[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

Dont get me wrong, I am a firm believer too that dogs need proper attention, but in all reality, "you can be gone 10 hours a day, and still raise a dog IF you are willing to work at it."
Its very judgemental to say that because (lets just say) 90% of owners end up with bad behaviours from their dogs because of how "they" went about things... the remaining 10% should not be able to make it work.

But how is a breeder or a rescue to know if you are the one that will make it work? As rescue, how are you going to convince me that you will make the time to properly care for MY rescue dog, so that I don't get it back and have to rehab it again before placement. Also, how are you going to convince me that you can do better with your limited time, than the other applicant I got who has a family member that works at home or is just home most of the day? And finally, though you can show me the dogs you already have as proof of proper care, how are you going to convince me that you can handle the needs of yet another dog? Personally, I think that it's easier to care for two dogs than just one, but each added one becomes more difficult.

Now you may not think you need to convince me of anything, but no rescue or responsible breeder who cares about their dogs, is going to want to put them in a position where failure has such a high probability. So please, try to think if it from the angle of the person that's trying to find the best home for their dog, so it will have a long healthy and happy life.

Originally Posted by taurus

why couldnt it? and whats wrong with the dog bieng outside for 6 hours by itself with food water a comfortable place to sleep and tons of toys?

* Dogs left outside are subject to being stolen, more so than if they were inside.
* Dogs left outside are subject to cruel people or inquisitive children.
* Dogs left outside are in danger of gates being left open by meter readers, or even being attacked by meter readers that are afraid for their own safety.
* Dogs left outside are more likely to bark and annoy the neighbors. They can become territorial of their yard, and even bark at airplanes, which when the dog barks, always fly away.
* Dogs left with toys are not necessarily going to play with them because they are not interactive. A ball is not a toy unless there is a person throwing the ball. And yes, some dogs will throw their own ball, but not most. It's kind of like a person with a tennis racket - it gets pretty boring if there is no one to return your serve.
* Dogs have heightened senses that encourage them to explore things we don't even notice. Is there a bubbling sound underground? A bored dog will investigate that and unearth sprinkler pipes. A bored dog will find an interesting spot in the fence and dig under and out. A bored dog will jump up to see what that sound is on the other side of the fence, and possibly jump over to it's peril.
* A tired dog IS less likely to do all of these things, but how long can tired last when the dog is left alone for 10 hours a day?

Damage can be done by a bored dog inside too, but at least the dog is safe from other people, other animals, and possible escape.

I've heard the suggestion that dogs mental capacity is equal with a 2-4 year old child. Would any of us approve of leaving a 2-4 year old child in a fenced yard without attention for 10 hours a day?

[PsiElement]

I go to Culinary school and I work part-time at a kennel/doggy daycare/Vetrinary hospital. I'm gone anywhere from a min. of 6 hours a day to 10 hours a day. I still plan on getting a Westie and I don't think my absence from home will be a HUGE issue like some people make it out to be.

I think with all animals it's important that they learn to entertain themselves. Maybe 10 hours of self-entertainment is a lot, but 5 hours to me isn't asking for much. Heck, my boyfriend's mother leaves their dog alone in the house for about seven hours a day and he's as friendly and happy as can be. For people to imply it's cruel and mean is pretty ridiculous considering how happy he is. It's up to the owner to teach the dog how to do that and it isn't a huge expectation, in my opinion.

If people have less spare time then others but still want a dog and are educated and dedicated, I don't see why so many people are like OH GOD DON'T GET A DOG! How many stay at home mom's end up not training dogs they buy for their kids to "teach responsibility" and those dogs end up at shelters and worse?

For me it's a little easier I suppose that after I get done with classes (I leave at 6:30 am and am home around 12 pm) I can come home and play with the dog and walk him, etc.. I also have the option of bringing my dog to work with me and boarding him in doggy daycare for half-price.

On most superficial accounts, and by superficial I mean "yes or no" questions, I don't qualify.

Live in an apartment, gone for more than 5 hours a day, non-fenced in yard, own another pet. But then there's stuff not immediately found out through those simple "yes or no" questions. I can get almost free doggy daycare, I live next door to a massive park and walk/jog on a regular basis, my cat is good with dogs and very laid back, not to mention never uses his claws (he plays with my Aunt's westies all the time.. though he has defended himself from the neighbors aggressive lab quite brilliantly so I know he won't get torn apart by a Westie)

I think the important thing is to look at the overall quality of life for the dog. Not just the quantity of time that the human and the dog will be home at the same time!

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by peace36

Wimble Woof. Sorry if I missed it but where are your 4 dogs all day while nobodys home?

Bailey is in the house. He goes out for his morning pee and poo and then he comes in while I am gone.
Kita, Meiko and Puppy are outside NOW in a safe enclosure ( ie a fair size pen) with plenty of shade, water buckets strapped down, toys and treats.
HOWEVER... our closest neighbour is oh.... 1/2 mile away and our road is not frequently traveled.

In the winter this all changes. For obvious reasons, they are inside.
Low and behold... am yet to have any messes But all the same other than the location. Plenty of toys, water and food (as well as treats)

The tv or radio is left on. They have full rip of the house ( all 3 bedrooms, living room, kitchen, dining room and basement) and as I said... I am yet to come home to a mess. No garbage messes, no "accidents" and nothing chewed. ( through both Meiko and Kita being puppies until now)

Again though Kita did destroy my couch when she was about 4 months old while we were sleeping In "MY" eyes, not reason enough to rehome her, obviously she was bored.

I agree though, it is up to each individual rescue and breeder to choose who they believe is best.
I see a big difference with those who either are gone 10+ hours a day or are home all day BUT do nothing with their dogs.
I would prefer to see a dog left unattended but still be a full family member and well cared for and excersised than a dog who has someone home all day but looses interest fast.
I understand that it is hard to distinguish who is who when placing a dog, but why is it so acceptable to discriminate with a one word answer ( yes or no for being alone thoughout the day)
Last i checked prejudism was still wrong, regarless of the form?!?!

[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

I understand that it is hard to distinguish who is who when placing a dog, but why is it so acceptable to discriminate with a one word answer ( yes or no for being alone thoughout the day)
Last i checked prejudism was still wrong, regarless of the form?!?!

So you would show no prejudice against a child care worker that wanted to leave your child unattended, or if she felt that your child didn't need to be served lunch every day?

The point is, rescues and responsible breeders look for a certain quality of home that they feel their dogs will do good in (no different than child care), and from experience they know that some situations can have more pitfalls than others. If I hear, almost daily, that callers want to give up their dogs because they don't have time for them, and then you come along and want to adopt but work 10+ hours a day, how could I possibly just tell myself that maybe this time it will work? Remember, if it doesn't work, I'm liable to get a dog back who now has behavioral issues that I'm going to have to fix - like separation anxiety.

You talk about prejudice, but it's important to remember that rescue and responsible breeders are not there to fulfill your desires for a dog - they are there to find the best home possible for their dog. We go on past experience, and on common sense, and on the failures that are presented to us every day. You are more than welcome to respectfully state your case as to why you are different than the norm, but that's more likely to be accepted if you actually have experience and aren't just a novice with dogs. The best intentions often fail. If that were not true, think how many New Years resolutions would have succeeded.

But it certainly isn't prejudice. Prejudice would be refusing to give you a dog because of your skin color - or something similar that would make no difference at all. Leaving a dog alone for lengthy periods does not equate.

[taurus]

* Dogs left outside are subject to being stolen, more so than if they were inside.

Answer: nobody would ever dare come near my dog!! in fear that they would die

* Dogs left outside are subject to cruel people or inquisitive children.

Answer: i'm subject to cruel people and so are our children every day they go to school, and again nobody would dare come near my dog. teasing the dog at most.

* Dogs left outside are in danger of gates being left open by meter readers, or even being attacked by meter readers that are afraid for their own safety.

Answer: my meter isnt in the back yard

* Dogs left outside are more likely to bark and annoy the neighbors. They can become territorial of their yard, and even bark at airplanes, which when the dog barks, always fly away.

Answer: my dog never barked at airplanes. i want him to be territorial, he's a gaurd dog!

* Dogs left with toys are not necessarily going to play with them because they are not interactive. A ball is not a toy unless there is a person throwing the ball. And yes, some dogs will throw their own ball, but not most. It's kind of like a person with a tennis racket - it gets pretty boring if there is no one to return your serve.

Answer: humans dont play all day either. the dogs job is to gaurd the house. when his shift is over. me and him have all the fun in the world and love eeachother to death.

* Dogs have heightened senses that encourage them to explore things we don't even notice. Is there a bubbling sound underground? A bored dog will investigate that and unearth sprinkler pipes. A bored dog will find an interesting spot in the fence and dig under and out. A bored dog will jump up to see what that sound is on the other side of the fence, and possibly jump over to it's peril.

Answer: i never had a dog that try'ed to escape. dont know what thats like. my dog was very very obedient. atleast he has time to play during his job.

* A tired dog IS less likely to do all of these things, but how long can tired last when the dog is left alone for 10 hours a day?

Answer: i dont know were 10 hours came from but 6-8 hours is the most

Damage can be done by a bored dog inside too, but at least the dog is safe from other people, other animals, and possible escape.

Answer: again no animal in the city of seattle would try to attack a very big german shephard or any good size gaurd dog. i sure dont live around mountain lions

I've heard the suggestion that dogs mental capacity is equal with a 2-4 year old child. Would any of us approve of leaving a 2-4 year old child in a fenced yard without attention for 10 hours a day?

Answer: again i dont know were 10 is coming from but my dog is not a human. my dog is not my child. he is my best freind and he is my pet. he was bought for a reason. to gaurd, and in return gets all the loving he could ever want.

[PsiElement]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

So you would show no prejudice against a child care worker that wanted to leave your child unattended, or if she felt that your child didn't need to be served lunch every day?

The point is, rescues and responsible breeders look for a certain quality of home that they feel their dogs will do good in (no different than child care), and from experience they know that some situations can have more pitfalls than others. If I hear, almost daily, that callers want to give up their dogs because they don't have time for them, and then you come along and want to adopt but work 10+ hours a day, how could I possibly just tell myself that maybe this time it will work? Remember, if it doesn't work, I'm liable to get a dog back who now has behavioral issues that I'm going to have to fix - like separation anxiety.

You talk about prejudice, but it's important to remember that rescue and responsible breeders are not there to fulfill your desires for a dog - they are there to find the best home possible for their dog. We go on past experience, and on common sense, and on the failures that are presented to us every day. You are more than welcome to respectfully state your case as to why you are different than the norm, but that's more likely to be accepted if you actually have experience and aren't just a novice with dogs. The best intentions often fail. If that were not true, think how many New Years resolutions would have succeeded.

But it certainly isn't prejudice. Prejudice would be refusing to give you a dog because of your skin color - or something similar that would make no difference at all. Leaving a dog alone for lengthy periods does not equate.

Dogs are *like* children in the sense that they can't be left alone for days at a time without *ANY* supervision. But dogs are not children. They are dogs and to keep comparing to child-care is ridiculous. You wouldn't put your child in a crate to potty train them now would you? No? Then why would you put your dog in a crate!?

It is entirely up to the breeders to decide how strict they are going to be. But it's like I read elsewhere in this thread, no *wonder* backyard breeders and pet stores stay in business and for breeders that only consider the time as the most important factor and not quality of life for the dog, yes, it's partially your fault that it's true. People shouldn't have to move and quit their jobs to own a dog, especially people who prove they are otherwise qualified. There are other solutions besides flat "no's", test-runs, etc that can satisfy both parties here.

Dogs do not need attention ALL THE TIME if properly trained. I work at a dog daycare, and guess what? We don't let the dogs out to all play with each other and us for all day. There are quite a few hours that they lay in their cage and must entertain themselves. It's not cruel or damaging to the animal, nor is it on par with a regular children's daycare locking children up all day.

The point is, Dog Advocate, you make a ton of really generalized statements that only defend breeders really looking at the environment their dog is going to, but don't really defend denying someone because of how many hours a day the person may potentially be gone. You say people fail-- yes, they do. I'm sure when it comes to dogs, you've failed on a certain thing at least once or twice. I'm sure you'll do it again. Does that mean you're not fit to own a dog? Of course not, it happens. If you're *that* paranoid that people won't be good owners in general and that almost all good intentions don't work, I don't think you should be a breeder who sells. And I don't think a good breeder is one who will make a judgment on a person's at-glance "yes no" situation without further discussing the options and turn someone down on time-home, alone.

[RonE]

We are a society that insists, more and more, on instant gratification.

I used to offer photo processing in a store I owned. We reached a point where next day wasn't good enough. People wanted same day. Soon after, it had to be one-hour. When people began insisting on while-you-wait processing for the film that's been in the camera for 18 months, I got out of that business. (People don't have the patience to wait for film at all any more.)

People buy dogs impulsively and dispose of them just as quickly. I don't think that fact obligates breeders, shelters or rescues to make it easier and faster to get a dog. I could make some silly analogy about buying a gun from a dealer, going through a background check and a mandatory waiting period vs buying one from a guy on the street but that would make as much sense as comparing dogs and human children.

I've had both and dogs are MUCH more trainable.

[sweetardnas1885]

I just want to start off by saying that I am not putting in my 2-cents, but that I can undwerstand where both parties are coming from as I have asked these questions myself. With that out of the way...

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Plus, puppies need to eat frequently or they can get hypoglycemic or dehydrated. And, if you leave them alone with their food, they make a huge mess, or eat too much and vomit.

This is a common misconception. We hear this all the time from clients who have bought new puppies and do their research on-line, maybe reading only one site and not cross-referencing...which, lets face it, when you are researching on the internet is key.

If I'm not mistaken (whick I will confirm with my vets today at work) you need only worry about hypoglycemia in small breed puppies, not all puppies. I must admit, I do not know if Orchid is a small breed, so you probably had reason to worry. I will definately double check with my vets though. I remember learning that in my animal breeds and husbandry class, I am almost positive.

BTW, I am not trying to undermind you in any way, I just do not want us to misinform others.

Originally Posted by taurus

Answer: again no animal in the city of seattle would try to attack a very big german shephard or any good size gaurd dog. i sure dont live around mountain lions

I thought this was funny. Once at a campground, my 12 pound dachshund tried to attack a snarling German Shepherd. Hackles up, teeth bared, the whole nine yards. The Shepherd started growling, Sweet Pea attacked, or attempted to do so. Thank God for short leashes!

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by taurus

* Dogs left outside are subject to being stolen, more so than if they were inside.

Answer: nobody would ever dare come near my dog!! in fear that they would die

* Dogs left outside are subject to cruel people or inquisitive children.

Answer: i'm subject to cruel people and so are our children every day they go to school, and again nobody would dare come near my dog. teasing the dog at most.

* Dogs left outside are in danger of gates being left open by meter readers, or even being attacked by meter readers that are afraid for their own safety.

Answer: my meter isnt in the back yard

* Dogs left outside are more likely to bark and annoy the neighbors. They can become territorial of their yard, and even bark at airplanes, which when the dog barks, always fly away.

Answer: my dog never barked at airplanes. i want him to be territorial, he's a gaurd dog!

* Dogs left with toys are not necessarily going to play with them because they are not interactive. A ball is not a toy unless there is a person throwing the ball. And yes, some dogs will throw their own ball, but not most. It's kind of like a person with a tennis racket - it gets pretty boring if there is no one to return your serve.

Answer: humans dont play all day either. the dogs job is to gaurd the house. when his shift is over. me and him have all the fun in the world and love eeachother to death.

* Dogs have heightened senses that encourage them to explore things we don't even notice. Is there a bubbling sound underground? A bored dog will investigate that and unearth sprinkler pipes. A bored dog will find an interesting spot in the fence and dig under and out. A bored dog will jump up to see what that sound is on the other side of the fence, and possibly jump over to it's peril.

Answer: i never had a dog that try'ed to escape. dont know what thats like. my dog was very very obedient. atleast he has time to play during his job.

* A tired dog IS less likely to do all of these things, but how long can tired last when the dog is left alone for 10 hours a day?

Answer: i dont know were 10 hours came from but 6-8 hours is the most

Damage can be done by a bored dog inside too, but at least the dog is safe from other people, other animals, and possible escape.

Answer: again no animal in the city of seattle would try to attack a very big german shephard or any good size gaurd dog. i sure dont live around mountain lions

I've heard the suggestion that dogs mental capacity is equal with a 2-4 year old child. Would any of us approve of leaving a 2-4 year old child in a fenced yard without attention for 10 hours a day?

Answer: again i dont know were 10 is coming from but my dog is not a human. my dog is not my child. he is my best freind and he is my pet. he was bought for a reason. to gaurd, and in return gets all the loving he could ever want.

A female Coyote killed an adult Rottie this week in Mass, it was all over the news and it happened near the city limits. Anything can happen, I think that was the last thig this owner thought a huge dog against a Coyote! I have large breeds also and I would put my money on a wild animal. Dogs that are tied outside are more likley to bite, it is a proven fact!

[skunkstripe]

I did not see where anyone was advocatng "tying the dog up". It was a matter of allowing the dog to be outside. Frankly, if it is a nice day, my dog Zircon is happiest taking a snooze in the sun out on the grass, even if the rest of his "pack" is inside.

[Snowshoe]

I don't think I misinformed anyone. Any puppy can get hypoglycemia, although it is more common in toys. Large breed puppies need frequent feedings too, and that is no excuse to NOT feed them multiple times a day.

I'm sorry if you don't agree. That's fine. I usually prefer to be safer then sorry.

As for Orchid, she's not a small breed. She's dead in the middle. My mentor was very specific with me about feeding schedules. As she's been showing and breeding for over 30 years, I listened.

However, that's not what this thread is about. RonE is right. Rescues and breeders don't HAVE to give you a puppy if they don't like you. My mentor jokingly said the same thing when I was first talking to her about puppies.

Also, I think we need to seperate getting puppies from an older dog. Older dogs need less care then puppies.

This won't be taken well, but most people would do better adopting an older dog, rather then getting a puppy. Puppies are so hard to take care of. They are like babies for the first few months.

Obviously, while they are not human children, they still need to be cared for just as well.

BTW- doggy daycare is a great idea. My next pup will be going there.

[PsiElement]

I agree with you snowshoe, in that to an extent, yes a dog is like a baby, especially when a puppy. I don't advocate people ignoring or not caring for their dogs. But I think some people take it to an extreme and go overboard on their zealousness for thinking that whenever you're not at work you should be giving 100 percent of your attention to your dog 100 percent of the time. When a puppy and not in a den, yes I do agree.. but it won't kill a puppy to be alone for a bit.

I'm just saying I don't agree with breeders who automatically reject someone because they have a weird schedule. If breeders are going to do that, fine, that's their right. But it doesn't make it the best choice or the most sensible. Like I said in my personal example, yes I can be gone for 10 hours a day. But my boyfriend leaves three hours after me and I'm home three hours before him for a half-hour before going to work again.. so the pup wouldn't be alone for more than 5 hours max. That. and I can put my dog (and will likely put him/her in) doggy daycare. But if a breeder decided to just see my work/school schedule and turn me down on that, they'd be making a snap judgement off of a situation that's actually deceiving.

I think on the surface a lot of people aren't qualified for having dogs.. if you look further though they actually do. It's the danger of going off of "Yes or no" and making that decision 100 percent final. But I think Breeders should dig deeper to see the level of dedication a potential owner has, not just that they work X number of hours. If someone works a lot but owns a few other happy, well-adjusted pets that's a pretty good indication that they may have what it takes, or if they've planned out doggy daycare or someone to check up once in a while if they're gone for 8-10 hours.

I think the main argument is that just because you work a lot doesn't mean you're going to neglect your pups, not take care of them, not train them, or deprive them. For anyone to suggest that you will just because of the hours you work is ignorant and petty. Nobody wants a bad environment for a dog. What people want is for breeders to look a little further than skin-deep if they're really that keen on being responsible and placing a puppy with a good family and not make a snap judgement or decision.

[Ceph]

Originally Posted by PsiElement

I think on the surface a lot of people aren't qualified for having dogs.. if you look further though they actually do. It's the danger of going off of "Yes or no" and making that decision 100 percent final. But I think Breeders should dig deeper to see the level of dedication a potential owner has, not just that they work X number of hours. If someone works a lot but owns a few other happy, well-adjusted pets that's a pretty good indication that they may have what it takes, or if they've planned out doggy daycare or someone to check up once in a while if they're gone for 8-10 hours.

I think the main argument is that just because you work a lot doesn't mean you're going to neglect your pups, not take care of them, not train them, or deprive them. For anyone to suggest that you will just because of the hours you work is ignorant and petty. Nobody wants a bad environment for a dog. What people want is for breeders to look a little further than skin-deep if they're really that keen on being responsible and placing a puppy with a good family and not make a snap judgement or decision.

Thanks Psi - that looking on the surface is what I meant when I said superficial - I probably should have said what is on the top layer. I agree with what you had to say...and I really think that makes sense.

~Cate

[Snowshoe]

Actually, I really agree with your post.

It's MUCH easier for two people to care for a dog then one. Based on my schedule alone, I would not have qualified for Orchid.

However, my BF's job is flexible (one of the perks of being a computer nerd) and between the both of us we did really well with making sure that the puppy wasn't home alone for more then a few hours at a time.

And I agree that breeders should carefully screen applicants. I know that my mentor now asked me about a million questions before she let me have Orchid.

People need to work, there is no doubt about that. Most breeders realize that and can be somewhat flexible if they like the person enough.

IMHO, if a person does alot of research and is careful and is able to answer the questions of the breeder adequetely, it is far more likely that the breeder will want to work with them.

It is also unlikely that a person who does alot of research will bite of more then they can chew, so to speak. If you want an Australian Shepherd and you do your research, you'll quickly realize that they need intensive mental and physical stimulation per day, for example.

Most people would have enough common sense to realize that they couldn't handle that. If they don't, it's a breeder's job to assess the situation.

Nine to Five Dog
by Ann Smalley


For most of us, it's difficult to do two things at once-pat one's head and rub one's stomach, for example, or stand on one's head and whistle "Dixie". But while, with a little concentration and practice, these tricks can be mastered, no one has yet figured out how to be in two places at one time. In the 1990s, this is what dog owners who work full time would probably like to be able to do more than anything else. As more people work full time, more pet dogs are also becoming nine-to-fivers-dogs that are left alone from 9:00 (or earlier) in the morning to 5:00 (or later) in the evening every weekday and whose time with their owners is limited to weekday evenings and weekends. Owners who love their dogs and want the best for them find themselves struggling to fit it all in: feeding, grooming, exercising, and just spending time together, strengthening the bonds of companionship that are so rewarding and make owning a dog such a joyous experience. Sometimes it seems as if it would be impossible to do everything recommended by manuals, magazine article, animal behaviorists, and dog trainers to produce a happy, well-adjusted pet even if one devoted twenty-four hours a day to it.

Where once a household may have had someone at home all day, now it's likely that the house will be empty, except for the dog, from early morning to evening. Although many dogs, fortunately, can adjust to a life alone during the day, others may be lonely, bored, or frustrated. They may turn, as a result, to destructive or undesirable behavior: digging craters in the garden; barking incessantly; or chewing up the new oriental rug. The dog's behavior, in such cases, creates an unhappy owner who dreads unlocking the door each evening and viewing the latest disaster but who isn't home enough to cope with the problem. Frustrated by an apparently unsolvable dilemma, the owner may decide he cannot keep the dog and give it up to a shelter.

Aside for problems such as barking, digging, and chewing, other problems may arise for the nine-to-five dog. The dog may have housebreaking problems or be so full of energy by the time its owner get home that it's rambunctious and uncontrollable. It's not surprising that such problems cause dog/owner relationships to sour.

Does this mean a person who works full time should not own a dog? Not all all. It is possible to have a mutually satisfying, rewarding relationship with a nine-to-five dog. One way is to recognize how the dog is going to behave and then arrange things so that its behavior will not upset you.

Choosing the right dog can start you off with an important advantage. Since your time with your dog will be limited, don't choose a dog that will force you to spend that time doing things you'd rather not. If you dislike grooming, for example, choose a pet with a short coat that requires a minimum of care. If you dislike vacuuming up after dogs that are heavy shedders, choose a dog that will have minimum shedding.

Dogs should not be nine-to-fivers until they are a least six months old. Puppies less than six months of age need to be fed four times a day and have not yet developed the muscle strength for urinary control. They should not be left alone for extended periods. If you are already working full time when you decide to get a dog, take advantage of the opportunity to adopt an older dog from a shelter.

Some dogs need more exercise than others, so only think about a high-energy breed if you can meet its needs. The point is to choose a dog that has a good chance of fitting in with your lifestyle from the start.

Training a nine-to-five dog is a must. Dogs are happier and more relaxed when their behavior is directed rather than left up to them. They can be very anxious if they feel that they must make all the decisions. Training can strengthen the pet/owner bond and help each understand the other better. Basic training can also improve the quality of your time together. You will not be frustrated-and perhaps angered-by your dog running away, not coming when called, or pulling your arm out of its socket when walked on a leash. Although your time together may be limited, investing fifteen or twenty minutes, four or five day a week, will help you get the most out of every minute you do spend together. You may be encouraged to take your dog out for a long, leisurely walk in the park or a run by the river if you know it will be a pleasant experience.

One crucial element in a nine-to-five dog/owner relationship is how the dog behaves when it is alone and how the owner reacts to this behavior. "Eighty percent of the people who turn dogs in at shelters are doing it because they didn't think things through when they got the dog," says Phyllis Wright, HSUS vice president for companion animals. "You cannot expect a dog to be able to do things you cannot do." For example, it's unfair to expect every dog to be able to control its habits of elimination all day. If you have a dog that cannot be confined alone all day, you need to arrange things so that it's OK for the dog to do what it has to do.



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[taurus]

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Dogs should not be nine-to-fivers until they are a least six months old. Puppies less than six months of age need to be fed four times a day and have not yet developed the muscle strength for urinary control. They should not be left alone for extended periods. If you are already working full time when you decide to get a dog, take advantage of the opportunity to adopt an older dog from a shelter.

best advice so far imo. i dont think there's much to say after that

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

It's MUCH easier for two people to care for a dog then one.


And I agree that breeders should carefully screen applicants. I know that my mentor now asked me about a million questions before she let me have Orchid.

People need to work, there is no doubt about that. Most breeders realize that and can be somewhat flexible if they like the person enough.

IMHO, if a person does alot of research and is careful and is able to answer the questions of the breeder adequetely, it is far more likely that the breeder will want to work with them.

It is also unlikely that a person who does alot of research will bite of more then they can chew, so to speak. If you want an Australian Shepherd and you do your research, you'll quickly realize that they need intensive mental and physical stimulation per day, for example.

Most people would have enough common sense to realize that they couldn't handle that. If they don't, it's a breeder's job to assess the situation.

Im suprised , but I agree with YOUR post here.

Honestly if a breeder didnt ask enough questions I would run the other way. I have no problem "convincing" a breeder that I am a good home for their pup. BUT I just think breeders should take the time to asses each and every application to the fullest, honestly some of those app's I looked at I didnt even bother filling out. The questions were way to vague and there appeared to be no room for explanation.
Thats also another reason I emailed before the application. The one breeder I "REALLY" wanted a pup from, was hesitant and really hard on me, to get to know the WHOLE story.
Im happy to say that this breeder is the one that my 2 years in the future pup will be coming from.
At this time I will not have 4 dogs plus a pup... I cant do it. Its my personal boundary. Where as some can have many more and do it wonderfully, my personal limit is clearly 4 ( although I wish it could be 40 but that is terribly unrealistic)

I have to also agree 100% with the member who pointed out that basically no matter how much we treat our dogs ( or puppies) like human children they just are not.
Sure puppies can be compared to an infant, but no matter how much they may have in common, reality has to set in at some point and one has to understand it is a dog. ( Dont get me wrong, I didnt say "just a dog" that statement makes my skin crawl)


And now... slightly off topic for the breeders here.
It is a 2 way street, why do some breeders not take the time to answer our questions???? In a way we are hiring you if you are happy with us!

And now i have to go get a new quote that I really wanted to ask about.

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

- they are there to find the best home possible for their dog.

But it certainly isn't prejudice. Prejudice would be refusing to give you a dog because of your skin color - or something similar that would make no difference at all. Leaving a dog alone for lengthy periods does not equate.

As for the first part that I cut out of that post... cant breeding take the form of "supply vs demand"??? Even with ethical breeders?
I know an ethical breeder is breeding to better the breed but I dont see how that justifies multiple litters in a bitches life time, sure different studs but face it even some ethical breeders are over producing.

and for the second part.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prejudice

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Prejudism does not only exist in instances of skin color.
It is pre judging someone for what ever reason without facts on an individual basis.

[RonE]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

Prejudism does not only exist in instances of skin color.
It is pre judging someone for what ever reason without facts on an individual basis.

Wimble Woof, I happen to agree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm not making fun of you or trying to pick a fight, but I'm pretty sure prejudism isn't a word.

My wife makes up words and I know she just loves it when I point it out to her.

[sweetardnas1885]

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

I don't think I misinformed anyone. Any puppy can get hypoglycemia, although it is more common in toys. Large breed puppies need frequent feedings too, and that is no excuse to NOT feed them multiple times a day.

I'm sorry if you don't agree. That's fine. I usually prefer to be safer then sorry.

As for Orchid, she's not a small breed. She's dead in the middle. My mentor was very specific with me about feeding schedules. As she's been showing and breeding for over 30 years, I listened.

However, that's not what this thread is about. RonE is right. Rescues and breeders don't HAVE to give you a puppy if they don't like you. My mentor jokingly said the same thing when I was first talking to her about puppies.

Also, I think we need to seperate getting puppies from an older dog. Older dogs need less care then puppies.

This won't be taken well, but most people would do better adopting an older dog, rather then getting a puppy. Puppies are so hard to take care of. They are like babies for the first few months.

Obviously, while they are not human children, they still need to be cared for just as well.

BTW- doggy daycare is a great idea. My next pup will be going there.

Its not that I don't agree, it is just more common for a small breed pup to develop hypoglycemia. I think that was my point, more so. I didn't mean per se that you were misinforming people, even though that is, in a way, what I said. I said the wrong thing. I apologize. Most puppies do fine with being fed 3 to 4 times a day, assuming that the puppy is over 8 weeks old. But you are correct, all puppies can get hypoglycemia. And you are correct, this thread is not about feedings and hypoglycemia. Sorry to misdirect the conversation...

[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by taurus

* Dogs left outside are subject to being stolen, more so than if they were inside.

Answer: nobody would ever dare come near my dog!! in fear that they would die

* Dogs left outside are subject to cruel people or inquisitive children.

Answer: i'm subject to cruel people and so are our children every day they go to school, and again nobody would dare come near my dog. teasing the dog at most.

* Dogs left outside are in danger of gates being left open by meter readers, or even being attacked by meter readers that are afraid for their own safety.

Answer: my meter isnt in the back yard

* Dogs left outside are more likely to bark and annoy the neighbors. They can become territorial of their yard, and even bark at airplanes, which when the dog barks, always fly away.

Answer: my dog never barked at airplanes. i want him to be territorial, he's a gaurd dog!

* Dogs left with toys are not necessarily going to play with them because they are not interactive. A ball is not a toy unless there is a person throwing the ball. And yes, some dogs will throw their own ball, but not most. It's kind of like a person with a tennis racket - it gets pretty boring if there is no one to return your serve.

Answer: humans dont play all day either. the dogs job is to gaurd the house. when his shift is over. me and him have all the fun in the world and love eeachother to death.

* Dogs have heightened senses that encourage them to explore things we don't even notice. Is there a bubbling sound underground? A bored dog will investigate that and unearth sprinkler pipes. A bored dog will find an interesting spot in the fence and dig under and out. A bored dog will jump up to see what that sound is on the other side of the fence, and possibly jump over to it's peril.

Answer: i never had a dog that try'ed to escape. dont know what thats like. my dog was very very obedient. atleast he has time to play during his job.

* A tired dog IS less likely to do all of these things, but how long can tired last when the dog is left alone for 10 hours a day?

Answer: i dont know were 10 hours came from but 6-8 hours is the most

Damage can be done by a bored dog inside too, but at least the dog is safe from other people, other animals, and possible escape.

Answer: again no animal in the city of seattle would try to attack a very big german shephard or any good size gaurd dog. i sure dont live around mountain lions

I've heard the suggestion that dogs mental capacity is equal with a 2-4 year old child. Would any of us approve of leaving a 2-4 year old child in a fenced yard without attention for 10 hours a day?

Answer: again i dont know were 10 is coming from but my dog is not a human. my dog is not my child. he is my best freind and he is my pet. he was bought for a reason. to gaurd, and in return gets all the loving he could ever want.

The 10 hours comes from the original poster who asked about a breeder denying an application from someone that worked 10 hours a day. My points were meant to be general, not specific. No set of general rules fits anyone perfectly. But even the most ferocious dogs have been stolen. It's not that hard to knock out a dog without risking your own safety. Someone who was determined to do so could do it easily. I do wonder though - what do you have in your back yard that is so worth stealing that you need a guard dog (rhetorical question). Most people worry more about the things that are inside their house - you know, where the silver is kept. And of course a dog in the back yard can do nothing if someone comes in the front door and steals that silver.

Also, you say no animal would attack a good size guard dog -- have you considered wandering pit bulls? A dog aggressive dog will attack anything. It may or may not win, but there is still an attack.

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by RonE

I'm not making fun of you or trying to pick a fight, but I'm pretty sure prejudism isn't a word.

My wife makes up words and I know she just loves it when I point it out to her.

LOL, thems fighting words indeed
"prejudism" is not a word, but I couldnt think of another way to fit in the sentance... my brain thinks faster than I can type