[dansamy]

Guess some of us shouldn't have had kids, either?

Anyway, like kids, I think the "parenting" is important here. People who work hard to make their situations "work" for them and their kids or pets do just fine.

[squirt1968]

Well then how about raising children and working? I think even 1st time dog owners can raise a pup and work. I did and many others and our dogs are as well behaved and centered as most. I think all things can be taken to extremes. I am a all things in moderation type person.

[poodleholic]

Well then how about raising children and working? I think even 1st time dog owners can raise a pup and work. I did and many others and our dogs are as well behaved and centered as most.

Children are placed in daycare or have someone in the home to provide constant supervision and able to respond to the child's immediate needs. Just as I wouldn't leave a child home alone for 8, 9, or 10 hours, I would not leave a young puppy alone, either.

You can indeed raise a puppy if your gone 10 hours a day. Its not that hard, sure you have to take extra precautions with puppy proofing your house, maybe even block off a section that is big enough to get around yet not too big to get into things.

Sure you can, however (with regard to a very young puppy), unless you have someone come in for potty breaks and to provide human interaction at least once during the 10-hour period, this practice is shamefully neglectful, at the very least.

Most of us have to work, and just because some are gone 10 hrs. a day does not mean they shouldn't have a dog. It does mean that provisions need to be made for a young puppy, because leaving it alone for that long is simply irresponsible.

I foster rescues, providing behavioral modification and training as necessary. When I screen applicants who want to adopt, being gone for 10 hrs. a day would not automatically disqualify the person (depending on the dog to be adopted, and whether or not the potential owner had experience with dogs). I do thorough screenings, and require references from vets, groomers, and neighbors/friends, in addition to a pre-adoption home check, and several unannounced home checks/visits for six months after the adoption. I am sorry to have to say that I've removed more dogs than I care to think about (most because the dog was left outside, unsupervised, for several hours).

A puppy's needs differ from those of an adult dog, and just because a person deems it ok to leave the puppy alone for 10 + hrs. a day doesn't make it right.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by borzoimom

man - I could never have a dog door here too much wildlife in the yard or maybe coming in and I do not have my dogs wear collars in the house so even the tag door is out of the question. I would never leave my dogs loose in a yard if I were not home...

I dont feel comfortable having my dogs out when I am not home.... but it is something she feels strongly about... but I am with you, to much wildlife.... no collars. I like them safely in the house when I am not here.
s

Originally Posted by dansamy

Guess some of us shouldn't have had kids, either?

Anyway, like kids, I think the "parenting" is important here. People who work hard to make their situations "work" for them and their kids or pets do just fine.

actually I have met very few people who I think Should have children. What I can say about children is that most of the children that I like, (and I am really NOT a kid person) but most of the children that I do like are from families where someone is home when they are home. I don't know that I think you can work that many hours a day and raise children successfully.....
but that is beside the point from a person who doesn't really like kids.... is not to fond of many parents.... and really thinks that most baby animals including lizards are cuter than human babies or children.
s

[Chloef_2799]

I know a few people who are like that infact my boyfriends dad is a farrier (horseshoe guy in case anyone is un-sure haha!) and he has two dogs. One of them goes to work with him and the other stays home all day. Surprisingly he has a border collie and a border terrier, the terrier goes and the collie stays and that is what they prefer. Aparently the collie hates care ride (gets car sick). And his dad is gone from anywhere between 8 hours to sometimes 12 and 13 hours a day and his dogs are fine.
Before I got Chloe I was looking for a cavalier king charles or a pappillon and I applyed to a lady who breeds cavaliers and she turned me down because of my boyfriends hours and mine combined. She said I couldn't guarentee that the dog wouldn't be left alone for more than six hours. I work 6 to 7 hours four or five (sometimes six) days a week and my boyfriend is a police officer so he is gone 10, 11 or 12 hours a day and he works different shifts every week. Sometimes he works five days, the next week he is off, then he works 8 days then he is off one day and back on another 4 days (I know....wierd hours). I was a bit upset but I said oh well and went looking else where.
I don't get it either. I think if you care for your dogs and you give them enough exercise and one on one time then why should it matter if they will be alone for 10 hours a day? or even 13? When my dad used to work midnights (I was like 10 or 11) I would see him for all of two hours and the rest of the day it would be me my siblings and our dogs because my mom was busy cleaning or cooking and she worked full time herself so she was only home after 5 pm.....and we turned out just fine as did our dogs.

[DogAdvocat]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

I started somewhere though.
We all did.

Your post didnt seem harsh, I just dont see where we get off saying NO a dog isnt for you! and so on.
Im not super dog owner, and I am not the best owner out there either, but I managed to raise 2 pups while working full time. It can be done.
Yes people do need to hear the worst case scinarios on working and having a puppy, I agree. But it can be, and definately has been, done.

*** and just a side note, I was put on 3 waiting lists, I weeded through the breeders shortly there after and picked the one I was most satisfied with, If all goes well I will have my pup in 2 years***

Whether one is a responsible breeder, or a responsible rescue, it's necessary to trouble-shoot and figure the odds of failure in any given home. YOU may have made it work, but that doesn't mean that most people will make it work. How many dogs do you think are in shelters because their owners "didn't have time for them"? I hear that all the time, and it's usually because a lonely dog got too little attention, and got creatively destructive. Dogs are dying for this reason every day, and the cure for it, if there were enough available homes, is simply more attention.

There are 24 hours in a day, if work takes up 10 of those hours, and travel takes another hour or two, that's half a day. Then we subtract 8 hours for sleep. That leaves 4 hours a day. In that 4 hours, we need to squeeze shopping, cleaning house, laundry, cooking/eating, talking on the phone with friends, checking Dog Forums for interesting posts, watching tv, reading the newspaper and/or snail mail, showering/shaving, etc. So out of all that, how much time do you really think is left for a dog?

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by DogAdvocat

How many dogs do you think are in shelters because their owners "didn't have time for them"? I hear that all the time, and it's usually because a lonely dog got too little attention, and got creatively destructive. Dogs are dying for this reason every day, and the cure for it, if there were enough available homes, is simply more attention.

There are 24 hours in a day, if work takes up 10 of those hours, and travel takes another hour or two, that's half a day. Then we subtract 8 hours for sleep. That leaves 4 hours a day. In that 4 hours, we need to squeeze shopping, cleaning house, laundry, cooking/eating, talking on the phone with friends, checking Dog Forums for interesting posts, watching tv, reading the newspaper and/or snail mail, showering/shaving, etc. So out of all that, how much time do you really think is left for a dog?

I dont know then, I guess for some reason I have been chosen to have more hours in a day.
I know why dogs end up in rescue, I hear it too, BELIEVE me. However much people think I shouldnt be fostering or having dogs while gone a total of 10 hours per day, I do and it works for me.
But I think the problem with that issue is...
In a time where convienience and desires over run the majority of people, there are far too many that dont take things serious enough.
For example, look at divorce rates as well. No one is willing to PUT the TIME and EFFORT into things anymore.
Our society has adopted the "its easier to run then to work it out" attitude and the " holyier than thou" attitude as well.

Dont get me wrong, I am a firm believer too that dogs need proper attention, but in all reality, "you can be gone 10 hours a day, and still raise a dog IF you are willing to work at it."
Its very judgemental to say that because (lets just say) 90% of owners end up with bad behaviours from their dogs because of how "they" went about things... the remaining 10% should not be able to make it work.

[Dorygirl]

Interesting discussion.

On one hand, breeders want their pups and families to have a successful relationship. Common sense tells us that the more time they spend together, the better the chances of a close bond developing. And fewer behavior problems.
But someone rescuing a pup from a shelter or pound - well, a safe, comfortable, loving home is better than being euthanized. Even if the owner is absent for most of the work week. Heck, I know people who see their own children for only about an hour a day. If it's acceptable for a child, it's ok for a dog.
Between doggie day care and people helping during the day and the owner maybe adjusting the schedule...it can be done. A dog spending hours alone isn't the worst thing in the world.

It always comes down to one thing. Is the potential owner aware of how much responsibility and sacrifice a dog requires? If so, then odds are it will be a successful experience.

[taurus]

it really depends on the setup the dog is in period. before we had a backyard with a fence we had to have someone at the house almost all the time. between my brother my cousin my mom and dad. the dog was never alone for more than 2 hours

now when we had a back yard with a huge fence, once the dog got older he could stay outside during times were werent home. lots of times 8 hours a day. unless it was raining were we had a inside back porch were he slept.

when he was a puppy and we had to leave. we trained him to were he would know to poop and pee on the newspaper. by having the dog follow us outside to the back yard and dumping the poop to the far left corner. he soon realized thats were he goes to poop.

it depends on the setup the dog is in and maybe the type of dog. as long as the dog is well takin care of. nobody is wrong for leaving to work and back and nobody is wrong for being with the dog 24/7.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by taurus

it really depends on the setup the dog is in period. before we had a backyard with a fence we had to have someone at the house almost all the time. between my brother my cousin my mom and dad. the dog was never alone for more than 2 hours

now when we had a back yard with a huge fence, once the dog got older he could stay outside during times were werent home. lots of times 8 hours a day. unless it was raining were we had a inside back porch were he slept.

see here is the thing..... I would never have given you a puppy knowing that the dog was going to be outside all day while you weren't home.... thats trouble looking for a place..... and this is why responsible breeders are so careful..... and want someone home all day.... to prevent things like this. I have a fully fenced yard and never leave the dogs out all day.... I think DogAdvocat said it best.... as a breeder I have no responsibility to anyone but that puppy and I am going to find the home that I think will make that puppy happy and healthy and give the puppy the time it deserves.... normally I have more applications than I have puppies.... so someone gave a breakdown of the time in a day.... and if I have to think about the chance of success and making the puppy happy then I think about that breakdown of time in a day. Weekends are great but while we are off having friends, talking on the phone, going to work having carreers that puppy has only YOU...... and to have that puppy sit home all day waiting for YOU doesn't seem quite fair.... when you get home and in the four hours you have left you have a bazillion other things to do.... now you (generic you) might find time to do some training and spend some time... but lets really think about all the other things you have to do......

So if I have 20 applications for 8 puppies ...... guess who will get the puppy..... if all things are equal and usually they are because I screen out folks who would really not be good .... they don't even get an application to fill out. So at two weeks old I take my file of puppy applications and I start weighing the pros and cons of each family..... or each person.... and there are 3 things that kill it for me..... 1. MUST have a fenced yard,
2. must generally own their own home 3. Must have the dog be in the house and part of the family.
Now those may sound unreasonable but I would rather hold onto a puppy for an extra month or couple months or whatever to make sure that at a minimum those three conditions are met..... I am NOT in the business of selling puppies.... I am already deeply in the red with this flat coat litter. I find it interesting the idea and insinuations that somehow responsible breeders compete with each other for business ..... just recently I was talking to a guys wife and I told her that I matched puppies to people and nobody picks their own puppy (some very knowledgeable flat coat folks may pick but I have veto rights always) ..... and he says to me "well then I guess we don't do business unless I pick" now this is not a car dealership.... there is no squabbling or arguing or pressuring me to do something I don't want to do.... "I said he might want to call __________ another breeder who had pups on the ground but that as far as I knew nobody lets anyone pick in this breed" I got an email from them the next day asking if we could compromise..... I said no ............

My point is that it doesn't matter if people think we are unreasonable.... its funny that the same things that people complain about with puppy mills and their not screening and not having standards and if you go you can plunk down your money and picks yer pet..... are the same things that people complain about with responsible breeders......

There are plenty of breeders that I wouldn't qualify for a puppy from. There were a few breeders that wouldn't let me use their stud dog with Shalva.... I don't do enough field work for them. I do work in the field but these were heavy duty field people.... and I don't do enough in the field. That is the way it goes.... if that is something that they feel is important then I can't argue with that ...... I know that my own breeder now requires a dog door that I mentioned above.... do I think its ridiculous.... YES do I have good reasons for not having a dog door YES ..... but thats the way it goes.

[RonE]

I seems to me that a breeder should be able to set any requirements she deems appropriate. Nobody is forced to buy from a particular breeder and no breeder should be required to sell to a particular individual. Shelters and rescue gorups should be able to set any rules they want as well, though I understand there are limitations where public funding is involved.

This is a much different issue than saying that nobody should have a dog if they're not home all day, so let's not get too defensive about this issue.

[borzoimom]

Originally Posted by RonE

I seems to me that a breeder should be able to set any requirements she deems appropriate. Nobody is forced to buy from a particular breeder and no breeder should be required to sell to a particular individual. Shelters and rescue gorups should be able to set any rules they want as well, though I understand there are limitations where public funding is involved.

This is a much different issue than saying that nobody should have a dog if they're not home all day, so let's not get too defensive about this issue.

I agree. My step daughter has been telling us for weeks she wanted to get a dog. Works long hours even on weekends as a real estate agent, and loves to do things on her free time - like shop ( lol) go do dinner etc.
Well she finally understood this, and got a cat instead..

[peace36]

Wimble Woof. Sorry if I missed it but where are your 4 dogs all day while nobodys home?

I dont think every one should have a dog. If you cant come home for lunch or hire someone during the day or afford doggie daycare then you should not have a dog. They are not supposed to be payed attention to at our convience only. They do not like to be alone or not be able to exercise the majority of thier life.

Not everyones life style is condusive (sp?) to owning a dog.

[Jen D]

Doing rescue I wouldn't let a dog go to a home if the dog was to be alone for ten hour or more let alone a pup! I would keep the dog myself first. I don't see anything wrong being gone that long if someone comes in during the day to walk and give attention to the dog or pup. I am not a breeder but I do know that I think that if a good breeder they wouldn't let a new pup go to a home that they were going to be gone for ten hours.

[skunkstripe]

Originally Posted by Dorygirl

On one hand, breeders want their pups and families to have a successful relationship. Common sense tells us that the more time they spend together, the better the chances of a close bond developing. And fewer behavior problems.
But someone rescuing a pup from a shelter or pound - well, a safe, comfortable, loving home is better than being euthanized. Even if the owner is absent for most of the work week.

I see the logic, but I do not agree with it. On the one hand, I have seen familes who spend plenty of time with the dog but really have no idea how to train or socialize. I would rather see a dog go to a home where the humans now how to interact with dogs and spend less time overall and help them live in a human world.

But what bothers me more about this statement is that it seems justifiable that dogs who are deliberately being brought into the world by humans are somehow more deserving of "better" homes than dogs who are in shelters.

Originally Posted by Shalva

So at two weeks old I take my file of puppy applications and I start weighing the pros and cons of each family..... or each person.... and there are 3 things that kill it for me..... 1. MUST have a fenced yard,
2. must generally own their own home 3. Must have the dog be in the house and part of the family.
Now those may sound unreasonable but I would rather hold onto a puppy for an extra month or couple months or whatever to make sure that at a minimum those three conditions are met....

.... I know that my own breeder now requires a dog door that I mentioned above.... do I think its ridiculous.... YES do I have good reasons for not having a dog door YES ..... but thats the way it goes.

And that is the way it goes for a lot of us. See, to Shalva, requiring a dog door is ridiculous, but that is the way it goes. To me, requiring a fenced yard is ridiculous. (and YES I do have good reasons). Again, that is the way it goes. Whoever has the dog makes the rules, and somewhere someone else will get KOd by one that they find ridiculous. Is it any wonder that pet stores and BYBs stay in business?

[Ceph]

I thought I would post my two cents in here -

I hate to say I am with Wimble woof here. I am a full time student and I work as a dog trainer and I will be living in an apartment come august - in the midst of all of this I am bringing a pup into my home...and a high energy one at that. I know alot of people that would have a problem with this...but sometimes people dont see what else is out there.

Like I may be gone all day - and I realize that is hard on the pup - but it was hard on my Dad's Jay when we adopted him...but we woke up early in the morning and exercised him...we made sure he was paper trained (He is both outdoor and paper trained - sometimes we dont wake up early enough to get him out...or we may be gone during the day in which case the paper helps). When we came home that evening we worked with him and trained him and played - he turned into a happy well adjusted dog.

With Ruby I know I may be gone - some days all days and for other days only a few - but when I am there I am going to do everything I can to make sure she is happy and adjusted. I think it is silly to prevent people from owning a dog just because they have to work. My god - if we hadnt gotten Jay I dont know what i would do - he has turned into my father's therapy dog...and even though Dad needs to work all day he has someone who loves him to come home to....that little bit has allowed me to stop worrying about him everyday.

I also see this argument about people who shouldnt own dogs in apartments. Weeeeeell, for some I imagine it would be a problem for a high energy dog....but for others like myself I dont see it. I am very active - I walk several hours a day...I hate to run but I do that in the mornings to keep in shape...I am working as an obedience instructor and I will also be taking Ruby to classes where she will be doing work...whether it be agility, bitework or herding....in all honsety...she is probably going to end up sleeping though the day...hec...I am home for the summer now...but for Jay who is an active dog (Husky-shep X) - I take him running in the morning and he doesnt stop lazing around until dad gets home in the evening.

So I think it is silly for people to say you cant have a dog because of these reasons...with the breeder...yes I understand if you have the choice between two experienced households and one will provide more time and the other wont - that makes sense...but if someone is going to do all they can for that dog...work and play with them and devote their free time to them like wimble woof was saying...then I think that also needs some serious consideration - its better than someone who is home all day but doesnt interact with the pup or keeps them in a kennel...and as far as rescues go - I ended up getting Jay from a shelter that didnt do a background check - it's risky because you dont know who might end up with the dog - but I couldnt find an adoption group who would adopt to my family because we were gone too long and because I was too young (I was the one who found and placed Jay with the Family). You know what - Jay is one of the happiest dogs on the planet - he loves everyone and everything and people comment on that all the time...even my grandmother who hates dogs thinks he is happy and actually pretty wonderful...I know we get good comments from the group we get him groomed at. Is all of this our doing? No - alot of it is that he is just a great dog - but I also think we had something to do with it as well - especially as far as his training and socialization...

There is one other thing - one of my favorite White Shepherd breeders requires a fenced yard which is why I was unable to get a pup from her. I dont hold it against her...and I understand her reasoning....but I quite frankly wont need one...I am just to active...I enjoy going out with my dogs...I like walking or running or throwing a ball accross the corn fields or the cross country tracks at Tech...I want to attend classes with my dogs - to work with them and title them. I dont mind walking outside at 2am in the morning to make sure the pup gets out...its just who I am. I dont hold it against her - but I hope that in the future she sees that I dont need that fenced in yard too much. With Ruby I wont have one - but I will make sure she is well exercised...that she is house trained, and that she is happy. I understand the need of the breeder...but I think for some they just dont need them....I am one of them.

I think that maybe people dont see past the superficial stuff...for the for the good or the bad...Those are the things that are important to look at I think.

Sorry if not a whole lot of this makes sense - I kind of just let it all out in no particular order...kind of typed as it came to my mind.

~Cate

[peace36]

For a certain breed of dog I can certainly see the reason for having a fenced yard and if you are trying to home a paticular breed that should have a fenced yard and that person wants that dog bad enough they should have no problem putting in a doggie door.


To me say a pekeneese breeder required someone to have a fenced yard. While I agree it would be nice to have but really should not be a deal breaker. Just my opinion. I think though the breeder has every right to ask for what they want for thier puppies.

Originally Posted by Ceph

I hate to say I am with Wimble woof here. I am a full time student and I
I think that maybe people dont see past the superficial stuff...for the for the good or the bad...Those are the things that are important to look at I think.

~Cate

I do not think it is a superficial opinion at all to think a dog should not be sitting home alone for long periods of time 5 days a week. That is a long time. You are working (or going to school) then have a small amount of time for you to do what you need to get done around your home and eat dinner and clean up poop on papers in the house and then what how many ours other than the week end does you dog have any attention before you go to sleep at night. I can not be much. Especially for a high energy dog.

I see nothing wrong with working all day if you come home in the afternoon or have someone else come in and take your doggie for a walk and pet him but I think it is rather selfish to get a dog and give it attention only when it is convienent for you.

[taurus]

Originally Posted by Shalva

see here is the thing..... I would never have given you a puppy knowing that the dog was going to be outside all day while you weren't home.... thats trouble looking for a place..... and this is why responsible breeders are so careful..... and want someone home all day.... to prevent things like this. I have a fully fenced yard and never leave the dogs out all day.... I think DogAdvocat said it best.... as a breeder I have no responsibility to anyone but that puppy and I am going to find the home that I think will make that puppy happy and healthy and give the puppy the time it deserves.... normally I have more applications than I have puppies.... so someone gave a breakdown of the time in a day.... and if I have to think about the chance of success and making the puppy happy then I think about that breakdown of time in a day. Weekends are great but while we are off having friends, talking on the phone, going to work having carreers that puppy has only YOU...... and to have that puppy sit home all day waiting for YOU doesn't seem quite fair.... when you get home and in the four hours you have left you have a bazillion other things to do.... now you (generic you) might find time to do some training and spend some time... but lets really think about all the other things you have to do......

So if I have 20 applications for 8 puppies ...... guess who will get the puppy..... if all things are equal and usually they are because I screen out folks who would really not be good .... they don't even get an application to fill out. So at two weeks old I take my file of puppy applications and I start weighing the pros and cons of each family..... or each person.... and there are 3 things that kill it for me..... 1. MUST have a fenced yard,
2. must generally own their own home 3. Must have the dog be in the house and part of the family.
Now those may sound unreasonable but I would rather hold onto a puppy for an extra month or couple months or whatever to make sure that at a minimum those three conditions are met..... I am NOT in the business of selling puppies.... I am already deeply in the red with this flat coat litter. I find it interesting the idea and insinuations that somehow responsible breeders compete with each other for business ..... just recently I was talking to a guys wife and I told her that I matched puppies to people and nobody picks their own puppy (some very knowledgeable flat coat folks may pick but I have veto rights always) ..... and he says to me "well then I guess we don't do business unless I pick" now this is not a car dealership.... there is no squabbling or arguing or pressuring me to do something I don't want to do.... "I said he might want to call __________ another breeder who had pups on the ground but that as far as I knew nobody lets anyone pick in this breed" I got an email from them the next day asking if we could compromise..... I said no ............

My point is that it doesn't matter if people think we are unreasonable.... its funny that the same things that people complain about with puppy mills and their not screening and not having standards and if you go you can plunk down your money and picks yer pet..... are the same things that people complain about with responsible breeders......

There are plenty of breeders that I wouldn't qualify for a puppy from. There were a few breeders that wouldn't let me use their stud dog with Shalva.... I don't do enough field work for them. I do work in the field but these were heavy duty field people.... and I don't do enough in the field. That is the way it goes.... if that is something that they feel is important then I can't argue with that ...... I know that my own breeder now requires a dog door that I mentioned above.... do I think its ridiculous.... YES do I have good reasons for not having a dog door YES ..... but thats the way it goes.

we never left the puppy outside for hours, we let the dog outside for hours

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by taurus

we never left the puppy outside for hours, we let the dog outside for hours

doesnt matter if it was the puppy or the dog .... and note I said you left the dog outside for hours..... a fence is not substitute for having a supervising person home. That is the problem with fences, people think that as long as they have a fence the dog can be outside all day.

[taurus]

why couldnt it? and whats wrong with the dog bieng outside for 6 hours by itself with food water a comfortable place to sleep and tons of toys?