very unhealthy for dogs, the cat's food should not be where the dog can reach it.

That's pretty much it.

If there's multiple dogs in the household, there can be discord over possession. The cat can be seen as an object to be taken away. This is also true if the dog perceives the cat to be the possession of the owner.

There are some harder cases, and then it's a matter of the commitment level of the owner to making the dog accept the cat. Electronics can be used to imprint on the dog. These should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was being used. This type of training will also tend to result in a dog which does not chase cats at all because it is not building on the pack and possession instinct aspects of behavior.

A dog who chases cats endangers both the cat and itself. A cat scratch in a dog's eye can cause infection, cataracts, glaucoma, loss of sight or even loss of an eye. I know this from experience with my Maya, who will chase any cat other than her own. About 5 months ago when I stepped out of the office, she chased and cornered Sylshire's kennel cat. The cat was just fine (thank goodness) but Maya nearly lost an eye from a deep cat scratch. Maya has since been trained using electronics to do a sit when she sees any cat.

She associates cats with an electronic correction and has learned to avoid the correction by performing her sit. I took about two or so weeks to train and proof her. Strangely, she doesn't do the sit automatically when she sees her own cats, which is what leads me to think that she does not lump all cats into one mental basket. She is also doing the sit thing when she sees squirrels on our walks ... kind of interesting. Can she recognize the drive or feeling she gets upon seeing prey and that's why she's doing her sit thing?

Maybe somebody who knows about these things can answer that?

Contributed by Laurie Shaft (SFBAGS Rescue volunteer)

Found here: http://www.sfgsrescue.org/articles/cat.htm
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:03 AM   #3
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Oh thank-you snowshoe. That is interesting, I won't be using a prong collar or a muzzle for my ladies, I don't think I will need to because Angie will be in a crate because of her injury. I will try the treats and leash them the first time we introduce them. Angie seems to be fine with other dogs but then again she has been in a vets office and has been very sleepy because of the pain meds and anti-inflamatories she is on.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:04 AM   #4
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Is your concern the impact on your girls or on the little cat? Either way, I would suggest that you keep the cat away from the girls for the first few hours, but maybe bring a bit of blanket that the cat has lain on out to where the dogs are so they can have a sniff, and maybe put something the dogs use habitually in the same area as the cat (not in her crate in case it's too much for her). The next step might be to have the cat in her crate but up high where the dogs can't reach her, but bring them into the same room so they can all see each other but not actually get at each other. Then, presuming they are still calm in each other's company, you can bring the cat's crate down to a level where the dogs can sniff at her. The cat may freak out if she thinks the dogs can get at her and she's got nowhere to go, but you'll just have to go slow and play by ear.

When we introduced our cat to Tess it took about a week of very careful and slow introductions, but by about day four he would sit on top of his box and look at Tess on the floor. Tess doesn't chase though, and I have to report that our attempts at careful introductions of Coco to Jaffa (cat) have not been so successful. But Jaff has always got an escape route, either out of the catflap or onto a high sill or up the stairs.

In your case your little convalescent won't be agile enough to nip away if she feels the need. Hope some of this helps, and good luck. You are a big-hearted person for wanting to help this poor little thing. She sounds adorable.

AH, Snowshoe has beaten me to it!
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:15 AM   #5
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Well I am worried about all of them. Angie has enough stress with her injury and Chloe and Sadie have had enough stress themselves over the last few months without having a new buddy to deal with. Angie will be staying in her crate. She has a little box and food and water, it is a pretty huge crate.
I like the idea of letting the girls have a towel Angie has laid on to get used to her smell. I will put her in my bedroom because the living room doesn't have enough room for her crate.
I don't know if I will keep her because we aren't big cat people here but she is so sweet and nice that if she gets along with the dogs I think I will have to. I think my boss made me take her on purpose haha!
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:24 AM   #6
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Quote:
I don't know if I will keep her because we aren't big cat people here but she is so sweet....
And that's how dog people become cat people, too.

I don't have any advice to add, but she sounds like a flame point siamese or mix.

http://www.google.com/search?q=flame+point+siamese
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:25 AM   #7
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Well it sounds like you can have her on a trial-run basis anyway. I think it's a good idea if you have Angie in a low-traffic area where she will be calm in her crate. I also liked the suggestion of bringing the dogs in (one at a time?) on a leash so they can't lunge at the crate. If she's going to be in the crate for the foreseeable, then Chloe and Sadie will have had time to get used to the idea of her presence before she's ever let out and may be perceived to be "prey".

Do you know about the hormone spray that you can get if cats (and dogs??) are highly stressed? I saw something on the internet about it not so long ago, I'll try and find it again. A friend had a cat hit by a car who then wouldn't go outside and used to pee on their cooker-hob (yuk, I know) and she responded very well to the hormone spray.
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Old 06-01-2007, 07:51 PM   #8
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

That hormone spray sounds interesting Tess&Coco, if you find it let me know about it.
Just to update you all though, Angie is here and her kennel is in my bedroom. She is doing very well and is eating and drinking normally so I don't think she is to stressed out (thank god!). Chloe is taking her time getting used to her, she won't go near the cage, but rather sits on my bed looking down at her and growling very very softly. I am giving her lots of treats and praising her whenever she is quite. Sadie on the other hand is a different story, she took one look at Angie and I swear to god she fell in love. She walked over to the cage very slowly and submissively and started sniffing her through the bars and then licking and then tried to jam her head through the bars! She is alright with her. I haven't let Angie out of the cage with the dogs in the room yet. She only comes out to have the kennel cleaned and to have her stitches checked. She will be getting them out next Tuesday.
Lorina, I checked those pictures and she is definitely a flame point. She has that soft orange on her face and legs and tail and a cream body and I looked up the breed on google and she looks exactly like the other pictures I have seen. We checked her for a microchip or a tattoo and found none so I will advertise her picture at the humane society for a little while. Oh and I totally agree with you this is how people become cat lovers. She is so sweet and affectionate. I always thought cats were very independant and aloof but she is the polar opposite of all the other cats I have met. And she is so pretty to. If we can't find her a suitable home....I think we may have a new kitty!
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:30 AM   #9
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

It sounds like things are going pretty well - better than you expected anyway. If you still need the back-up, this is an ad (sorry, moderators, couldn't find references to the product that weren't) for both dog and cat hormones.

http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod1.asp?ID=153
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Old 06-04-2007, 07:24 AM   #10
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

This may have been said already so I will make it short seeing I didn't read it all. Having stray cats outside, one named Jack that is in and out, two dogs, and one that hates cats. I would introduce one dog only at a time, the one you think would do the best, I htink you will need more then three nights, depending how the cat is recovering because you don't want it to hurt itself again. My cat hating dog will never like them but I am able to put her in a stay well Jack goes in and out. It also helps that the foolish old cat isn't afraid of dogs! With time I think you will make it work, you sound like a great person good luck.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:35 PM   #11
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Angie is being allowed out of her cage twice a day, she has run of the bedroom and the dining room and thats it. We watch her very closely and the dogs are not allowed to bother her when she is out. Chloe is still not very taken by her, she completely ignors her and the other day when Angie was out she stuck her nose through the baby gate to sniff Chloe and Chloe actually got up snorted loudly and walked away towards the couch growling! She hasn't shown aggression towards her only hostility in the form of growling and ignoring which is ok by me.
Angie cannot jump onto anything yet and she is still very stiff in her leg but I have been working with her alot these last few days and she is getting better slowly. When she goes in next week for her x-ray to make sure everything is o track I am going to discuss starting hydro therapywith her because I think the water, heat and movement she will be exerting in the pool would be very good for her. But until then....lets get Chloe to like her. Sadie still loves her and gets VERY upset with me when I put her in the living room and kitchen to let Angie walk around. She sits at the gate and barks incessantly but unfortunately for her I want Angie to be more steady on her feet before we let Sadie in to see her.
I think I wil let Sadie wander with her next week after her x-ray if everything pans out the way we are hoping....and just to let everyone know....shes staying with us!

I almsot forgot, one of my co-workers mad me really mad the other day because of a story she told me. She said she once brought home a 2 year old male cat and she has two female dogs. Well she said she left the cat alone with the dogs and went to get a drink about ten minutes after she introduced the cat to the dogs and the dogs ended up killing the poor cat. She told me I can never leave my dogs and cat alone because Chloe could kill the cat and then I would be liable for its death and I could be sued. I was like "ok # 1 - I would never leave Chloe alone with any animal except Sadie # 2 - who would sue me? Angie is my cat in two days when I get her paperwork and # 3 - I am not a moron like you who trusts my dogs (who are known for their hyper activity) to be alone with a cat they just met two minutes before." ACK!!

Last edited by Chloef_2799; 06-05-2007 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:16 AM   #12
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Congratulations on your new addition, and kudos to you for providing a forever home for Angie!

Since the cat will need to be crated while healing after the surgery, this will be fairly easy.

Place a blanket on both ends of the crate, with just a small open section closest to the end where Angie's litter box will be. This will allow privacy for sleeping and for using the box, and Angie has the option of peeking out at Chloe, or staying "hidden." Introduce Chloe with a leash on her, so she can't rush the crate. Have yummy treats for Chloe to reinforce calm behavior. You want Chloe to associate good things happening around the cat.

I've used this method with feral cats I've brought home from work when introducing them to my crew, but my living and dining rooms have French doors to close each room off from other areas of the house (so the cat wouldn't be in the crate 24/7), and wouldn't have to be subjected to my dogs and cats at all times. Tommy, my little feral fella, took 3 weeks before he ventured out of the crate (of his own accord).

Good luck to you!

Last edited by poodleholic; 06-06-2007 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:42 AM   #13
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

I second the idea of giving Chloe treats when she sees the cat. Obviously if she is exhibiting behaviour you want to eliminate then wait until she is calm before treating, but if you can catch her *before* she starts growling or whatever then that could be good too: Cat=treat!

Yes, I would be annoyed if someone made those statements to me too. Your co-worker doesn't seem to know you very well....
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Old 06-06-2007, 05:30 AM   #14
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Some people just don't have a clue when it comes to animals, just like some that have kids. The most wild kids make it through life and the ones that are cared for, have rules, seem to have problems while the others make it through.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:46 PM   #15
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Yeah Angie comes out of her crate for a few hours but she gets tired pretty quickyl and she seems to prefer chilling out in her crate as well. Maybe it is because I bought her a nice fluffy velvety pillow to sleep on it it?? haha! Her crate has a blanket over the top in the area where her bed it and the litter box is being kept in the dining room right now as with her kennel because we can easily keep the dogs out of that room with the baby gates. Chloe is very very VERY slowly startng to come around. In fact just today she walked by Angie cage and instead of walking by as if nothing was in it she stopped and stared at Angie for a few seconds and then walked away. Well needless to say I gave her lots of treats and loving after that and she did it a few more times (walking by the cage and not ignoring or growling at poor Angie I mean).
Sadie has taken to laying right next to the cage and trying as hard as she can to morph into a fly so she can get inside and snuggle with Angie. The two of the lay on opposite side of the door and sniff each other noses and Sadie keeps trying to lick Angie but Angie won't let her. I think it is because Sadie has dog breath but it could also be that Angie just doesn't like being licked by animals other than herself.
I was petting Angie this morning and I found her spay scar so I know she has been spayed and we all agree she is very young. Probably only 2 or 3 so she either ran away or was abandoned because she was is pretty good shape when she came in....other than the being hit by a car part. Poor little lady. I still have her pictures being sent around to different shelters in the area to see if anyone has reported her missing and if we don't find an owner in the next month than I will be keeping her. I have all of her paper work from the vets office now and as soon as that one month mark hits (July 1) my vet will give me the papers that state I rescued her and am her official owner!
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:49 PM   #16
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Angie got ehr stitches out yesterday and is doing really well. I let Sadie into the room today while I was holding her on my lap. Sadie jumped onto the couch and layed next to her. She was sad because I wouldn't let them play around because I don't want Angie being hurt in case Sadie is a bit to rough with her. Chloe sat in the door way just staring at her. She didn't growl or bark, she just sat there staring. I called her over a few times but she would only stand up and either take one step towards me and sit back down or turn around and walk into the other room. I won't rush them or force them together, I will let them figure it out on their own terms. Chloe is getting much better with her when she is in the kennel though. I keep the door open but Angie prefers to lay in the kennel and Chloe stand on the opposite side from the door and just sniffs her. I am glad they are doing better and I am VERY glad Angie is healing well. Thanks for all the advice....I am hoping this is the begining of a beautiful thing!
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:39 AM   #17
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

Yay! Great news! It sounds like you are on your way to having three happy and well-adjusted pets! So... where are the piccies??
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:40 PM   #18
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Re: ok...need some advice please!!

They are doing well and hopefully I will soon have three muskaters instead of the two little devils!
I would have a million pictures posted but I don't have a digital camera otherwise like I said....this post would be inundated with pictures of them!
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