[chrisn6104]

Interesting show if you have not seen it.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=44215931

Makes you (at least me) think about buying a so called "purebred dog"
I don't think all people showing dogs do this but seems to me there are a lot of people at the "top" level are the very type of people in this video. The GSD looked very sad and are top show dogs.
Crazy and sad the way some of these dogs have taken shape over time.

[Rottieluv]

All dogs are being bred away from what they started out as. Rottweilers use to have smaller (though still large) heads and didn't have stumps for a face like they do now. If you look up stuff about the breed years ago you can find stuff about that. I think breeders need to start worrying (and most breeders do) about the animals health. And start breeding the they way they are ment to look, not how you want them to look.

[Michiyo-Fir]

Oh I've seen this before! And loved it!

I do agree a lot of dog breeds are being exaggerated now and the working counterparts of the show dogs don't look anything like that. But I think good breeders will spend teh time and money to DNA/health test their dogs to ensure that the breed is healthy as well as conforming to breed standards.

The cavalier one scared me the most. Right after watching it, I wanted to immediately take Truffles to a vet and get everything checked out. But so far, she seems to be fine. No health issues. Neither does our other 2 purebred dogs have any issues at all so I'm not that worried really.

Plus quite a lot of mutts have a lot of health problems as well because they did come from purebred dogs at one point. Especially badly bred ones because good breeders will not randomly let their dogs run around to breed with other dogs. So I think either way, if you get a dog you should be aware of the issues that it's prone to.

[MoosMom]

SO I think this video does a great job raising the question " What is a well bred dog?"
It appears that most dogs are not being bred for their working qualities any longer, but for vanity. A pretty GSD isn't going to be able to preform the same tasks as a working GSD or "out of standard" dog. Very interesting, thank you for posting

[RedyreRottweilers]

Which of you breeds or shows dogs?

How many dog shows have any of you attended? What about performance events?

Do you believe everything the media spoon feeds you, or do you have a brain to think for yourselves?

This little piece of "journalism" is straight from the Animal Rights agenda, and they have you thinking just the way they want you to.

At this rate, companion dogs will be a thing of the past within my lifetime.

Originally Posted by Rottieluv

All dogs are being bred away from what they started out as.

Can you help me by pointing me to your research that indicates this?

Originally Posted by Rottieluv

Rottweilers use to have smaller (though still large) heads and didn't have stumps for a face like they do now.

What do you call a "stump" for a face? A correct Rottweiler head is 60% backskull and 40% muzzle.

[MoosMom]

I will raise my hand and say I DO NOT BREED nor do I show and I NEVER NEVER want to get into such complex matters. Kudos to the breeders that are doing their best for the breed. While this documentary is clearly done by an animal rights agenda, it doesn't have to be taken literally word for word, they still bring up a goods points to ponder, even if they are only points that would be truly understood by those in the professional show world. Also we should keep in mind there was no footage or stats on dogs here in the US.

The biggest thing that stood out to me in this was the inability of the judge and breeders for the basset hound to explain the reason and need for "furnishings" All that extra skin all over the dog. The only explanation given was something along the lines of " that's what the judge is looking for" While I am not a breeder I DO think any trait you are breeding into a dog for a REASON needs to be more than " that's what's being looked for". The WHY and HOW this benefits the breed should have been stated. PERIOD.

Breed standards will tell you why the trait is looked for and what purpose it relates to.

This is from the AKC website describing the coat of the Basset Hound

Coat
"The coat is hard, smooth, and short, with sufficient density to be of use in all weather. The skin is loose and elastic. A distinctly long coat is a disqualification"


The skin is loose and elastic, doesn't say anywhere that it should be hanging on the dog in rolls. And yes I know the the documentary was from Europe and the same standards may not apply, but if a judge is going to pick lose and hanging skin as a noble trait they need to back up their reasons. If not, then the traits will start being bred in and could make for disaster later.

So all in all it was really about breeder ethics and making sure the breeders are really doing the right thing. So hopefully our breeders here in America don't try to skimp out on what's healthy for the breeds they have passion in, and continue to actually preform tests on their stock and won't turn a blind eye to an issue and breed it anyways.

Redyre, I have read your posts, seen your website, watched the webcam and it is VERY obvious that you love the breed and are truly doing it for the advancement of what you love. KUDOS!

[Pai]

There are many true things in Pedigree Dogs Exposed. A lot of the 'old guard' still hold very outdated beliefs. However, one thing to keep in mind, is that the UK has been under very strict quarantine laws for decades, and therefore gets very little new blood. It's hard to ship dogs or even frozen semen into the country. The genetic bottleneck, therefore, is much worse there than it is most anywhere else. If anything, it shows the extreme worst that can happen under a closed registry system.

The purebred world is not 100% bad, or 100% good. There is a LOT that can be improved and changed, but also, there are MANY breeders that spend thousands of dollars funding scientific research into helping their dog's health. The lady who made PDE admitted she left out talking about those good things, because her point was only to point out the worst that was happening. If anything, it's supposed to be a wake-up call for breeders to not accept some things that have been accepted without question for too long (like closed registries and cetain extreme breed fashions).

The skin is loose and elastic, doesn't say anywhere that it should be hanging on the dog in rolls. And yes I know the the documentary was from Europe and the same standards may not apply, but if a judge is going to pick lose and hanging skin as a noble trait they need to back up their reasons. If not, then the traits will start being bred in and could make for disaster later.

So all in all it was really about breeder ethics and making sure the breeders are really doing the right thing. So hopefully our breeders here in America don't try to skimp out on what's healthy for the breeds they have passion in, and continue to actually preform tests on their stock and won't turn a blind eye to an issue and breed it anyways.

If you look at modern day hunting-bred Bassets, they do not have so much skin (because really, it is not useful in any way). The extra rolls are basically entirely because of show ring fashion.

[Rottieluv]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

Which of you breeds or shows dogs?

How many dog shows have any of you attended? What about performance events?

Do you believe everything the media spoon feeds you, or do you have a brain to think for yourselves?

This little piece of "journalism" is straight from the Animal Rights agenda, and they have you thinking just the way they want you to.

At this rate, companion dogs will be a thing of the past within my lifetime.



Can you help me by pointing me to your research that indicates this?



What do you call a "stump" for a face? A correct Rottweiler head is 60% backskull and 40% muzzle.

Have you ever seen any pictures of the old rottweilers? A lot of stuff i've read and a lot of breeders, and people that show their rotties have said the are starting to get away from the standerds. The ugly ones with 2 inch muzzles and head way to big for their body, that are starting to look more like bull dogs are the ones i'm talking about. Why are getting so pissy about that? No one here was attacking you. Its not like i'm say you have poorly bred dogs. I'm just saying that a lot of breeds, even less popular ones like rottweilers are getting away from what they started as. And how dare you act like everyone on here is a mindless TV zombie? Of course the people that made that are finding the most out there cases they can to make it look worse than what it is, but they are atleast putting it out there you really need to do your homework before buying a dog from someone who claims to be a great show dog. There are a lot of people out there that are breeding purebeeds for profit and not taking the time to make sure they have healthy dogs. No one is saying they need to get rid of all purebed dogs. You should have tried to debate this, not throw a hissy fit.

[Pai]

Coincidentally, the APGAW has just released their report in response to Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I think their ideas for various reforms (which include increased veterinary collaboration with breed clubs) are generally very good. I've only read the first 1/3 of it so far.

[Dozi]

Originally Posted by chrisn6104

Interesting show if you have not seen it.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=44215931

Makes you (at least me) think about buying a so called "purebred dog"
I don't think all people showing dogs do this but seems to me there are a lot of people at the "top" level are the very type of people in this video. The GSD looked very sad and are top show dogs.
Crazy and sad the way some of these dogs have taken shape over time.

This is why it's so important to make sure you do your research when it comes to buying a puppy and not just buy from any breeder.
There are many breeders out there that do extensive health tests on their dogs to make sure that genetic diseases are not passed on.

[Equinox]

Originally Posted by MoosMom

I will raise my hand and say I DO NOT BREED nor do I show and I NEVER NEVER want to get into such complex matters. Kudos to the breeders that are doing their best for the breed.

^
That.

The matters of responsibility vs. irresponsibility and ethics and what type of dog to breed and what type not to breed and sacrificing temperament for structure or structure for temperament and whelping and breeding in general are such a complex matters that I don't know how breeders do it.

You really have to admire the great breeders out there and what they do for the dog world.

And you really got to hate those poor breeders and bad owners out there who are a cause to the deterioration of dogs.

A healthy, well bred, well tempered Rottweiler or GSD isn't worse than an "old styled" and well bred Rottweiler or GSD...

[Dozi]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

Which of you breeds or shows dogs?
How many dog shows have any of you attended? What about performance events?
Do you believe everything the media spoon feeds you, or do you have a brain to think for yourselves?
This little piece of "journalism" is straight from the Animal Rights agenda, and they have you thinking just the way they want you to.
At this rate, companion dogs will be a thing of the past within my lifetime.
Can you help me by pointing me to your research that indicates this?
What do you call a "stump" for a face? A correct Rottweiler head is 60% backskull and 40% muzzle.

I've been at dog shows... a lot of dog shows... and I've always wondered why some people breed working GSDs and others confirmation GSDs... this video answered my question.
And they are not the only breed subjected to this... there are many breeds that look totally different depending on whether you get the dog from a breeder that breeds dogs to do the work they were designed to do and breeders who breed for beauty. Many people who breed for confirmation has never worked their dogs in what they were originally bred to do.

I believe this documentary tried to say we should not be breeding dogs based on what they look like, but for the correct temprament, good health and working ability - which if a dog affected with genetic disease wins a dog show, I hardly believe that health, temprament and working ability was important to that breeder or any club that would make such a dog a champion.

[Binkalette]

Hm.. This seems to be a bigger problem in the UK imo.. I've watched plent of dog shows and I've never seen any GSD's walk like frogs I guess I tend to believe that most reputable breeders (at least in the USA) are breeding for sound, healthy dogs, and then conformation. To "better the breed" as it's put. I am curious what the breeders/showers on our forum think of this?

[Keechak]

Originally Posted by Rottieluv

All dogs are being bred away from what they started out as. Rottweilers use to have smaller (though still large) heads and didn't have stumps for a face like they do now. If you look up stuff about the breed years ago you can find stuff about that. I think breeders need to start worrying (and most breeders do) about the animals health. And start breeding the they way they are ment to look, not how you want them to look.

Umm NO! Both the parents of my dog, Hawkeye, are Herding Champions and he was bred for herding as well, which is one of the breeds original purposes!

[pugmom]

My pug is actually the only dog I own that is still bred for her original purpose......companionship!!

and unless you want to bring back pit fighting and rampant rat overpopulation...then my other two are SOL

[Michiyo-Fir]

I think the Cavalier, Papillon are both bred for companionship? Chihuahuas used to have a purpose right?

See usually the really popular breeds have more and more problems. As far as I know, Cavaliers have unbelievably many problems compared to a less popular breed like the Papillon.

[Pai]

Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir

I think the Cavalier, Papillon are both bred for companionship? Chihuahuas used to have a purpose right?

See usually the really popular breeds have more and more problems. As far as I know, Cavaliers have unbelievably many problems compared to a less popular breed like the Papillon.

Once a breed becomes profitable, the puppy mills and moneygrubber BYBs jump on the bandwagon. It's a blessing and a curse for a breed to ever become popular.

Chihuahuas are supposedly descended from the Techichi, a tiny dog from Central America. They were used as companions and were considered sacred.

[Mr Pooch]

Originally Posted by Rottieluv

There are a lot of people out there that are breeding purebeeds for profit and not taking the time to make sure they have healthy dogs. No one is saying they need to get rid of all purebed dogs. You should have tried to debate this, not throw a hissy fit.

I agree with the 1st part of your post but there are alot of people out there trying to make money out of DOGS full stop.

The 2nd part of your post confuses me. Redyre knows her Rotts like few others ive come across on forums (You too Inga) and her breeding process is flawless thought out to the finest detail her post was simply put IMO not a hissy fit at all.
You are the person who didn't know if Rotts were a bully breed or not so it seems you need to research beyond google maybe.

I also don't happen to agree with RR about Pedigree dogs docu,i don't think its animal rights controlled hype and has alot of truth within it but i've posted my thoughts on that a while back when this topic came up previously.

[Pai]

Yeah, there was a really big debate over this when the program first came out. The two main threads we had about it are here (CBC TV Pedigree Dogs Exposed) and here ("Pedigree Dogs Exposed" full documentary now available), if you want to read what everyone's thoughts are. It's personally not something I want to have to re-type again. =P

[Mr Pooch]

Originally Posted by Binkalette

Hm.. This seems to be a bigger problem in the UK imo.. I've watched plent of dog shows and I've never seen any GSD's walk like frogs

Im not on the show scene so maybe they have them here too but the pet quality GSD here look nothing like the "frog walking" ones you talk of.

I used to really hate the slope in any way shape or form but ive come to really like a well bred GSD in a stack with a slope that isn't overly exaggerated.