[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by KaseyT

You got me on that one? Are such studies generally done on dog breeding?

Some definitely are. There have been a lot of studies on the merle gene and inheritance for example.

[KaseyT]

Originally Posted by trumpetjock

Yeah, for coat colour in most breeds you can get the exact genetic inheritance. What I'm looking for is something like this: http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

I'm going to grad school for genetics, so I'm genuinely interested in this topic.

I think this kind of study assumes multiple generations of like varieties (breeds) and would not be useful for first generation breeding, but I'm not sure.

[upendi'smommy]

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

They breed them because they are in demand. People want them.

I dont like the way doodles look most of the time.

I have a (miniature poodle x maltese) + (standard poodle x maltese)

F1B Labradoodles are fetching $1000 mail order for non shedding coat:

http://www.nextdaypets.com/directory...4ffb-1bb1.aspx

We've already established that 'being in demand' isn't a good reason for breeding.

And anyone willing to order from 'nextdaypets' needs to seriously reconsider getting any dog.

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by KaseyT

I think this kind of study assumes multiple generations of like varieties (breeds) and would not be useful for first generation breeding, but I'm not sure.

Judging from how the F1 generation are generally all the same coat pattern (right?) and the F2 have the most variation, I would think it's probably be incomplete dominance.

Basically this means that when you cross your golden (Homozygous for wavy coat which we'll call WW for simplicity), with your poodle (Homozygous for curly coat, which we'll call CC), your F1 generation will all be heterozygous (WC), showing an intermediate coat quality.

If you cross two F1 (WC x WC), you would get 25% WW (goldenlike wavy coat), 50% WC (the desired intermediate) and 25% CC (poodle like curly coat). Does that sound about right?

If you cross and F1 back to a poodle (WC X CC) you would get 50% WC (intermediate) and 50% CC (curly), which I would assume would be a much more desirable spread.


Is the aim to get the intermediate coat, or the full curly coat like the poodle? If the aim is just to get a full curly coat, I don't know why standard poodles aren't being used as guide dogs... I've seen some really amazing obedience poodles.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by trumpetjock

Judging from how the F1 generation are generally all the same coat pattern (right?) and the F2 have the most variation, I would think it's probably be incomplete dominance.

Basically this means that when you cross your golden (Homozygous for wavy coat which we'll call WW for simplicity), with your poodle (Homozygous for curly coat, which we'll call CC), your F1 generation will all be heterozygous (WC), showing an intermediate coat quality.

If you cross two F1 (WC x WC), you would get 25% WW (goldenlike wavy coat), 50% WC (the desired intermediate) and 25% CC (poodle like curly coat). Does that sound about right?

If you cross and F1 back to a poodle (WC X CC) you would get 50% WC (intermediate) and 50% CC (curly), which I would assume would be a much more desirable spread.


Is the aim to get the intermediate coat, or the full curly coat like the poodle? If the aim is just to get a full curly coat, I don't know why standard poodles aren't being used as guide dogs... I've seen some really amazing obedience poodles.

I can't verify this or explain why this could be true but the guide people told me that they had a 1/12 success rate with standard poodles and a 1/6 success rate with the australian labradoodles.

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I can't verify this or explain why this could be true but the guide people told me that they had a 1/12 success rate with standard poodles and a 1/6 success rate with the australian labradoodles.

I guess if poodles made better guide dogs than labs, we'd see more poodles leading the blind eh?

Are australian labradoodles breeding true, coat wise? If so, is it the intermediate or the full curly coat?

edit -- answered my own question with a google search! looks like the aussie labradoodles are breeding true for the intermediate coat type. Quite interesting.

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I can't verify this or explain why this could be true but the guide people told me that they had a 1/12 success rate with standard poodles and a 1/6 success rate with the australian labradoodles.

Wow and Poodles are so smart too.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I dunno, you'd have to ask the breeder. They were breeding cattle dogs and that's about as much as I know- bc/kelpie/'bulldog'. I talked to someone doing kelpie x bc though and I assume it's a similar thing. They found bcs to be a little too soft for what they needed so I'm sure that's the idea behind adding a 'harder' breed.

I can't remember if you are on the pit bull forum (I know some people here are) but I remember someone saying a person they knew had ACD/Airedale/Pit Bull crosses for cattle I believe. Very odd mix but it got the job done.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by trumpetjock

Is the aim to get the intermediate coat, or the full curly coat like the poodle? If the aim is just to get a full curly coat, I don't know why standard poodles aren't being used as guide dogs... I've seen some really amazing obedience poodles.

I don't really get this either. At the risk of sounding really ignorant, why not just use poodles for service dogs? It seems to me that they would make great service dogs, and all the benefits of doodles apply even more to them.

Is it just because people don't really like the way they look, or the way people assume they look based on the show cuts that they see in pictures?

[Laurelin]

I would assume it has something to do with the personality difference between poodles and labs with the different success rates. I wish I could find stats to back that up though.

I lurk a couple of pit bull forums on occasion, but I don't belong to them. That is an interesting cross though! From the cattle people I've spoken to they need a harder type dog than many modern herding lines which tend to focus on sheep trials. Hence the variety of crossbreeds working cattle. The favorite seems to be either bc/kelpie or hangin' tree dogs.

I think I've also heard of airedale/dobe crosses being used for bitework too. And of course malinois crosses are often used for that kind of stuff too.

Originally Posted by canteloupe

I don't really get this either. At the risk of sounding really ignorant, why not just use poodles for service dogs? It seems to me that they would make great service dogs, and all the benefits of doodles apply even more to them.

Is it just because people don't really like the way they look, or the way people assume they look based on the show cuts that they see in pictures?

Like I posted up above, when I asked why not just use poodles, they stated they had a 1/12 success rate with poodles and a 1/6 success rate with the australian labradoodles. If that's true, then I could see why you'd want to use doodles over poodles because that's a significant difference in success rates. But that's just one organization's reply to that of course.

[spanielorbust]

Just in regards to coat types, and studies, not a lot of concrete work has been done.

This has been explained to me on the Canine Genetics list.

There is a gene identified as 'Wh' (and the recessive is 'wh'). This is called the bearded or bearding gene.

Wh is incompletely dominant, so that 'Wh/wh' can have some bearding all the way up to lots of bearding.

Wh/Wh is bearded and influences the l/l (long coat) loci, so that coats continuously grow.

"wh/wh" is smooth faced or non-bearded.

wh/wh pairs well with L/L,(short coat) L/l, (short coat but the one l can mean a bit more length) or l/l (long coat-with other unknown modifiers this can be anywhere from medium to super-long).

'Wh/Wh' or 'Wh/wh' have unpredictable influences when in existance with L/L (short coats).

An example of the unpredictable influences of the dominant 'Wh' with the dominant L can be seen in the coat type variations of the Jack Russell Terriers, which have 'Wh/Wh' and 'Wh/wh'and 'wh/wh' (smooth coated) in their breed, but with the shorter coat fixed at (L/L).

A Poodle is fixed l/l, and 'Wh/Wh'.

A Lab is fixed L/L and 'wh/wh'.

A Golden Retriever is fixed l/l and 'wh/wh'.

A Cocker Spaniel is fixed l/l and 'wh/wh'.

This is why the F1 Labrador Retriever x Poodle crosses have so much variation in their coat types, as opposed to Cocker Spaniel x Poodles, and Golden Retriever x Poodles, which have the slight advantage of being fixed at l/l, just like the Poodle is.

Undercoat is also at play, as Poodles have a single coat. Every F1 cross I've ever had my hands on, that involved just one parent with an undercoat, has also had an undercoat. I don't know if it is a single locus dominant or if undercoating works on many loci.

The F1 offspring of Poodles crossed with other single, long coated breeds have the most predictable coat types, as there is no undercoat to deal with. The offspring's genotype, on these two loci, would be consistently "l/l,Wh/wh" and of course without undercoat - just one allele different than the Poodles. A second generation backcrossed to a Poodle (3/4 Poodle) would have half the pups with the same 'l/l,Wh/Wh' genotype as the Poodle on those two loci.

I met a Cavalier x Poodle last year, and indeed it was a non-shedder (according to owner) and there was no undercoat. Personally, I don't like a bearded face, so it wouldn't be my way to go.

This is probably why the ancestors to the poodle (single coated) and the ancestors to the Maltese and some Bichon breeds (single coated) were easily and successfully crossed into and out of each others landraces. Some dog historians believe the King Charles Spaniel (single coated) recieved their black, black/tan and ruby coats this way (from curly coated water spaniels). In turn, it is accepted that the European Toy Spaniels (probably single coated as Papillons are) were part of the make up of many of the non-shedding breeds we have today - (Havanese, Bichon Frise etc.)

-------------------------

Have just done a long search for the proper representative letter for the bearded/smooth face gene. (I think it once was U. I knew they changed it and I couldn't remember what to.) It is not U anymore but "Wh", with the recessive then represented by "wh". I truly don't know if there is an official agreement yet on what the proper representative letters should be, but those I know that talk on this stuff are using 'Wh' now.

[trumpetjock]

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for!

[spanielorbust]

Originally Posted by canteloupe

I don't really get this either. At the risk of sounding really ignorant, why not just use poodles for service dogs? It seems to me that they would make great service dogs, and all the benefits of doodles apply even more to them.

Is it just because people don't really like the way they look, or the way people assume they look based on the show cuts that they see in pictures?

Canteloupe, to me it would be very obvious the reason. The Poodle temperament is not as patient or soft as the labs, or many of the other breeds it is commonly crossed with.

I know some Poodles well. I have a neighbor with two miniature poodles. She loves her guys. I know three Standard Poodles very, very well, as I have a friend who adores the breed. I find them all sharp (more intelligence than I like). Their reactions are quick. An "edgy" air resides around them, even when they a loafing about. Are they tollerable and can I find affection for them? . . . well yes, as I have dog sat for all five of these dogs. Would I choose a lab or golden or cocker over them? . . . without a bit of a doubt. Would I gamble the mix rather than accept the full bred Poodle IF I had an allergy difficulty . . . probably, IF a breeder knew what they were doing I'd look at an older puppy from a program that knew the coat type differences in the pups they were producing.

So it has nothing to do with the coat. Some people don't have a lot of like for the poodle temperament.

Trumpetjack, you are welcome.

[Labsnothers]

Well as long as some come out low dander, you can always train the rest for those without allergy problems.

I know part of the reason for Lab/Golden crosses is to have some puppies with the Golden personality when you are short Goldens. If none of your Goldens come in season, breed some of the Labs to Goldens. The mixture will include some more Golden like ones. They all tend to the Lab coat. same with Flat Coat crosses.

[spanielorbust]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Well as long as some come out low dander, you can always train the rest for those without allergy problems.

I know part of the reason for Lab/Golden crosses is to have some puppies with the Golden personality when you are short Goldens. If none of your Goldens come in season, breed some of the Labs to Goldens. The mixture will include some more Golden like ones. They all tend to the Lab coat. same with Flat Coat crosses.

If both breeds are Wh/wh (non-bearded or smooth faced), the short coat is dominant to long, (L/L is dominant to l/l) so all the F1 pups will be L/l and be sporting a short coat.

I have read before about temperament improvement in F1 crosses, and that being the reason they had better success rate as guide dogs.

I googled and found these links:



http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...58787806000256

In total, 2033 Labrador retrievers (LR), golden retrievers (GR), German shepherds (GS) and Labrador retriever/golden retriever crosses (LGX) were included in the study. Of all dogs, 39% had been passed back during their training, and 56% had graduated as guide dogs. In general, females had a lower chance to be passed back than males, except for GS and LGX. Overall, GS had the highest chance to be passed back during their training. LGX had the highest, and GS the lowest, probability for graduating as guide dogs.

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/fileadmi...s_Breeding.doc

Cross-Breeding to Improve Temperament:

Since the start of the breeding programme in the 1960s, the success rates of the pure breeds has risen steadily, although credit for this must be shared with the puppy walking scheme. Cross-breeding the Labrador with the Golden Retriever is now achieving even better results, producing dogs that combine the tolerance of the Labrador with some of the sensitivity of the Golden Retriever. Breed specialists were generally opposed to deliberate cross breeding, but the arguments against it are largely irrelevant in the case of guide dogs because the animals are always neutered. In the past, second crosses have been tried by keeping some of the first crosses as breeding stock. However, this was stopped when it became evident that the result was an increase in problems of temperament.


SOB

Have just done a long search for the proper representative letter for the bearded/smooth face gene. It is not U as I originally labelled it, but "Wh", with the recessive then represented by "wh" (I think it once was U. I knew they changed it and I couldn't remember what to.)