[SunSiberians]

It saddens me to see the concept of a working dog slipping away. It's created an enormous problem. For thousands of years dogs have evolved to effeciantly work in some way or another and only recently have they suddenly become solely pets. The problems arrises when people buy these breeds, let's say like a Jack Russel Terrier and then give it up for adoption because they can't handle it's aggressive and energetic nature. Those instincs are hard wired into the dogs and often they aren't given any outlet. I think it's up to us, as pet owners, to owe it to our dogs to give them that outlet. Even if it's in the most simplest of methods like taking your dog out for long daily walks.

I began pondering this when I saw a couple at the dog park exercising their dogs. They had two Border Collies - one was trained to chase after the ball and catch it, and the other was trained to point at the ball if the other one missed it. It was really an amazing thing to whitness the amount of energy, instinct and enthusiam these dogs had, I couldn't help but smile. The owner told me that both her dogs were actually rescued - given up because of their energy. Which made me then think of how many dogs unfortunately don't have this outlet. I often see Border Collies being given up because they're too much to handle - but that's why we wanted them in the first place - they had the energy and intelligence to round up our live stock in ways we couldn't. I remember in a group obedience class there was a man who was working with his Australian Shepherd puppy. He was so frustrated with her. Every day in class, he'd yell about how much energy she has and how they are forced to keep her in a crate all day and night. Then during play time, he wouldn't let his dog play and the poor thing wanted so badly to. One day, he didn't show up and the trainer said he had to give the dog up because he couldn't handle her. My heart sank. I understand why he had to do what he did, but what I don't understand is why did he buy a breed that was so energetic in the first place?

Anyway...goodness, I didn't intend to write a novel! Wow, it just sort of spilled out. My point of this thread is to see what you all do to give your dog that outlet? Whether it's a traditional form like tracking or herding, or a more modern form like agility, jogging, etc.

Also do you have a dog that was bred for a specific exercise, but you do something completely different with it? for example a Chow Chow trained for agility or a Siberian Husky trained as a hunting companion (they do have a strong prey drive, why not?).

[Shalva]

I agree that it is sad to see so many dogs have the instinct bred right out of them.....

I do work my dogs..... Shalva and her litter was bred specifically for working ability. I could have chosen any stud dog... but I would not use a dog that did not have field ability. The sire I chose was one who had been imported because of health and working ability.

what I dont like however, on the other side of the coin are breed splits.... I want my dog to go into the breed ring and be conformationally sound and have good type...... AND also be able to go out into the field and do what they were bred to do....

its not an either or.... we as breeders should be striving to do both.
s

[Tess&Coco]

We have two lab crosses. We don't do any formal activity with them at the moment, but I may look into agility and/or obedience with Coco (6 months old).

They get daily walks which always include a session of fetch or "find it" which appeals to their retrieve instincts. Several times a week they go swimming - Coco has just started to enjoy swimming out of her depth to fetch a ball or stick. Tess (8 years old) loves the water and will go on and on fetching her tennis ball.

At weekends we go for a longer hike (up to about 10 miles). Our holidays or longer weekends during the summer tend to be hillwalking or mountain walking which we have yet to introduce Coco to (need to train her not to chase sheep!). We also go to the seaside every month to six weeks so they get time on the beach.

[SunSiberians]

Originally Posted by Shalva

I agree that it is sad to see so many dogs have the instinct bred right out of them.....

I do work my dogs..... Shalva and her litter was bred specifically for working ability. I could have chosen any stud dog... but I would not use a dog that did not have field ability. The sire I chose was one who had been imported because of health and working ability.

what I dont like however, on the other side of the coin are breed splits.... I want my dog to go into the breed ring and be conformationally sound and have good type...... AND also be able to go out into the field and do what they were bred to do....

its not an either or.... we as breeders should be striving to do both.
s

That's really wonderful. My Kapu came from a racing kennel, Kapu was too small for her teams. He's a wonderful dog and an amazing worker. His sledding instincs are amazing. However his conformation is laughable - terrible coat, bad tail...etc. Often the siberians that are show and sled dogs are only run recreationally - it's very rare for a pure bred, show standard husky to when the races - although they most certainly will finish. There are much faster crosses (lots of hound & husky crosses) that proffessional mushers would rather work with.
I think that's wonderful that you are working with both show and working dogs. You're the kind of breeder I look for.

Originally Posted by Tess&Coco

We have two lab crosses. We don't do any formal activity with them at the moment, but I may look into agility and/or obedience with Coco (6 months old).

They get daily walks which always include a session of fetch or "find it" which appeals to their retrieve instincts. Several times a week they go swimming - Coco has just started to enjoy swimming out of her depth to fetch a ball or stick. Tess (8 years old) loves the water and will go on and on fetching her tennis ball.

At weekends we go for a longer hike (up to about 10 miles). Our holidays or longer weekends during the summer tend to be hillwalking or mountain walking which we have yet to introduce Coco to (need to train her not to chase sheep!). We also go to the seaside every month to six weeks so they get time on the beach.

I bet they're very happy! What kind of crosses are they? They're gorgeous.

[Airem]

with my other labs i had i was never really around to give them the outlet they need because i wasn't active like i am now. Once Roxy gets over her parvo and gets to a good size i'll probably try to get her to run with me.

[Tess&Coco]

Originally Posted by SunSiberians

My Kapu came from a racing kennel, Kapu was too small for her teams. He's a wonderful dog and an amazing worker. His sledding instincs are amazing. However his conformation is laughable - terrible coat, bad tail...etc.

I bet they're very happy! What kind of crosses are they? They're gorgeous.

Thanks! Coco (in the avatar) is half chocoate lab and half german shorthaired pointer. Tess is black lab and ??? possibly staffie.

So do you sled with Kapu?

[SunSiberians]

Originally Posted by Tess&Coco

Thanks! Coco (in the avatar) is half chocoate lab and half german shorthaired pointer. Tess is black lab and ??? possibly staffie.

So do you sled with Kapu?

We bikejorn, I also have a scooter that I will eventually use when they're ready. Right now Kapu just runs in front of me on harness on the bike. I'm also getting Lakota in shape, he's still not ready to run long distances yet, but once he's in shape I'll have him and Kapu pulling me on scooter. That's the plan anyay...hope it works!
In 2-3 years I am moving to a place up north where the summers are mild and the winters always have lots of snow - then I'll be able to sled. I smile just thinking about how happy my dogs will be in a cold climate - they'll be in absolute heaven.

We also go backpacking as frequently as possible, they carry their own packs.

[tirluc]

i have 4 Borders of my own and i know how much time they take.....b/4 i got my first one (the male was gotten for my son as a buddy), my Lacey, i was pretty much content to not do much in the way of outside activities.....but after i got her it was walks every night and the dog park during the day time for about 3 hrs....then came Tir and then Saoirse and i am now doing agility stuff, going to get into rally, and doing things that are pretty much totally dog stuff.....

and on the working end, being as we are city people (unfortunately) and can't have sheep (maybe i can do like in Japan and convince the county that they are Poodles?), we have started goose control w/ them and this puts them back in work.....

so, all in all they have made my life much more active than i ever thought it would be....

unless people are willing to change their lifestyle to fit to the dogs needs (and there are competitions out there for just about everything) the dog is going to suffer.....here we come down to the "it's just a dog" mentality again....

[Jen D]

IMO I think that if a dog has a job no matter what it is even walking it is a good thing. My breed was bred for pulling, bullbaiting, and yes fighting. Now they are hikers and love it!

[Tankstar]

Well I have a collie. He doesnt have a job. He is a town dog, we have a very small back yard (probably 12 feet wide and 20 feet long). I take him to the lake almost every day and spend about a hour and a half with him there, he enjoys swimming and retriving sticks and balls for me. (deffiently not in his breed description lol). I like the water sports with him as it is more active and tiring for him to swim out and get somthing. Then after a half hour or so in the water we go to the field by the lake with more off leash time where he chases birds and bunnies and what not. Then back to the water for another half hour or so. Then back home. later he may get another good walk on lead, or I may harness him up and ride on a bike with him for about 5km (its 2.5 kms to the nearest store, so we go there and turn around int he parking lot). I think I work him enough, I wish I had more land for him instead of the back yard we have. Me and the BF are talking about moving in together, and he wand I both agree we need a larger back yard for Blaze to have more room to run when he does go out there (he is a inside dog, but like every dog he loves to be out in the back yard) I know its not all ideal for him, but I try to accomodate him as best as I can.

ETA: We also do the dog park thing once or twice a week which is about 3 -5 hours depending on how long I feel like being out there. Normally atleast 3 hours though lol.

Plus all the mental stimulation he gets with playing in the house with me, and going to pet stores just to interact with other dogs as much as possible.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by tirluc

i have 4 Borders of my own and i know how much time they take.....b/4 i got my first one (the male was gotten for my son as a buddy), my Lacey, i was pretty much content to not do much in the way of outside activities.....but after i got her it was walks every night and the dog park during the day time for about 3 hrs....then came Tir and then Saoirse and i am now doing agility stuff, going to get into rally, and doing things that are pretty much totally dog stuff.....

and on the working end, being as we are city people (unfortunately) and can't have sheep (maybe i can do like in Japan and convince the county that they are Poodles?), we have started goose control w/ them and this puts them back in work.....

so, all in all they have made my life much more active than i ever thought it would be....

unless people are willing to change their lifestyle to fit to the dogs needs (and there are competitions out there for just about everything) the dog is going to suffer.....here we come down to the "it's just a dog" mentality again....

Border Collies..... yeesh, they do take a special type of person and unfortunately for them they have gotten really popular lately.... so many people dont have a clue as to what their needs are..... excellent that you have found an outlet for their talents even being city folks.....

I feel bad for alot of these guys.... my neighbor has one from a strong working line... the kids forgot about him and the husband takes him running but you can see as you go buy that he just wnats to herd.....

border collies are hard work and like every dog definitely not for everyone.
s

[SunSiberians]

Originally Posted by Tankstar

Well I have a collie. He doesnt have a job. He is a town dog, we have a very small back yard (probably 12 feet wide and 20 feet long). I take him to the lake almost every day and spend about a hour and a half with him there, he enjoys swimming and retriving sticks and balls for me. (deffiently not in his breed description lol). I like the water sports with him as it is more active and tiring for him to swim out and get somthing. Then after a half hour or so in the water we go to the field by the lake with more off leash time where he chases birds and bunnies and what not. Then back to the water for another half hour or so. Then back home. later he may get another good walk on lead, or I may harness him up and ride on a bike with him for about 5km (its 2.5 kms to the nearest store, so we go there and turn around int he parking lot). I think I work him enough, I wish I had more land for him instead of the back yard we have. Me and the BF are talking about moving in together, and he wand I both agree we need a larger back yard for Blaze to have more room to run when he does go out there (he is a inside dog, but like every dog he loves to be out in the back yard) I know its not all ideal for him, but I try to accomodate him as best as I can.

ETA: We also do the dog park thing once or twice a week which is about 3 -5 hours depending on how long I feel like being out there. Normally atleast 3 hours though lol.

Plus all the mental stimulation he gets with playing in the house with me, and going to pet stores just to interact with other dogs as much as possible.

That sounds good! It doesn't have to be anything fancy - the main concern is just getting them exercised and it sounds like he has plenty of good, tiring fun.

[Alpha]

A think a dog with a job is a happy dog.

On the other hand, I would much rather prefer Hades to be a couch potatoe rather than out in the pits. Roxy on the other hand, I think it would be a lot of fun to get her into herding as well as some protection work, but even then it wouldn't be a REAL job. It's not like I own a farm and her work is actually required, but I do think she would enjoy it, seeing as that is what she was bred to do, and she does have the instinct, oh lord does she have a tonne of it!

There's nothing better than seeing an old farmer with two Border's that do a job that's needed, but in this day and age I just don't think it's feasible.

What is feasible though, is to give these dogs new jobs, that relate to what they were bred for. It may not be the same, but it's better than nothing.

[onyxdaily]

My hound, unfortunately, cannot be off leash unless completely fenced in (she has a tendancy to run after things, not surprising). We do play with her on a long lead (16 feet). We even try to run with her, but she is much faster than us and we have a hard time keeping up, lol. We do have a smaller fenced area (approx 15 x 15) and we put her in there so she can be off her leash, and she gives herself a work out in there, she's on alert constantly, watching every little thing, and if she doesn't like what she is seeing, she lets you know, quite loudly. And she runs around the house alot, too. Our lab and saint bernard get alot of exercise. They run and play with each other in our yard, taking turns chasing each other or chasing us, lol. We also play fetch with all 3 dogs. We also have a pond and we are looking forward to starting some swim activities since it's warming up.

[luv4gsds]

I own two types of breed of dog the mini Dachshund and the German Shepherd Dog. I try my best to give each one of my dogs the attention and training they need. From personal protection, earthdog, herding, (starting on)tracking/scent and hunting (rabbit). We also do at home agility. I take all the dogs for walks in the woods that is be hind my house. I own eight acres. They also get playtime with my kids and me.

[SunSiberians]

Originally Posted by Alpha

What is feasible though, is to give these dogs new jobs, that relate to what they were bred for. It may not be the same, but it's better than nothing.

Yes! That really is what we can do. I bikejor with my babes because I can't sled - I just don't live in the right climate for it! But it's a compromise and although I'm sure they'd much rather be running in the snow, they're happy and content and that's important.

Originally Posted by luv4gsds

I own two types of breed of dog the mini Dachshund and the German Shepherd Dog. I try my best to give each one of my dogs the attention and training they need. From personal protection, earthdog, herding, (starting on)tracking/scent and hunting (rabbit). We also do at home agility. I take all the dogs for walks in the woods that is be hind my house. I own eight acres. They also get playtime with my kids and me.

That's amazing! I love watching the tracking dogs - it's so remarkable.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by SunSiberians

Yes! That really is what we can do. I bikejor with my babes because I can't sled - I just don't live in the right climate for it! But it's a compromise and although I'm sure they'd much rather be running in the snow, they're happy and content and that's important.

i don't know....i think a sled would run on all that Arizona sand almost as well as it does on snow .....i used to have 3 Sibes that i did do some sledding w/.....the neighbor kids loved it in the winter and i used them to haul groceries for me since i didn't have a car at the time.....hitch 2 of them to the wagon or sled and go shopping.....this was the time they couldn't just run all out and i had to have more control .....

Border Collies..... yeesh, they do take a special type of person and unfortunately for them they have gotten really popular lately.... so many people dont have a clue as to what their needs are..... excellent that you have found an outlet for their talents even being city folks.....

I feel bad for alot of these guys.... my neighbor has one from a strong working line... the kids forgot about him and the husband takes him running but you can see as you go buy that he just wnats to herd.....

border collies are hard work and like every dog definitely not for everyone.

Shalva, you're right on the aspect that it takes a special type of person for the Border.....but i have found that, under alot of circumstances, that "right type" is the person that says "Ok, this dog needs more to do....what can i do to fix that" and then gets involved in some sort of doggy sport that is great for the BC, instead of "this dog is driving me nutz" and drops it at the shelter or dumps it or whatever.....they really are not that hard to live w/ if the person is willing to "compromise" and give them their outlet....and, yeah, they have gotten popular, unfortunately......

if you can talk w/ the husband about him, tell him that on top of the running, if he can find some mind games to play w/ him (finding items, spelling, counting, anything that he can think of) for about 30 min a day, this should help make matters better for the dog....

[TrinityQuiet]

My kelpie is supposed to be a working dog...I have him because he had no interest in cows and less energy than most kelpies, and his owners were going to kill him. Useless dog, right? He was a rescue anyway...they thought feeding their dogs was ridiculous, they had to hunt for themselves. When I got him, I noticed reflective silvery hairs around his pelvis...they'd neutered him six to nine months before, sewn him up with wire, and left the wire threaded through him. I actually stole his sister from the owner. She was just a puppy, and he'd left her in the truck where she chewed on the seat---he hauled her up in the air, hanging by her back legs, and proceeded to kick in her ribs. Amazing, she never came back to him after running off that day I found her FANTASTIC owners, marathon runners who thought she was the sun and moon.

Unfortunately, I am not a very active person, and I just moved to an area where I don't know where to take him. Back home I took him to the dog park. I agree that they're such fantastic dogs...I've met humans less intelligent than my Bodie! I'd be interested in training him for competitions, if I knew how to begin. I had found another owner for him, someone very active that he loved, but he's still energetic, and kept jumping up on her elderly father, til it was a hazard to keep the dog =(

I've never known much of the lives of working dogs before...since becoming involved with kelpies, and some of the trashy, abusive owners, it really is sad. Bodie's pack truly were working dogs...he would be too, I think, if trained right. Anyway, there's my babbling on the topic of working dogs.

[Snowshoe]

What an interesting thread!!! I've really enjoyed it.

I think all dogs at one point in time or another had some kind of specific function.

Poodles are retrievers, Rottweilers were herding dogs (and now guarding dogs), Pekenese were watch dogs originally, I believe.

I think that all dogs do better with a job, anyway.

The non-sporting group is kind of a tough area for a dog to be in "work" wise. Dalmations used to run under carriages, the bull dog was used in bull baiting (a sport that was outlawed for its cruelty), and my own breed was used to guard the barges in Holland (in fact, a keeshond appears on the official Dutch seal).

I think that doing things like jogging, agility, playing ball, etc. are great ways for city people to become more involved with their dog. Teaching them games and tricks and general obedience gives them something to learn, and also makes them more compatable with humans.

I do have some concerns with the breeds that are almost exclusively used as working dogs, like the Australian Sheep Dog, the Kelpie, the Border Collie, and many of the spaniels and retrievers... at what point will their working drive become obsolete?

As much as I rail against breeding dogs soley for companions, isn't that the primary function of the modern dog? Some of these breeds aren't going to be good companions for everyone, my own and Tirluc's included (obviously for different reasons).

So, where do we go from here, folks?

[Wimble Woof]

The thing is, you dont "need" to be in agility or other sports like that to ensure your dogs are both physcally and mentally stimulated.
It just takes a creative mind.
I do NOT participate in any dog sports ( competitions) as its just unrealistic for me to do so right now, all these classes and events are held hours away from home.
However, I too have a BC and honestly he is most happy when I am giving him a new problem to solve. So far ( ahem... im tooting my horn here lol) he can, get the toy you are asking for, search for something ( ie, a glove that you burried a little under the ground), herd ( who'da thunk it huh lol) right now we are working on whistle training ( instead of commands) .
My Rottie Boxer, she isnt so fond of figureing things out, she prefers to dazzle people with her "upper class" attitude, shes a pampered princess and she knows it and in turn wants the world to know it.
For example, we were at Petsmart one day just shopping for new toys and there was a class going around the store in training. They were all acting up, barking and picking fights with each other ( just learning you know) and my Kita layed at my feet between me and the wall of toys, threw her nose in the air and completely ignored all the other dogs and distractions. The trainer was very impressed with this... as was I honestly, considering she's "just a farm gurl" with no "real" education, she never ceases to amaze me.
My rescue Cocker ( who is currently going in for test after test to see whats wrong with his heart or brain, we're not sure yet) I wanted to encourage his retrieval instinct, by training him for a bird dog, depending on the results from his tests we may still do it.

I think its horrifically sad that dogs are not being mentally stimulated and are veiwed more as "decorations" in so many cases.
A dog with a job IS truely a very happy dog.