[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by peace36

I know it is mostly bad owners but at the time you are being bit who really cares why they are biting certian types of dogs there may be more of and have bad owners so it is the ones that are shown to bite more I want to stay away from.

When it comes to biting dogs there is one factor and one factor only that should be considered on why a dog bites. And that's the owner! Not the breed. Once a dog is born into the world, it's too late to worry about the genes - the controlling factor is now training. So you can make all the lists you want, but it means nothing. Give me an Akita with that I can teach bite inhibition to, and I'll show you a dog that doesn't deserve to be on a list. All these lists do is condemn a dog to be feared by the inexperienced, and to give reason not to train, or worse to have the dog euthanized. It's as silly as it gets.

[Alpha]

Pit bull terrier 1110 495 397 104 608 #

I'm just being picky, do they mean the American Pitbull Terrier?

Or did they combine, the American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pitbull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and many of the other labelled "pitbull" breeds?

I don't think I saw any of the other pitbull breeds on the list, so I'm just assuming that they combined them all together.

It's funny, because whenever I see these posts, I always go back and look at the results for temperment testing and see that American Pitbull Terriers pass with a very high percentage rate (84.1%). Of course the dogs tested are probably owned by responsible dog owners.

[cbow]

What breed gets the "points" when they are mixed? Lab/Pit, GSD/Husky, Who can tell what breed they are? When some of these are more that one breed put together? How many bites are not reported?
Just some of my simple thoughts.




Most of these stats. combine all "pit bull types" together.

If it is a pit bull/anyother type who gets blamed? JMO

[squirt1968]

All, I know is the ones with high scores are the dogs that I try to stay away from. It may be bad owners but I don't know who is who and no time for an interview if I see a dog that I view as a potential danger so I will continue to avoid those breeds

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by peace36

I know it is mostly bad owners but at the time you are being bit who really cares why they are biting certian types of dogs there may be more of and have bad owners so it is the ones that are shown to bite more I want to stay away from.

no what it means is that certain types of people are attracted to certain types of dogs... ie. a gang member is not going to be intimidating walking down the street with a standard poodle or a golden retriever. and that is why we need to know about the people it is the same as the intact dog statistics.....
looking at the people who don't neuter their dogs who are those people who generally would have a certain breed and not neuter.
s

[Ginny01OT]

I agree Shalva. Unfortunately some people breed dogs to fight and, again, it is the people. If you really want to get sticky with this, pitbulls do not have the highest percentage of deaths per bite--statistically, rotties and some other breeds have a higher percentage of death per number of bites. (heck, if the pomeranian had one recorded bite that resulted in death, that dogs percentage according to these statistics are 100%)-- I have to admit as much as a dog lover I am there are some dogs I just don't like and some I really like but am afraid of. And I do believe there are some breeds of dog that it is recommended third party insurance be taken out on in the case of an incident to protect ones assets. Again, it is because of irresponsible breeders and owners and there are some dogs, because of the breeding, that just aren;t nice.

[Alpha]

I don't see anything wrong with disliking certain breeds, I know there are a tonne of breeds I don't "like" or that wouldn't suit me. But that's not to say that I don't think they should exist, or that I hate them, or that I hope that breeds mauls a child so I can post about. (Not saying that's what your doing Ginny)

I guess it's when people don't realize that dogs are NOT humans, and WE are the ones that are responsible for their actions. We're the ones that bring them around so if they cause harm who's fault is it? By no means does it make it right, or okay, but trully who should've avoided the problem?

Like a young child that causes trouble with the law. The parents are responsible for the child because the child isn't old enough to be responsible for their own actions, dogs are NEVER responsible enough for their own actions in our world! LOL

There are some breeds I'm afraid of too, but by saying I'm afraid, doesnt' mean that I'll automatically write the whole breed off. Yes I'm darned cautious, but I don't blame the dogs.

That's why I love Hades so much. He looks like your typical pitbull, and trully when it comes to loving humans he's also "breed standard". A stranger could walk up to him and roll over onto his back immediately for a belly rub, and maybe give a soft kiss on the face.

[Ginny01OT]

I agree Alpha--what is interesting is that I may be afraid of or dislike certain breeds (you would be surprised of which ones, not what you are all thinking and I am not going to say because I don't want to insult anyone) and I would go to the dog park (I don't anymore but that is a whole other story) and I would see this breed walking up with its owner and I would say to my husband, "Okay, let's go now" and he would tell me to stop being silly and just wait. Usually the dog was one of the nicest ones there and the ones you (or I) would expect to be nice just weren't. Looks are deceiving and you are right, it is not fair to judge an entire breed based on one or two bad apples.

[peace36]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I don't see anything wrong with disliking certain breeds, I know there are a tonne of breeds I don't "like" or that wouldn't suit me. But that's not to say that I don't think they should exist, or that I hate them, or that I hope that breeds mauls a child so I can post about. (Not saying that's what your doing Ginny)
.

Originally Posted by Shalva

no what it means is that certain types of people are attracted to certain types of dogs... ie. a gang member is not going to be intimidating walking down the street with a standard poodle or a golden retriever. and that is why we need to know about the people it is the same as the intact dog statistics.....

I agree with you there Shalva.

I do not dislike Pitt Bulls. But I want to be no where near one unless I know the owner and they are responsible.

[Alpha]

I get nervous when the friendliest of dogs approach us! LOL. Yes, even the happy go lucky retrievers! After our bad experiences, I can't help but be nervous, than of course my dogs sense I'm nervous, just a bad chain reaction.

I feel it's better to be safe than sorry. I see NOTHING wrong with picking and choosing who your dog interacts with. I do it all the time. It's when you let your guard down that scary stuff happens.

Knowing Hades personality, I let my guard down with SBT that attacked Roxy, in fact I and everyone else was more nervous that ROXY was going to nip him! I think it was an eye opener for everyone, including the dog's owner who's been participating quite actively in fighting the breed ban.

[Dorygirl]

Once a dog is born into the world, it's too late to worry about the genes - the controlling factor is now training.

Curbside ~ So you're saying that genetic traits can be eliminated by training?
Say a pit bull comes from a long line of fighters. You can train that out of him?

When it comes to biting dogs there is one factor and one factor only that should be considered on why a dog bites. And that's the owner!

But that doesn't explain the families who think they have a sweet dog with no signs of aggression, and then the dog bites somebody.
I find it hard to believe that it's never the dog's fault. Are there really no bad dogs in the world? Maybe you can do everything right and still end up with a problem dog.

[RonE]

I know very little about pits. I do know that dogs, unlike people, never do something for no reason at all. They aren't lovely family dogs one minute and then, without any warning at all, just snap.

Just because the owners were too ignorant or untrained to recognize the problem, doesn't mean it just appeared at random.

And yes, I believe that if you can train a lab guide dog to ignore a squirrel just inches from his face, you can train a fighting dog to not fight.

I don't think I could do it, which is why I don't keep fighting dogs.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Dorygirl

Curbside ~ So you're saying that genetic traits can be eliminated by training?
Say a pit bull comes from a long line of fighters. You can train that out of him?

It is true that genetics can make certain behaviors like fighting with other dogs easier to learn in some cases, or interfere with learning in other cases, there is no neat correlation between how much a behavior is thought to be genetically influenced and its susceptibility to behavior modification. All this means is if you don't take the steps early to help your dog learn better behaviors when they are young, you will have to work significantly much harder to train the dog than the person that did.

But that doesn't explain the families who think they have a sweet dog with no signs of aggression, and then the dog bites somebody.
I find it hard to believe that it's never the dog's fault. Are there really no bad dogs in the world? Maybe you can do everything right and still end up with a problem dog.

Don't get me wrong, there are dogs with some pretty messed up genetics, and should be euthanized on the spot. But the biggest problem in dogdom are the owners who neglect training their pup how to bite, of have no knowledge of the signals that can help to prevent such a bite. Most puppies are taken away from their littermates at 8 weeks and isolated from the world until the critical socialization window is closed. This is a disaster for puppy development. So yes, we humans are a large factor in ruining our dogs, only to blame the dog later for something we could have prevented, or at the very least diminished with constant socialization with other dogs, people, and children. Dr. Ian Dunbar says that if your 8 week old puppy hasn't met at least 100 people by that age, your breeder is ruining that dog, and I couldn't agree more.

[cshellenberger]

I'll have to find the article, but I read somewhere that behavior is 30% genetics and 70% environmental. Therefore, the training and socialization can have a HUGE impact on how a dog of ANY breed will turn out though a well bred dog from parents with great temperments has a better chance with the proper training and socialization.

[Ginny01OT]

I believe that owners and proper training and socialization is paramount for ANY dog but I think that we also have to blame some of the irresponsible breeders out there who also contribute to the problem.

[Curbside Prophet]

Absolutely breeders can be blamed too, (open comment to all) and don't think for a minute show or trial breeders are immune from ruining genetics. But there are fewer of them then there are dog owners. IMO, if dog owners can become better owners it will change breeding for the better. I mean if an owner can stay away from breeders who are selling pups that hide in corners or growl at people for no reason, owners can minimize the contibutions to the gene pool by bad breeders. The hard part is getting there.

[peace36]

Originally Posted by Dorygirl

Curbside ~ So you're saying that genetic traits can be eliminated by training?
Say a pit bull comes from a long line of fighters. You can train that out of him?



But that doesn't explain the families who think they have a sweet dog with no signs of aggression, and then the dog bites somebody.
I find it hard to believe that it's never the dog's fault. Are there really no bad dogs in the world? Maybe you can do everything right and still end up with a problem dog.

I see what you are saying here. In my opinoin it is still the owners fault. Most owners have no business getting that type of dog. Most families with children could not possibly give a Pit Bull the time he needs to be a good dog. And it is not that the family is horrible they just did not realize what it takes to own one.

Possibley because there seem to be 2 groups of people.

Group 1 says how horrible and mean pits are
Group 2 raves on and on what a great family dog they make. And how loving they are toward children.

So people with families fall into the trap Group 2 create

[RonE]

I'm in group 3. There's a lot to admire about pits and the people that actually know how to work with them but I don't want one.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I get nervous when the friendliest of dogs approach us! LOL. Yes, even the happy go lucky retrievers! After our bad experiences, I can't help but be nervous, than of course my dogs sense I'm nervous, just a bad chain reaction.

If I could just comment on this...... Alpha,,,, the problem is that people think that their happy go lucky retrievers are not dogs.... and as such should not behave as dogs. I see it all the time with my flat coats and goldens.... pet people in particular but also show folks are often shocked when a retriever bares its teeth or bites or does whatever, but the fact is that retrievers are dogs and as such respond to things as dogs. Not every
DOG is going to like every other dog... many of our retrievers DON'T speak dog very well. Because they are the happy go lucky dogs of the dog world we tend to make them into people and treat them as such and thus they never learn to speak dog, they ignore dog body language.... they run up on other dogs..... they just don't get it.....

In flat coats people all the time will say that flat coats should be happy all the time and never have a cross word for another dog.... but I watched my shalva growl at my sister in law last night when she went up to see the babies.....

This to me is the biggest problem with retrievers..... and I think it is one of the reasons that even the friendliest dog will bite..... dogs will be dogs.
s

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I'd rather see statistics for the types of owners that own them.

You are so right!!!!!! How many were tied out for good, how many socialized, how many were just aquired and the family didn't know the dog?

People don't think about the size of a dog either when it comes to a bite. When a small dog bites most often it is not reported because of the damage, it is not much. A larger breed does alot more damage so people have to go get treatment. I have been bit doing what I do numerous times and I have only have to go to the emergency room once because I needed stitches. So this had to be reported in my State by the staff there. I have been bit by little dogs but never went anywhere because the damage was small but I always request proof that the dogs UTD on shots.