[thomasina]

Originally Posted by vanbum

ya- i guess at least your trying. giving one dog a chance is better then nothing.

I know im not very popular on this board because my opinions are strong, and i offend people with my opinions, and I know that.

But Im sick of dogs dying every day in the pound, im sick of people breeding dogs for profit just to make money, and then they lie and pretend to breed for good reasons (BS -I dont see a lotta non-profit breeders, do you?)

In this day and age, when we are KILLING so many dogs every day, BREEDING IS WRONG! and i dont care what breed we are talking about.

What gives ANYONE the RIGHT to breed?

Oh I guess breeders just woke up one day and said "oh gee, i think I will breed goldens" well screw that! I dont care how fancy a breeders website is, THEY ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY! and they dont care about all the dogs that are killed every day. Oh- you dont think dogs from a breeder end up in the pound? well guess again. Once a puppy become a dog an amazing tranformation occurs - the dog becomes almost worthless. Its just another dog that needs a home that will end up dead if it does not find one.

ALL breeders want to convince you that they are not part of the problem, that they are "responsible" and its ok then. But thats BS and anyone with a hair of intelligence can figure that out.

I would ask any breeder " why does your life have to revolve around breeding?' cant they find something else to to do with their lives?

ya- heres the result of their breeding so they can make money:

Understand this. Breeders are in it for the money. plain and simple. They will try and convince you otherwise, but thats just because its in their best intrest for making a profit.

I hate breeders- i really do. Like they cant find something else to do with their lives that does not involve dogs? But the easy money is too hard to resist i guess.

Vanbum: I do not feel responsible for any overpopulation, since every single pet I have ever owned, including ferrets and bunnies have always been spayed or neutered, so I don't feel like WE are killing dogs every day, since I have nothing to do with the killing or the breeding of animals.
Also I really and truly wish you wouldn't have posted that awful picture. We all know that 10 thousand dog get euthanised every day. It's very heartbreaking and now because of that picture, I am in tears again. You should have given people the choice to open that pic at their own risk, with a " very graphic" warning first.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

I am not personally a breeder, but I do think you need to do some research before you start bashing on breeders the way you are. I mean if you are talking about BYBs, Puppymills and the like then by all means, bash away...but you cannot talk about reputable breeders being in it for the money because that is simply not the case.

No, I don't personally think bettering purebreeds is going to help the overpopulation problem...but people who are breeders and reputable ones (and there are some on this forum too) care a great deal about the over-population problem. These people may also have many rescued dogs and these people have all their non-show dogs spayed/neutered to help the problem.

It sounds to me like you believe exactly what the breeders want you to believe. ya they just woke up one day and said to themselves "Hmm i love goldens so much that I want to share them with everyone, and I will do this with money out of my own pocket and I will make sure they all go to respinsible homes"

Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Believe that if you wish.

You clearly need to do some research on reputable breeders. They DO put their buyers under legal contract. Anyone who says "I love insert breed here lets breed them" is clearly not a reputable breeder. The people who breed to better the breed save a lot of money before beginning their breeding process. They pay for DNA tests, puppy toys, food, shots, healthcare, vaccines (sometimes 2 rounds because they KEEP the puppies until they find a GREAT home)....most reputable breeders end up with a loss at the end of the breeding proces...thus THEY DO NOT MAKE MONEY!

you have not answered my question. what gives them the right?

Are you trying to tell me that those dogs in those barrels are less valuable then a purebread dog thats being sold by a breeder?

I never said I think pureBRED dogs have less of a value than those mixed dogs, but they aren't hurting the problem because THEY take ALL the precautions to stop these dogs from ending up like that.

I could go out today and bring home 20 shelter dogs and take care of them, and would there still be that many dead dogs in barrels? You bet there would!

It's these idiots who DO breed for the money that are making the problem worse. BYBs and Puppymills...and anyone breeding designer dogs...or people breeding because they have 2 dogs of the same breed and they want to make some extra bucks.... it's THOSE people who add the problem and NOT reputable breeders. If you don't want to listen then fine...but DO SOME RESEARCH before bashing ALL breeders because if you really think they make money off these litters every single time they breed then you're seriously mistaken.

Nobody gives them the right to do this...but it is something that has been done for centuries...and why not breed responsibly to better a breed for working purposes when you are being RESPONSIBLE and taking great care not to end up with puppies that will be euthanized.

But, oh wait, you don't even believe in having dogs that work. You clearly don't know much about dogs if you think it's cruel to have sled dogs, agility dogs...it's ridiculous.

[vanbum]

what???? LOL. You just dont get it.

Ya know. The problems with adopting children is kinda simular to adopting out dogs. The kids who are older or crippled or have health problems dont find
homes as fast as the healthy babies. And so we have orphanages. (sorry, my spell checker isnt working today if I got that wrong)

What if they started euthanising the kids they couldnt find homes for? I bet you would all trip over youselves to solve that problem wouldnt you? And if there were not enought perfect babies to go around, no problem, some people would breed them for you, so every couple who cant have their own children could adopt a perfect baby from a baby breeder.

Oh and if ya felt kinda guilty when ya saw a pic of unadoptable dead kids and babies in barrels, then you could simply justify it by saying that you got your kid from a "responsible" baby breeder.

Im sorry Thomasina - i dont want to see that pic either. But it pisses me off when people pretend to be involved in rescue and pretend to be helping the problem, when they are not doing much at all.

When I look at that pic, I say to myself "what the hell is going on! OH MY GOD, we need to do something about this!!" And I am doing all I can - I live in a van with mixed breed dogs, the kind they euth every day. (well, Arial is a pure dobie, but she's very old and totally blind, and i think her hearing is gone too)

A true Animal Rescuer hates that pic, and does all they can to help solve the problem. If you breed, or bought a dog from a breeder, then you are doing nothing to solve the problem. Justify it in your mind any way you want to.

As you are reading this post, somewhere out there a lab or a golden or a dobie mix is being held down and killed, heck more then one.

It all boils down to this: Breeders breed for their own needs- glory, money or whatever. They dont do it because they love dogs, if they loved dogs, they wouldnt breed, they would help solve the problem of pet overpopulation.

Rainbow Bridge. I hope that when we go there to see our pets who have passed on, we first have to walk through all the unwanted pets who had nobody who cared, and you have to look them in the eye and explain why you had to buy a dog from a breeder, and tell them why a purebread dog was so much more valuable then they would have been as your pet.

And they will look you in the eye as you pass by, and say "why not me? I would have been a loyal companion- i didnt deserve to be held down and killed in some dog pound just because im not as pretty as the dog you wanted"

If you breed or buy from a breeder, you are making the problem worse.

Vanbum.com

[Laurelin]

No YOU just don't get it.

I'd elaborate but I've got to go do my Oraganic labs and turn them in before 7 pm. I'll be back, I guarantee you.

Im sorry Thomasina - i dont want to see that pic either. But it pisses me off when people pretend to be involved in rescue and pretend to be helping the problem, when they are not doing much at all.

For the time being, how dare you say that people are not doing what they can to help dogs by posting one dog needing adoption or adopting one dog. Every little bit helps. Heck, five dogs crammed in a van is not much help at all. You don't know the posters on here. You don't know how many rescued dogs are on here or people that have rescued in the past or people that foster, etc. You have no right to start this 'holier than thou' crusade of yours.

And you cannot compare children to dogs, sorry it just doesn't work that way.

And you cannot lump all breeders together. It does not work that way either.

And this is going to sound totally evil but it's purebred, not purebread. Sorry, it's driving me insane.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

Heck, five dogs crammed in a van is not much help at all. You don't know the posters on here. You don't know how many rescued dogs are on here or people that have rescued in the past or people that foster, etc. You have no right to start this 'holier than thou' crusade of yours.

I agree. There are SO many people on here who rescue and/or foster on here. And five dogs in a van isn't great at all. Yeah maybe they are alive, but what happens if they do get sick or injured? How can you afford to care for them?

Originally Posted by Laurelin

And you cannot compare children to dogs, sorry it just doesn't work that way.

Exactly! Yeah I treat my dog like my child and I love her to bits...but dogs are still animals and not humans!

Originally Posted by Laurelin

And you cannot lump all breeders together. It does not work that way either.

Right again, BYBs and Puppymills are A LOT different than reputable breeders.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

And this is going to sound totally evil but it's purebred, not purebread. Sorry, it's driving me insane.

Agreed again I was about to scream! Did you seem my emphasis? Purebred


Vanbum: I don't want to be harsh and sound like we are attacking you...but YOU need to do some research on what actual, decent breeders do...and stop telling people they aren't doing their part in helping dogs.

It seems like according to your standards you should have a lot more than five dogs saved. I could easily tell you that I think five dogs out of all those ones in shelters is not helping the problem...that is as ridiculous as you sound!

[DogueEdaddy]

I should stay out of this, but I can't. It has gone on long enough. I hope my opinion doesn't offend any of y'all good folks.

Many here know that I'm waiting to get a Dogue De Bordeaux this summer. Yes, it will be from a breeder! I most assuredly did check out the breed specific rescue first. Unfortunately, most of those Bordeauxs were not good with other dogs, and my wife has a small dog which we got for life, so no way am I getting rid of her to get what I want. The rest were unavailable to me for various other reasons. Therefore I am buying from a breeder and my main concern isn't papers, super looks, etc. I want a decent looking Bordeaux which is healthy, from health tested parents, and at a price that my budget can afford. Yes I will be financially able to care for it. I will be spending 800/1000 and that is all I can justify.

Now the I'm sorry part, vanbum! The name says a lot to me. This person is a bum and proud of it. This person has made excuse upon excuse for not improving their situation. The 5 dogs need a better home than that. Their opinion; if you can't adopt ALL the dogs in rescue, you are worthless.

Gimmie a break! This diatribe needs to stop. OK, off my soapbox.

God Bless All......Stan

PS.......Almost forgot, I will pray that the dog in the original post gets a fine forever home.

[vanbum]

um gee - ya my dogs need a better home then what i have - of course!!!

I knew this would happen - i knew you would focus on my spelling errors instead of the problem. well congrats! i guess because i made a spelling error my arguement is pointless. Ok - gee you win then.

Ok - i give up, my spelling error means that i lose. grats. I knew some of you would focus on that instead of the real problem.

darn. I was hoping to change some of your minds, i hoped some of you would see the light. But I screwed up, i made a spelling error, and now you can claim victory because of that. darn.

But at least my spelling error gives some of you an excuse to focus on something else other then the dogs that are dyingb every day.

[Laurelin]

Actually, the spelling error was a very minor part of any of our posts, and you chose to totally ignore the rest of what we said.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by vanbum

um gee - ya my dogs need a better home then what i have - of course!!!

I knew this would happen - i knew you would focus on my spelling errors instead of the problem. well congrats! i guess because i made a spelling error my arguement is pointless. Ok - gee you win then.

Ok - i give up, my spelling error means that i lose. grats. I knew some of you would focus on that instead of the real problem.

darn. I was hoping to change some of your minds, i hoped some of you would see the light. But I screwed up, i made a spelling error, and now you can claim victory because of that. darn.

But at least my spelling error gives some of you an excuse to focus on something else other then the dogs that are dyingb every day.

Seriously have you tried reading the posts? We both mentioned...MENTIONED the fact that you kept spelling a word wrong. Can you please tell me where I correlated your misspelling of the word 'purebred' with losing this debate? I didn't. I think the point of us saying that you mispelled the word was because it was annoying.

I never once said you lose this argument because you spelled a word wrong. That's just stupid.

We both continued to tell you why your argument was weak and it was nothing to do with spelling.

I think you need to look around you here. Why do you think we are all in this forum? Because we don't give a rats butt that dogs are dying every day? Of course not!! We're all here because we LOVE dogs! Purebred, mixed breed...whatever! Simply having any kind of dog and showing others that irresponsible breedings is wrong and animals abuse is wrong help the problem!

I volunteer at a shelter and I have only adopted rescues and shelter dogs and cats. So don't tell me I don't care that dogs are dying every day! I care a lot. IT IS, however ridiclulous for me to dwell on the fact that I cannot save every dog out there.

IMO, you might as well say, well I can't save them all so why save any?

Now THAT is saying you don't care. I don't get what you are trying to point out here, other than the breeding thing which we clearly do not see eye to eye on.

But what is it that you are trying to say? That we don't care that dogs are dying? That because I live in a home and pay bills leaving me unable to own more than the one dog and two cats I have that I am not doing enough?

I respect that you have 5 dogs that you love and care for...but come on! If a person can only rescue one dog in their lifetime...that's ONE LESS DOG that has to die!

[RonE]

Around 2 million people die of malaria each year - at least half of them are children.

Let's say you could save 1 or a dozen or 100. (You can, in fact.) Would you be a failure or a hypocrite because you couldn't save the rest?

I think vanbum is enjoying his "me against the world" role and we're all feeding into it. We don't even know if his unlikely story is real or fantasy but his arguments sound a lot like PETA PR. I don't believe for a minute that he's really trying to change minds here, unless he truly believes that you do that with a combination of insults and questionable logic.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by RonE

Around 2 million people die of malaria each year - at least have of them are children.

Let's say you could save 1 or a dozen or 100. (You can, in fact.) Would you be a failure or a hypocrite because you couldn't save the rest?

I think vanbum is enjoying his "me against the world" role and we're all feeding into it. We don't even know if his unlikely story is real or fantasy but his arguments sound a lot like PETA PR. I don't believe for a minute that he's really trying to change minds here, unless he truly believes that you do that with a combination of insults and questionable logic.

What a good point RonE. Definitely sounds like a PETA mindset to me. I am getting pretty fed up with it anyway.

I think it's impossible for anyone to be expected to save EVERY single dog in that's stuck in a shelter. I have no idea if vanbum is actually living in a van with 5 dogs, but I am not about to go out and adopt 5 more dogs and move into my car with them. It's one thing to rescue dogs, it's another to have five dogs in a van when I assume there is no money for vet bills, vaccines, accident costs and all the important stuff in taking care of the adopted dogs.

[DogueEdaddy]

RonE, CrzyBrit, and Laurelin;

You folks are making one fatal error....You are trying to use facts and perfect logic on one who only rationalizes.

I'll admit I can't deal with people who rationalize things without logically thinking them through, so I took the easy way out and simply tuned this person out. Like I said; I am getting my Bordeaux from a breeder who meets my requirements precisely so that I give both him and my wifes dog forever homes.

God Bless All......Stan

PS.....I agree about the peta mindset but, remember, peta was caught euthanizing dogs! Great way to help them.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by DogueEdaddy

RonE, CrzyBrit, and Laurelin;

You folks are making one fatal error....You are trying to use facts and perfect logic on one who only rationalizes.

I'll admit I can't deal with people who rationalize things without logically thinking them through, so I took the easy way out and simply tuned this person out. Like I said; I am getting my Bordeaux from a breeder who meets my requirements precisely so that I give both him and my wifes dog forever homes.

God Bless All......Stan

This is true. I love debating on this site...but I cannot stand when people debate an issue without doing more research on it. Use logical thinking please people!

[vanbum]

Malaria??? WTF??? ya malaria sucks! I agree. But you only brought it up to prove a point. So tell me, how involved are you in the fight againt malaria? Um... not at all? ya.. I see. Just like you are not involved in the fight againt pet over-population.

[quote][I'll admit I can't deal with people who rationalize things without logically thinking them through, so I took the easy way out and simply tuned this person out./QUOTE]

Oh.. i guess my arguement isnt logical is is? oh.. i guess i just made it all up huh? Ya that must be the case. Its not like dogs are dying every day because nobody wants them right? Naa.. I must have made that up.

They are dying every day, And it makes me sick. Well, their not dying, they are being murdered, they are being held down and killed.

Have you taken a good look at that pic of dogs in barrels? have you really? Those dogs deserved a good life too, I DONT CARE if you wanted a dog from a breeder.

They are dying. what part of that dont you understand? Screw breeders!

Every day, unwanted dogs are being killed. every day. And you want to try and justify that breeding is right?

Do you know what its like to be dragged into a room and held down and killed?? Gee, if it happened to humans then you would speak up then wouldnt you????

no. I dont agree with PETA. well, with some issues I do and some I dont.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

[quote=vanbum;52003]Malaria??? WTF??? ya malaria sucks! I agree. But you only brought it up to prove a point. So tell me, how involved are you in the fight againt malaria? Um... not at all? ya.. I see. Just like you are not involved in the fight againt pet over-population.

[I'll admit I can't deal with people who rationalize things without logically thinking them through, so I took the easy way out and simply tuned this person out./QUOTE]

Oh.. i guess my arguement isnt logical is is? oh.. i guess i just made it all up huh? Ya that must be the case. Its not like dogs are dying every day because nobody wants them right? Naa.. I must have made that up.

They are dying every day, And it makes me sick. Well, their not dying, they are being murdered, they are being held down and killed.

Have you taken a good look at that pic of dogs in barrels? have you really? Those dogs deserved a good life too, I DONT CARE if you wanted a dog from a breeder.

They are dying. what part of that dont you understand? Screw breeders!

Every day, unwanted dogs are being killed. every day. And you want to try and justify that breeding is right?

Do you know what its like to be dragged into a room and held down and killed?? Gee, if it happened to humans then you would speak up then wouldnt you????

no. I dont agree with PETA. well, with some issues I do and some I dont.

I'm really sorry here, but WHAT IS YOUR POINT? I really cannot figure it out? All you keep saying is 'dogs are being killed. Every day dogs are dying" Um, yes we know that...and? Are you telling us we aren't doing enough. You didn't answer any of my questions at all.

What are you trying to say here? I mean by all means explain. Are you telling me that I am not doing anything to help these animals when I volunteer at a shelter, adopt rescues (dogs and cats) and all the other things I mentioned??

Well what if I was to say "OMG, you only have 5 dogs? You should have 20 or else they're going to die!" That's outrageous.

You are saying the same thing over and over and I have no idea what your point is anymore!

We ALL know that dogs are killed everyday and we all do our parts to help that...so what IS YOUR POINT?

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by CrzyBritNAmerica

We ALL know that dogs are killed everyday and we all do our parts to help that...so what IS YOUR POINT?

I think the more prudent question is what are you doing other than cramming 5 dogs in a van? And how is putting 5 dogs in a van helping the problem anyways?

[thomasina]

Vanbum; What exactly is it, that YOU want us to do, that we aren't already doing. Sure I have purebred dogs from reputable breeders, however I also have rescues. Every time I rescue an animal, I make sure I rescue one that's not very likely to be adopted out. So I think many of us on this board are doing all we possibly can. Obviously we can't rescue all the dogs in need of homes ( eventhough we would like to) it's just not realistic. We own as many pets that we can afford to own, otherwise it's kind of pointless to have a bunch of animals and not being able to care for them properly.

[sillylilykitty]

vanbum- I just wanted you to know that I worked for a breeder, she breeds cats and dogs, and GUESS WHAT!! The cats, she actually is losing money on! She doesnt breed enough to break even but that doesnt bother her. The dogs, she hardly makes any profit at all, some years she ONLY breaks even! She NEVER advertises because she always has long waiting lists. She ships her animals all over the world, how people in Japan even know about her dogs? I have no idea but somehow they find out about them. She has been breeding for over 20 years.

The point is, there are responsible, reputable breeders out there who don't care about money. And why do you keep putting that picture of cats and dogs in barrels on posts? I know you put it up before, everyone KNOWS about the problem! you dont need to show a picture!!!

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by thomasina

Vanbum; What exactly is it, that YOU want us to do, that we aren't already doing. Sure I have purebred dogs from reputable breeders, however I also have rescues. Every time I rescue an animal, I make sure I rescue one that's not very likely to be adopted out. So I think many of us on this board are doing all we possibly can. Obviously we can't rescue all the dogs in need of homes ( eventhough we would like to) it's just not realistic. We own as many pets that we can afford to own, otherwise it's kind of pointless to have a bunch of animals and not being able to care for them properly.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I think the more prudent question is what are you doing other than cramming 5 dogs in a van? And how is putting 5 dogs in a van helping the problem anyways?

That's exactly right. I have one dog and two cats and at the moment that is all I can afford to have. If I had more at this time I wouldn't be able to give them above-adequate care as I do right now.

I think that's doing a part in helping with the over-population problem. I have as many animals (rescues) that I can afford to own and am able to take care of so that is ALL I can do to help the problem. As well as volunteering and passing on all the imformation I have to people who don't understand the problem.

So yeah, I do what I can to help.

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

CrazyBrit, I am one of your biggest fans.

Aww thanks! That's the sweetest thing ever!!

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Vanbum doesn't think any breeders are worthy. I think he believes that all dogs should be neutered so that eventually they will die out as a race and we will cease to enslave them.

After all, if you work your dog with schutzhund, field trials, herding trials, agility, you are enslaving them.

Never mind that they love to do it. Never mind that many would go crazy with out something to do. It's enslavement.

Now, if only YOU could live in a van and cram your five aging dogs in there then you would know what it was like to be a true rescuer.

Yes...only then.


If you can't tell, I'm just kidding. I just know that's what he's going to say. You can argue with him until you are blue in the face.

And I agree with you 100%...I'm SURE that is what vanbum will say. Well there's just no helping some people to understand... *throws up hands in defeat*

[Cassie Nova]

Guys, PLEASE.

There is one major point here- we want to save dogs. I did NOT create this thread to start an argument about breeding. I created it in hopes that SOMEONE could save this POOR, innocent dog and maybe another couple along the way. I did not want to see a bunch of dead animals in buckets, I did not want to see people arguing, and I did not want people getting their feelings hurt. I wanted to save a dog. Is that too much to ask? Can you guys not take this argument somewhere else? If not for yourselves, or for me, for this dog! He needs a home, and now.

Besides, you guys are all missing something:
Everyone has different opinions and arguing does nothing- it won't change anyone's opinion and it only upsets people. I can see a small debate, but this has turned into a huge bashing of one another! Please stop. I don't want to sound like a "back seat mod"....but seeing this really upset me.

And while you guys are sitting here arguing, this dog is on death row for things beyond his control....