Regarding dogs parents health etc

peznite · 11-20-2009, 08:39 AM

Do people say not to buy a dog without seeing how the parents are because of health / life expectancy. I mean for example if a female or male dog only lived till like 6-7 years old due to random illness (healthy until x point in time) and the female had pups, would the pups only live for that time? Can a puppy that was a "accident" from 2 random dogs that may get an illness that kills them before their average life expentence still live a long life - provided its got plenty of care obviously.

What about pups being resuced from puppy mills, their parents are probably living in harsh conditions and are probably getting 0 medical care so does this automatically mean the pups are going to be riddled with problems and wont be able to live a long life when in a proper home?

cshellenberger · 11-20-2009, 08:59 AM

Pups from random breedeings, puppy mills ect are more likely to have health problems that those from a breeding where the dogs are health tested. This is simply because carelessly bred dogs may have unseen health conditions, quite a few of which are breed specific. Now, that's not to say that you can't still end up with a sick dog from a great breeding, it just reduces the chances by a huge amount. Remember too that just like us, sometimes environmental factors can come into play in causing illness/injury.

I do look at the family history on the part of longevity of the parents and grands and, if info is avail the great grands. This, along with the health testing will give you a pretty good idea of how long your dog will live.

RaeganW · 11-20-2009, 10:23 AM

I think seeing the parents (especially the mother) is suggested because of temperament. Hopefully the breeder is doing health tests, which is a more reliable measure of health than visual examination of the parents by an untrained eye anyway. But if you have the chance to interact with the dam, then you get to see what kind of temperament she might pass on/teach the pups.

Keechak · 11-20-2009, 10:36 AM

and if you are dealing with a medium to small breed puppies and non of the grandparents are still alive. I would be very wary.

Dogstar · 11-20-2009, 11:08 AM

It depends.

Illness doesn't, in general, affect a dog's DNA. But both parents dying relatively young of illness would for me be a red flag since it might be an indicator of immune system problems. In short? In short, asking what the dogs in the pedigree generally die of is a good and useful thing to find out. (For example, in Lizzie's extended family, most of the dogs seem to die of complications from congestive heart failure between 15-17.) At the same time though, sometimes stuff just happens- for example, there was a corgi litter discussed on corgi L last year that the bitch died during a c-section and I believe the sire had been deceased for some years (it was a frozen semen AI breeding.) There were relatives of the mother and I think some offspring from the same sire that the puppy folks could have met, though.

As far as puppy mills, yes, puppies are at a much higher risk of health problems because in general, stuff like luxating patella, PRA, PDA, heart murmers, hip dysplasia, epilepsy won't prevent a dog from being fertile and siring or carrying puppies to term. (The dogs affected with those conditions will generally have shorter or less quality of life, but they won't die of the conditions.) Puppies from parents who have been screened for these conditions (not just 'my vet says they're healthy at their annual checkup'- many of the conditions mentioned above have to be specifically tested for and wouldn't be detected by symptoms or an annual health check unless they were very far progressed or very severe to begin with.) and are clear of them, as are their relatives, are at a lower risk of developing those conditions.

With randombred dogs (ie, true feral street dogs) things are a little different. PRA, PDA, heart murmers, hip dysplasia, epilepsy, etc - still won't generally kill a dog, but they may make him/her less able to survive, and overal weaker puppies probably won't survive to grow up. I woudl suspect that multi-generational randombred dogs probably have the best immune systems, though! :P

Spicy1_VV · 11-20-2009, 11:45 AM

Of course not death age of the parents isn't set for the pups. They could live twice as long or only half the age it depends on the situation and cause of death.

You also don't need to see the parents to know when they died/if they are still living or to look up there health scores.

Random need dogs are a bigger gamble, an accident would depend on parents. Mill dogs are probably more likely to have problems.

I like to see the parents to see their conformation for myself, physical condition/tone if I can meet them in person I can see how they behave, their general disposition.

Labsnothers · 11-21-2009, 01:36 PM

I agree it is important for temperament. Any good breeder retires their breeding stock long before it would die of old age.

Of course, seeing a healthy looking dog doesn't tell you how much trouble the owner went through finding the right food or what drugs it is taking to avoid problems.

Laurelin · 11-21-2009, 01:39 PM

I like to meet parents mainly for temperament however it is usually pretty unlikely the breeder will have both the mother and the father of the litter. Mia's breeder had both parents but none of my other dogs came from a litter where the father was owned by the breeder. So instead we got to meet the mother and see pictures of the father. I met a lot of their relatives and know them all well, which is nice for me. I know the entire line has the temperament I like.

Labsnothers · 11-23-2009, 08:44 AM

If they own both, you may want to walk away. On another site I see many questions from would be BYB's that sound like they are most concerned with how soon the money will be flowing in. I am tempted to answer ''No dog should be bred until the owner gets a clue.''

Note, this is in spite of having ''Breeding should be left to those not needing to ask simple, basic questions. Books have been written about it. Rather than ask me a question, start reading. Those unwilling to do the work it takes to produce quality puppies should spay/neuter their pets at 6 months. I will not answer questions that sound like a poorly prepared breeder.'' in my profile.

RaeganW · 11-23-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

If they own both, you may want to walk away. On another site I see many questions from would be BYB's that sound like they are most concerned with how soon the money will be flowing in. I am tempted to answer ''No dog should be bred until the owner gets a clue.''

Note, this is in spite of having ''Breeding should be left to those not needing to ask simple, basic questions. Books have been written about it. Rather than ask me a question, start reading. Those unwilling to do the work it takes to produce quality puppies should spay/neuter their pets at 6 months. I will not answer questions that sound like a poorly prepared breeder.'' in my profile.

I wouldn't necessarily walk away just because a breeder owns both parents. I feel a more important point to make is that it's not a red flag if they don't. I think there is a perception that a breeder should own both the parents, but depending on their breeding plan they probably do not. If they own both parents and there are other warning signs (no titles/evidence that these dogs should be bred, no health testing, there isn't a plan on how their pups are going to improve the breed, etc), then in conjunction with owning both parents I would walk away.

Your advice about reading books that will not judge you, as opposed to asking a forum which most definitely will, is spot on however.

Labsnothers · 11-23-2009, 02:24 PM

You are saying I shouldn't doubt people asking questions such as ''I just mated my black shepherd and i was wandering when i would know for sure if she is pregnant?''.

jesirose · 11-23-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

You are saying I shouldn't doubt people asking questions such as ''I just mated my black shepherd and i was wandering when i would know for sure if she is pregnant?''.

What the heck are you talking about? How is that relevant?

RaeganW · 11-23-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

You are saying I shouldn't doubt people asking questions such as ''I just mated my black shepherd and i was wandering when i would know for sure if she is pregnant?''.

No, I was agreeing with you on that part. In that people who don't know basic things and are asking on the internet should read a book first. What I meant was that when going to buy a puppy, the breeder owning both parents was not in and of itself a warning sign, unless paired with other red flags.

Dogstar · 11-23-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

I agree it is important for temperament. Any good breeder retires their breeding stock long before it would die of old age.

Of course, seeing a healthy looking dog doesn't tell you how much trouble the owner went through finding the right food or what drugs it is taking to avoid problems.

Two points you've made (in two posts, which I'm combining here) that I disagree with.

WHile it's obviously not an option to breed a bitch past middle age (or shouldn't be for anyone with common sense), an elderly stud dog is actually a huge asset to a breed. The chance to see more of his kids fully mature and certainty of his own longevity is priceless. With frozen semen breedings, this is very do-able in most breeds. (The dog I'm thinking of here is Carbon, BISS CH Coedwig's Carbon BLue, who is 15. My co-owned Carbon grandson just turned 9, and it's really need to get to see multiple generations of the extended family and see what the consistant strengths and weaknesses are.

ETA: The dog I'm hoping to breed Lizzie to (which will be a frozen semen breeding sinc ehe's on another continent) may be 10 by the time that litter actually happens, which is wonderful as far as I'm concerned - his oldest kids will be 8, so I'll have an idea how long they have taken to mature and we'll have the first set of senior health screen data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers View Post
If they own both, you may want to walk away. On another site I see many questions from would be BYB's that sound like they are most concerned with how soon the money will be flowing in. I am tempted to answer ''No dog should be bred until the owner gets a clue.''

This MAY be a red flag, but frequently, IMO, it's not. I've noticed that it seems to be more usual in some breeds than others for breeders to own their own stud dogs. I think MORE important is knowing WHY a breeder chose a certain stud dog, regardless of the owner. There need to be specific reasons, not just convienence. I know that past this generation in the GS, I'll probably end up importing and owning my own stud dogs to use on my own girls because I have somewhat different tastes in breed type than the other 3 breeders in the US.

RaeganW · 11-23-2009, 04:36 PM

When you use the abbreviation GS, what breed do you mean?

Dogstar · 11-23-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaeganW

When you use the abbreviation GS, what breed do you mean?

Oops, sorry. :P German Spitz (my girl is a mittel.)

Spicy1_VV · 11-23-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

If they own both, you may want to walk away. On another site I see many questions from would be BYB's that sound like they are most concerned with how soon the money will be flowing in. I am tempted to answer ''No dog should be bred until the owner gets a clue.''

That is non sense. Breeders don't have males simply to stud them out. They also have them for their own use.

cshellenberger · 11-24-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

If they own both, you may want to walk away.

Absolutely WRONG! Some of the best breedings can happen with in house breedings. There are far too many OTHER factors than whether a stud is in house or not.

RedyreRottweilers · 11-24-2009, 09:46 AM

I would want to look into why a breeder used an inhouse dog for the breeding.

IMO if a person is breeding a bitch numerous times to the same in house dog, they are not breeding for improvement, and I would want to look more closely at pedigree, etc.

When I am looking for a sire for a breeding, I make note of the strengths and weaknesses of my bitch. I look for a dog who is strong where she is weak, and who complements her strengths.

The likelihood of me finding the dog who complements her best in my own back yard are slim.

These days breeders have the choice of any dog on the globe with the advances in AI in dogs.

Sometimes the best dog might be standing right there. Sometimes the reasons for using the dog so nearby might not be the best. It is something that should be looked at on an individual basis.

Any good breeder can tell you immediately why they chose a particular dog for a certain breeding.