[HarleyQuinn]

Where is all the color coming from? Reds, tri colors, merles, all white, holy! It seems I am the only one around who still owns the typical black&white. I find all the colors beautiful. It seems to be growing in popularity.


I was talking to a neighbour the other day. We bumped into eachother both walking our dogs. All three of them became bestfriends and were playing together. He too owns a black and white female. He started talking to me about how nice both my dogs looked. Being a pet owner you can't help but beam with pride when someone calls your pet attractive. Don't pretend like you don't, I know we all do.

I am not one thats involved in the dog world. Owning border collies was not something I got into willingly but it is something I do enjoy now that I've stumbled into it. I always thought color was a good thing. Apparently Im wrong.

This guy is set in his ways. He thinks those colored dogs have no use being out there herding sheep with the rest of the more typical BC's. I told him that's foolish. I've met several random mutts that can herd better then any BC with a fine pedigree. To a dog their heritage doesn't matter. If they've have talent they have it.

He then started ranting about how Border Collies are meant to be all brains, not beauty. Sure, they are a nice looking breed but when it comes down to it's the brain that counts. So what does color matter to him then? He said breeding color is the new fad. Turning our beloved dogs into a fahsion statement. I thought he was being silly. If it was really the brains he cared about why does the coat matter then? If the dog can do what it was bred for then so be it. It's fur shouldn't matter.

I know where my two came from. Both parents work every day doing cattle driving and they do their jobs well. They are both black and white but they own a little red dog too. His owners never noticed he's red. He's the best at what he does. If only the old man could see this dog in action. Maybe then he'd understand he's judging a book by it's cover. That's doggy racism as far as most colored border collie owners are concered.

He huffed, and that was the end of our discussion. He called his dog in, I called my pair, and we smiled and went our own ways. So my question is is breeding colored dogs a big deal in our breed? Does it effect the brains of the dog? Or are people just worried that if we only breed for coat then the brains will suffer? I understand these dogs are meant to be quick as a whip in both mind and body, but whats so wrong with them having pretty markings too?

[Keno's Mom]

I like the colors - black/white, or red/white. BUT I know a lot of BC breeders who's dogs are WORKING dogs were not pleased when AKC let them be recognized for showing - because they felt it would eventually ruin the working dogs and they would turn into just show dogs.

I know its happened to the Irish Setters - many of them have all beauty and no brains for field work! And even in the labs, there is some concern that the show labs cannot do the field work they were bred for.

[tirluc]

i, too, am owned by BC's (4 of them) and they are all Bl/Wh.....this is just b/c that is the colour that i prefer.....however, the BC comes in many different colours and patterns and has since the beginning of the BC.....they all work (or don't work) just as well....colour has nothing to do w/ ability (unless you want to get into the "all whites can't herd" discussion that many believe to be true....but this has been proven wrong a few times already).....

the true working Border, IMO, is one of the MOST beautiful dogs to look at.....and i do believe that, if they keep breeding for looks (as the "Barbie" Collies are being bred for) they will eventually lose alot of what the breed is all about.....to me, any breed that is breed for function first and then looks is a far better looking animal....watching a herding dog herd, a bird dog hunt, a coursing (coarsing?) dog race, etc, etc,etc., is the more exhilirating then watching them "prance" around the ring for 20 min....and i also like the looks of the working dog, in general, better than the "ring" dogs.....

heres a site to go to to see the diversity of the Border Collie.....

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museu...ks_Health.html

maybe let this neighbor know about it to check out.....it might change his mind.....

[LoveMyYuffie]

I love my Border Collie, she is a tri colored.. Mostly Black and White.

But I think that all the colors are gorgeous. Heck, I LOVE the breed. My little pup is so smart, and beautiful.. I wouldn't trade her OR her color for the world

[Curbside Prophet]

Traditional herders whether they've thought about it or not, have always culled their working litter based on color. Color is/was thought to be an indication of purity, although this thought is usually baseless. You'll hear stories about how such and such a color will help the dog to blend in with the flock, along with other nonsense reasoning. As if the wolves couldn't make mince meat of dogs if they chose to do so, or discriminated dogs based on color. The only utility for color would be what was predetermined regionally, where the climate would dictate certain colors. Other than that, color is a human preference.

If you were to take two puppies of the same color from the same litter, and sent one to New York city, and left the other to learn from other herding dogs, there's no way in the world the dog in New York could ever live up to the herding abilities of the dog that remained with the cattle. The dog may still be as smart as a pistol, he may be the "right" color, he may have excellent lineage, but he'd still be a failure at herding and would have a difficult time closing the gap with any experienced herding dog. Much of a herding dog's brain is develop by its environment when it's really young.

Where I would agree with BC breeders in the slippery slope of AKC conformation is, if you select an animal only by form, size, and color, and don't keep them in the environment that made them successful as a breed, you lose some of the gene pool and evolution that make BC's great herding dogs. If I were to buy a herding dog, I might overlook the need for AKC conformation if a breeder were staying true to the dog's roots and tested their dogs in another arena amongst their peers.

[HarleyQuinn]

Originally Posted by tirluc

i, too, am owned by BC's (4 of them) and they are all Bl/Wh.....this is just b/c that is the colour that i prefer.....however, the BC comes in many different colours and patterns and has since the beginning of the BC.....they all work (or don't work) just as well....colour has nothing to do w/ ability (unless you want to get into the "all whites can't herd" discussion that many believe to be true....but this has been proven wrong a few times already).....

the true working Border, IMO, is one of the MOST beautiful dogs to look at.....and i do believe that, if they keep breeding for looks (as the "Barbie" Collies are being bred for) they will eventually lose alot of what the breed is all about.....to me, any breed that is breed for function first and then looks is a far better looking animal....watching a herding dog herd, a bird dog hunt, a coursing (coarsing?) dog race, etc, etc,etc., is the more exhilirating then watching them "prance" around the ring for 20 min....and i also like the looks of the working dog, in general, better than the "ring" dogs.....

heres a site to go to to see the diversity of the Border Collie.....

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museu...ks_Health.html

maybe let this neighbor know about it to check out.....it might change his mind.....

I like the black and white the best too. I enjoy looking at them but in the future I wouldn't mind adding one with color into the group.

You're right. Nothing is more beautiful then a dog doing work they were bred to do. It's stunning. I'm not a big fan of conformation showing. Just doesn't make any sense to me but I mean no offence to anyone who enjoys doing it. To each their own, right?

Next time I see him I think I will. He's talked to be about all his previous border collies. He did own a merle once. She was apparently an idiot and he didn't like her much. Maybe thats when these tall tales became reality to him?


I've actually never heard someone single out all whites before. Can you explain it to me? I'm a newb to the breed. My extent of knowledge about them is my two dogs and some reading I've done.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tirluc

colour has nothing to do w/ ability (unless you want to get into the "all whites can't herd" discussion that many believe to be true....but this has been proven wrong a few times already)

I'm sure an all white BC can herd just fine, but at the very least, if people insist on breeding all white BC's, they will eventually create pigment problems. You can avoid this by picking dogs with good pigment in the eyes, lips, and footpads, where blacker is better. Pink eyelids get sun burned, and pink foot pads are softer and wear out more easily. If you're traveling a long distance with your herd, a poorly pigmented dog will be crippled by sunburn. In this example, color has everything to do with ability.

[Wimble Woof]

Great info so far, I just want to comment that the CKC does not recognize the Border Collie, and IMO the breed is better off that way. There isnt a strict standard for height, weight, color coat ( long short, feathered) because really with all purebreds IMO it should be more of a focus on them doing their inherited jobs( or atleast having the ability to)
As said earlier Conformation Labs cant do the job they were origionally bred to do... this is prolly why so many breeds split off into their own subcategories.
The appearance difference in a field lab and a show lab is incredible... I would really hate to see that happen to BC's.

[Chloef_2799]

Hmm I have never seen an all white border collie. I love the merle colour and the red but IMO black and white is my favorite. Border collies are beautiful dogs but I do think that with a border collie it is about the brains. They were bred to be herding dogs and are known for their intelligence so for myself as well it is more about the smarts then the colour. Though I won't discriminate, a friend of mine has a beautiful merle female BC and she is SOOO smart it is eerie. She knows how to open the fridge and can open doors and has even learned how to un-lock a dead bolt!!! I do think that if people breed for colour that will eventually ruin the breed because that is not a proper breeding practise in my opinion. You should be breeding for health, temperament and breed characteristics which for BCs would include intelligence.
I have only met one border who I would call ugly but at the time he was covered in mud and burs. After a bath and good grooming he was as handsome as ever though and aside from him I have never met ANY dog I would consider ugly.

[MagicToller]

It's true, there has been an influx in different colored Border Collies..

Case in point:

http://www.bordercolliesociety.com/index_breedcolor.htm

Those Merles, Tri's and Sables have always run rampant in herding breeds though, and I think it's a little silly for someone to discriminate a breed simply because there is some trend running through it - but just because the dog is merle, doesn't make it any less of a worker. Now, if you begin to breed Low Drive Merles to other Low drive colors, then yes - then you've got a problem.

The Border Collie community has always faced many problems with the split in their breed (Work/Show), but I never thought of it as color wise, but work wise. There's a very hostile air between comformation BC people and Performance BC people, because the performance people say that some of those Border Collies in the C-Ring couldn't herd a damn sheep in their life - and I agree. I think fanciers of the breed should focus more on breeding for working ability as apposed to fussing about what color the dog is. Just because the black and white is the classic color, doesn't mean they are all superb working dogs. I have seen many a Border Collie resemble a fluffy potato because of it's "Barbie" coat and inability to work. After all, the Border Collie's fame of intelligence and its essance of the breed is based on its superb intelligence and free-thinking characteristics. How thinner the competition would be, if it would be required for all show BC's to pass a Herding Trial.

I agree to what you said about dogs and working ability, if it's there, that trait should be nurished and developed.. and not labeled or attributed to coloration.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If you were to take two puppies of the same color from the same litter, and sent one to New York city, and left the other to learn from other herding dogs, there's no way in the world the dog in New York could ever live up to the herding abilities of the dog that remained with the cattle. The dog may still be as smart as a pistol, he may be the "right" color, he may have excellent lineage, but he'd still be a failure at herding and would have a difficult time closing the gap with any experienced herding dog. Much of a herding dog's brain is develop by its environment when it's really young.

this is soooo not true.....why do you think that so many BC's gotten as pets end up in the shelters/rescues?....it's b/c the "city folk" don't know what to do w/ them.....the only thing that would hold true in this is if the dog that went to NYC was the low end on drive and the one kept for the ranch was high on drive.....switch the 2 around and it would be a whole different scenario.....you put the low drive dog on a ranch and that rancher would be placing it (or whatever) in a heartbeat, and the high drive one in the city had better have a job to do or he'll create one (but if that high drive one was in the city for, say, 2 yrs and then a rancher took it, it would learn quite quickly what to do).....when i look for my dogs i want one somewhere in between at this point as i have no sheep to herd but i need the drive for the goosing/agility/etc.

I'm sure an all white BC can herd just fine, but at the very least, if people insist on breeding all white BC's, they will eventually create pigment problems. You can avoid this by picking dogs with good pigment in the eyes, lips, and footpads, where blacker is better. Pink eyelids get sun burned, and pink foot pads are softer and wear out more easily. If you're traveling a long distance with your herd, a poorly pigmented dog will be crippled by sunburn. In this example, color has everything to do with ability.

again, it's not colour of coat that makes that difference (i'll explain the white theory in a bit)...it's the skin pigmentation, and i have seen all white coats on many species of animals that still have dark pigmentation....we're not talking about albino traits, just white coats like the Samoyed.....

the breeding of dogs should be done on basics.....the dog should conform to what function he was bred to do....the colour of eyes and coat, th markings, the way the tail is (crooked, straight, etc.) should be secondary....and in the tail aspect, a Border uses it's tail as a "balance" to a degree, so a tail that curled over it's back would be a disservice to the dog, if you know what i mean......but, as the saying goes "FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION" and that is the way they should be judged....none of my BC's move like the Barbie Collies i have seen in the ring....they are low, and slink all the time they are moving faster than a walk (even my 2 w/ HD move this way to a degree)...

ok, the "white theory"....it has been the belief of some that an all white BC was not a good herding dog as they tend to "blend in" w/ the sheep and that the sheep don't have the respect for them as they would w/ a dog of colour....however, this theory wouldn't really hold up b/c not all sheep are white....the ability of the Border to work is his drive, his intensity and the use of his "eye".....if you have a high drive, intense dog w/ good eye, of any
colour, they are going to be able to do the job well (of course, they need a good trainer/handler, as well)........

another thought was that the ears being erect gives too much of a "wolfish" appearance and tend to frighten the sheep--ears set low (dropped) doesn't give the dog enuff of the intense look for them to (properly) move the sheep...thus the reason for the semi erect ears.....

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tirluc

this is soooo not true.....why do you think that so many BC's gotten as pets end up in the shelters/rescues?....it's b/c the "city folk" don't know what to do w/ them.....the only thing that would hold true in this is if the dog that went to NYC was the low end on drive and the one kept for the ranch was high on drive.....switch the 2 around and it would be a whole different scenario.....you put the low drive dog on a ranch and that rancher would be placing it (or whatever) in a heartbeat, and the high drive one in the city had better have a job to do or he'll create one (but if that high drive one was in the city for, say, 2 yrs and then a rancher took it, it would learn quite quickly what to do).....when i look for my dogs i want one somewhere in between at this point as i have no sheep to herd but i need the drive for the goosing/agility/etc.

I think you're overlooking the effect and importance of imprinting. Whether the dog is of high drive or low drive, neither would be an effective herder as a dog with timely imprinting. That's the point I'm trying to make, and in my example I have to assume both dogs are of equal drive, it's hypothetical, although even amongst the same litter this isn't always true.

Originally Posted by tirluc

again, it's not colour of coat that makes that difference (i'll explain the white theory in a bit)...it's the skin pigmentation, and i have seen all white coats on many species of animals that still have dark pigmentation....we're not talking about albino traits, just white coats like the Samoyed.....

I think we agree here on the pigment, however, my point is if a breeder selects only for white coat, the breeder is gambling on the development of inferior pigment for extended herding sessions. That's the only point I was trying to make there - call it a clarification.

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by MagicToller

There's a very hostile air between comformation BC people and Performance BC people, because the performance people say that some of those Border Collies in the C-Ring couldn't herd a damn sheep in their life - and I agree. I think fanciers of the breed should focus more on breeding for working ability as apposed to fussing about what color the dog is. Just because the black and white is the classic color, doesn't mean they are all superb working dogs. I have seen many a Border Collie resemble a fluffy potato because of it's "Barbie" coat and inability to work. After all, the Border Collie's fame of intelligence and its essance of the breed is based on its superb intelligence and free-thinking characteristics.

What really gets me irritated is... why is it only the BC community that is so adiment for their breed to excel at their primary purpose?
Why arent the lab, spaniel, Golden ect. people striving for a great field dog?
I just dont understand why its acceptable for some breeds to have thier natural instincts bred out for the sake of looks????
It really ticks me off to be quite honest.
IMO, my honest opinion, conformation should be second to field or other competitions which strive for the breeds to be able to carry out the tasks in which they were bred for...

[MagicToller]

this is soooo not true.....why do you think that so many BC's gotten as pets end up in the shelters/rescues?....it's b/c the "city folk" don't know what to do w/ them..

There is a difference between energy levels, and working ability. Just because the dog is going berzerk in some New York apartment, doesn't mean it has herding ability. Nature VS. Nurture - you decide.

What really gets me irritated is... why is it only the BC community that is so adiment for their breed to excel at their primary purpose?
Why arent the lab, spaniel, Golden ect. people striving for a great field dog?
I just dont understand why its acceptable for some breeds to have thier natural instincts bred out for the sake of looks????
It really ticks me off to be quite honest.
IMO, my honest opinion, conformation should be second to field or other competitions which strive for the breeds to be able to carry out the tasks in which they were bred for...

Oh boy, have you opened up a can of worms. Really, everyone should be asking this, because I can't agree more with you.

It's actually a rather ironic paradox:

Dogs were bred and their standards were established based on their purpose and working ability, but many of the dogs who fit their standards to the tee couldn't perform what was dictated of them hundreds of years ago - and people are breeding out of the standard to achieve desired traits for work.

How interesting.

The Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever Club of America is quite scrupulous when it comes to this subject. Club Championships can (and will be) denied until the dog can complete and pass a hunting trial, say Junior Hunter (JH) for example. Seldom will you find Tollers in the conformation ring who are not involved in some sort of performance event, because many of (if not all of) us do not put the tedious attention into getting the CH on our dogs as we would, say - field titles, agility, obedience, etc. I think other breeds and their fanciers can really benefit if they took on attitudes like these. But that's just me.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

What really gets me irritated is... why is it only the BC community that is so adiment for their breed to excel at their primary purpose?
Why arent the lab, spaniel, Golden ect. people striving for a great field dog?
I just dont understand why its acceptable for some breeds to have thier natural instincts bred out for the sake of looks????
It really ticks me off to be quite honest.
IMO, my honest opinion, conformation should be second to field or other competitions which strive for the breeds to be able to carry out the tasks in which they were bred for...

i think you're right in getting P.O.'d.....but i think what has happened there is that the Border is still relatively new to the AKC (notice i don't say show ring) and the others have been there for quite some time.....i think when any breed first gets into the conformation end of competition, the people that have them get quite irrate about taking away what they were bred for....but then they come to the conclusion that they're beating a dead horse and "go w/ the flow".....but i think alot of the new ones (breeds) coming in will have their "champions" for them for a bit longer cuz people have seen what has happened to the other breeds and will fight harder to maintain the true breed....

and CP and MT, i have read of many and talked to many breeders that have taken BC's from "bad" situations (where they are driving the owners quite mad b/c of their herding drive and have put them on sheep/cattle and they have become excellent working dogs and quite content......and i'm not talking of energy level, i'm talking working ability/drive.....but, it's the work/drive that makes the "energy level" so frustrating if not put to use....and many don't need to necessarily be herding but you better find some sort of an outlet (agility, sledding, flyball, etc.) for them or they will find it themselves, and i can guarantee the person won't like it.....
this is true of most breeds (that's why many people have their dogs destroying their homes/yards, escaping/running, chasing cars, getting aggressive, etc)....b/c they don't understand that you can't take an active dog and expect them to be couch potatoes......

to me Border Collies are the ultimate...i will never have anything else (except maybe a mutt)....and i'm sure everyone feels that way about the breed they have

[HarleyQuinn]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

What really gets me irritated is... why is it only the BC community that is so adiment for their breed to excel at their primary purpose?
Why arent the lab, spaniel, Golden ect. people striving for a great field dog?
I just dont understand why its acceptable for some breeds to have thier natural instincts bred out for the sake of looks????
It really ticks me off to be quite honest.
IMO, my honest opinion, conformation should be second to field or other competitions which strive for the breeds to be able to carry out the tasks in which they were bred for...

That bothers me too but getting into each on its own is an individual arguement that you'll butt heads with many on. Personally I do not like conformation labs. Field labs for the win.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tirluc

and CP and MT, i have read of many and talked to many breeders that have taken BC's from "bad" situations (where they are driving the owners quite mad b/c of their herding drive and have put them on sheep/cattle and they have become excellent working dogs and quite content.

Imagine what those bad situation BC's could have been in ability had they been nurtured in the herding community. Drive is only one component of being an excellent herding dog. Talk to any herder (not a breeder), and they will tell you that without nurture, the nature is diminished. Nature or nutrure? It is both.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

What really gets me irritated is... why is it only the BC community that is so adiment for their breed to excel at their primary purpose?
Why arent the lab, spaniel, Golden ect. people striving for a great field dog?
I just dont understand why its acceptable for some breeds to have thier natural instincts bred out for the sake of looks????
It really ticks me off to be quite honest.
IMO, my honest opinion, conformation should be second to field or other competitions which strive for the breeds to be able to carry out the tasks in which they were bred for...

They aren't the only community. Many sighthound people will tell you that a sighthound must be able to perform true to it's purpose. And, of course, you have people breeding greyhounds to win on the track...where conformation is not important...function and temperment ARE.

JMHO, but in working or performance breeds, the only titles that matter are the ones earned on the field. Show titles are nice, but pretty much irrelevant in my eyes.

[Wimble Woof]

I had no intentions of opening up a can of worms on that statement, but so many of us and other dog people are so quick to ask right away about conformation titles when someone pipes up with breeding questions, honestly breeding is not a task that ever should be taken lightly and its good that we are throwing that out there in hopes of discouragement. However, I as a BC owner ( first timer at that) and one who was SO unprepared for the dogs intelligence, I could have easily become another statistic on a rehomed BC that was driving their owner nuts with destructive behaviour. But Im more stubborn than any dog lol. I couldnt allow myself to be defeated by Meiko. Although its a constant battle trying to keep him mentally stimulated I must say, but it keeps me on my toes trying to find new activities for him.

Back to my point though, conformation is important, by all means, however, I just dont understand why the dogs "MUST" be a certain look or size and so on. Would be nice to see more "natural abilities" testing and stuff like that before breeding. I dont see what a CH in front of the dogs name really has to do with its inherited traits.???!?!?
I would prefer to get a purebred out of working lines, any dog. That way the breed description may be more fitting ( temperment, energy levels ect)
I think we are getting to involved and changing breeds around a bit too much. I mean, English Bulldogs for example, majority of them can not even reproduce naturally any more, whether its the mating part, or the birthing, it has become a man made breed. To me, conformation breeding (to fit a rediculous standard) is much to blame for this.

Sorry to offend any show people or breeders, on one hand I think its wonderful the time and energy that they spend conforming to the standards and breeding the best possible to the best possible, I blame the standard itself. Causing some breeds to "appear" a certain way which makes them unable to preform their original tasks.

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

JMHO, but in working or performance breeds, the only titles that matter are the ones earned on the field. Show titles are nice, but pretty much irrelevant in my eyes.

EXACTLY what im trying to say! Thanks!!!

I couldnt think of another class of dogs who fit into my ramblings, but YES , sight hounds, scent hounds, ALL hounds for that matter as well should be able to preform.

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Imagine what those bad situation BC's could have been in ability had they been nurtured in the herding community. Drive is only one component of being an excellent herding dog. Talk to any herder (not a breeder), and they will tell you that without nurture, the nature is diminished. Nature or nutrure? It is both.

what do you mean "could have been".....i'm talking dogs that have been rehomed into working dogs and outstanding ones at that.....yes, nurture has something to do w/ it....but w/out the nature being there, you can nurture all you want and not get the results.....and you can nurture the nature in the right dogs even when they are older....this is why a good breeder will place certain pups in certain homes (they find out what the person wants and places accordingly) and not let the people choose--b/c they know which pups are going to have the right drive or lack thereof.....i've seen BC's w/ "no nature" and no matter how hard you try you won't get anymore results in training for herding than you would from an Afghan....it's just not there, and you can see it from the time they are "wee bairns"......