[thomasina]

Just for the record: I think Cesar Millan rocks. Not only does he do a great job with the dogs he works with, but he's also an awesome person, who has his heart in the right place.

There will always be those "know it alls" who will take something very positive and try to turn it into something bad, like Cesar's training methods.

[lawlady]

I, too, had no idea that there was so much controversy regarding Cesar Milan. I've seen his show many times, and he makes sense more often than he doesn't. When we first got our dog a year ago, i started watching Cesar. His message was so simple i was surprised that my common sense hadn't figured it out already. "Excersise, discipline, affection", in that order. "Duh, i thought to myself! Why didn't I think of that on my own?" Maybe i've just had a limited experience with dogs, but he taught me much. Or maybe i'm more like the typical dog-owner, who just deals with their own pets on the day to day basis, and have never entered the 'dog-training world'. He speaks to the average dog-owner, not those with 20 years experience with animals. I think he's amazing.

And of course, remember this is a tv show...they aren't going to show the cases that he admitidly could not rehabilitate. Although i wish they would.

Linda and Zavie

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I think alot of the Cesar bashing comes from people that are jealous of his success....

Originally Posted by thomasina

Just for the record: I think Cesar Millan rocks. Not only does he do a great job with the dogs he works with, but he's also an awesome person, who has his heart in the right place.

There will always be those "know it alls" who will take something very positive and try to turn it into something bad, like Cesar's training methods.

Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?

Thomasina do you know him personally?

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by lurcherloopy

Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?

Thomasina do you know him personally?

I don't, do you?

[opossum]

Originally Posted by lurcherloopy

Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?

Thomasina do you know him personally?

Having a differing opinion is not the same as bashing.

[thomasina]

Originally Posted by lurcherloopy

Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?

Thomasina do you know him personally?

Easy there tiger, that was merely my opinion. I didn't say anything about jealousy. It just seems to me when someone does well - the bashing starts, kind of like all those Barney haters out there. Barney is a great show for kids and very educational, however so many people have nothing but bad things to say about Barney. Same thing with Cesar. To me Cesar Millan is the equivalent of Nanny 911. He works with problem dogs as Nanny 911 works with problem children. In both cases it is for the most part bad parenting and bad pet ownership. JMO

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

I don't think it's fair to say that someone if merely "bashing" because their opinion doesn't agree with Cesar Millan. That's ridiculous. How come anyone who likes Cesar can say whatever they want in his defense, but if anyone questions him they are "bashing" him. It's called a debate people! Just because someone has a different opinion that yours doesn't mean they are trying to force you to agree with them or that they are being rude, and bashing your ideas or CM himself. I think the problem here is that people don't understand how an argument works. It's happened with a lot of other threads and I don't understand it. I am not pinpointing anyone here, I am just saying that it's rude to say someone is simply bashing CM because they don't agree with his methods. Personally, I like Cesar and agree with most of his methods, but if you don't then you don't and I for one think you have a right to that opinion...and I think you are debating, not bashing....there's a difference!

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by thomasina

Easy there tiger, that was merely my opinion. I didn't say anything about jealousy. It just seems to me when someone does well - the bashing starts, kind of like all those Barney haters out there. Barney is a great show for kids and very educational, however so many people have nothing but bad things to say about Barney. Same thing with Cesar. To me Cesar Millan is the equivalent of Nanny 911. He works with problem dogs as Nanny 911 works with problem children. In both cases it is for the most part bad parenting and bad pet ownership. JMO

But why are people who disagree with methods used on these programmes 'know it alls' for having that opinion, I suppose I just dont get the name calling.

Originally Posted by Captbob

I don't, do you?

No I dont, I also dont understand why you think Im jealous of the guy just because I dont agree with everything he does.

Im sorry but its a TV programme and as has been said Im sure we dont see half of what actually goes on. We have a similar thing over here and I know for a fact that the editing can have a remarkable effect on what goes on in reality. This blind conviction that anyone with bad things to say about his methods are jealous justs seems rather extreme and a little like censorship.

[opossum]

Originally Posted by OC_Spirit

Anybody that believes his crap and thinks highly of him does not understand dog behaviour and should not be training any dogs - ever!

Things like this look more like bashing than a "differing opinion" to me. I don't think disagreeing with Cesar makes one jealous or a know-it-all, but if you disagree with something he does, explain how you would do it different. That's a differing opinion.

[lovemygreys]

Im sorry but its a TV programme and as has been said Im sure we dont see half of what actually goes on. We have a similar thing over here and I know for a fact that the editing can have a remarkable effect on what goes on in reality. This blind conviction that anyone with bad things to say about his methods are jealous justs seems rather extreme and a little like censorship.

You have GOT to be kidding me Censorship???? <<stifling a ROFL>> You seem to take a lot of people's opinions personally, when there is no specific direction in their statement to YOU. I haven't read anyone post an absolute in this thread (except to denigrate CM)...what I have seen posted are things like SOME people or MANY people or OFTEN...no absolutes there...if you fall into the category that doesn't apply, then fine...whatever...get over it! No one appears to be talking about you specifically.

[Cbaker]

Originally Posted by OC_Spirit

Ermmmm, I never said they were the same, I said they go hand in hand I mean if you can teach a dog-aggressive dog to ignore other dogs, why cant you train him to sit? If you can teach a dog not to pull why cant you teach him stay? I understand their differences, heck I deal with and do each all the time, but like I said before, they do go hand in hand. If you understand one its not a far reach to understand the other.

Well first of all its TV, and publicity for that trainer (Who trained the dog for garfield) is good for him. Why would ceasar want to do it ? Training takes time and it would take weeks to teach the dog the routine of stop... drop... and roll.

Your on TV, you have a schedule . You dont really have time to teach that type of stuff. Ceasar does use many methods that are very beneficial for animals at the end of their road. There are many trainers that will resort to using compulsion techniques to prevent re-homing or being put down when positive reinforcement and negative reinforcment arnt viable and have failed.

Im sure you have plenty of experience, but seriously within that vast wealth of experience you should know that these tactics DO work but are not for EVERY dog. If you care to disagree please explain Koehler's numerous championships in the ring. These arnt the PREFERED METHODS. But none the less, they do work for some animals.

Many trainers wont deal with bully breeds in a group enviroment due to the fact that quite a few people freak out around them, heck petsmart declined to take my neighbors pitbull for obediance training because the other people were complaining how mean he looked. I really do admire the dedication Mr. Milan has for those amazing breeds. Ceasar in multiple episodes uses positive reinforcment for the dog, ex: the episode of the dog not wanting to be bathed. He used treats and praise as the method to progress through the exercise.

As for only using fear? Flooding is a effective tactic for behavior modification in the event that a dog is still displaying major stress responses to the event. (Ie running away, ducking, cowering, turning away, dragging along ect)

If your unable to break the behavior threshold of the fear, you will have to press forward to foce the animal to adapt and overcome. You only have so many options, and with his time being somewhat short he normally resorts to flooding vs. positive reinforcment and slow + gradual decreases in distance from the fear source.

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

You have GOT to be kidding me Censorship???? <<stifling a ROFL>> You seem to take a lot of people's opinions personally, when there is no specific direction in their statement to YOU. I haven't read anyone post an absolute in this thread (except to denigrate CM)...what I have seen posted are things like SOME people or MANY people or OFTEN...no absolutes there...if you fall into the category that doesn't apply, then fine...whatever...get over it! No one appears to be talking about you specifically.

Im sorry if my posts offend you so much I realise we have had a difference of opinion in previously but Im not sure where else Ive taken ‘a lot of people’s opinions personally’. I am aware that no one was targeting me specifically but anyone who does not agree with CM, I was merely questioning why people think those who do not follow CM’s methods must be know it alls or jealous.

Again I can only apologise if you find my posts offensive or tedious, I was merely giving my opinion and questioning others opinions, I totally respect your right to your views and your right to post on threads but do not like to resort to name calling.

I am trying very hard to get over it – but Im not sure what it is!

[Laurelin]

This is a prime example of why I don't pay any attention to the dog whisperer.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

I like the Dog Whisperer, but I don't really think it's much cause for debate...at least not a very good debate....you either like it or you don't.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by lurcherloopy

But why are people who disagree with methods used on these programmes 'know it alls' for having that opinion, I suppose I just dont get the name calling.



No I dont, I also dont understand why you think Im jealous of the guy just because I dont agree with everything he does.

Im sorry but its a TV programme and as has been said Im sure we dont see half of what actually goes on. We have a similar thing over here and I know for a fact that the editing can have a remarkable effect on what goes on in reality. This blind conviction that anyone with bad things to say about his methods are jealous justs seems rather extreme and a little like censorship.

First of all, if you go back and read my post, you will notice that I did not name anyone, I just made a statement, which I believe to be true, that alot of the bashing on Cesar on many Dog Forums, not just this one, is done by people that think they know everything about training dogs. They may have a background of housebreaking a couple of dogs and teaching them to sit, stay, heel, and now they talk about how Cesar doesn't know what he is doing. Prior to watching my first Cesar show, from the posts that I have read on a few forums, I expected Cesar to be hanging dogs, beating them, and using electric shock, because the people bashing his methods kept mentioning that he "was so cruel to the dogs." I have friends that watched his show, that are avid dog owners, and when I would ask them about the " cruel" methods " that Cesar used, they would look at me like I had lost mind.

A couple of months ago, I got Direct TV, and since then I have watched many of his shows........ Guess what, my friends were right, there is no cruelty that I see, and all this Cesar bashing that I have been reading on the forums, turns out to be totally false.....That is what bothers me, that people with little or no qualifications in what Cesar is accomplishing, are constantly knocking his methods. If they are so much better than Cesar, it would seem that they should get their own show, and show the world how great they are. Somehow, I don't see that happening any time soon.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Captbob

That is what bothers me, that people with little or no qualifications in what Cesar is accomplishing, are constantly knocking his methods. If they are so much better than Cesar, it would seem that they should get their own show, and show the world how great they are. Somehow, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Agreed!!!

[Curbside Prophet]

Finding a good trainer is no different than finding a good breeder...you have to do your homework. Just as having a recognizable TV show does not preclude that Cesar is or is not a good trainer, nor does the absence of a TV show preclude that another trainer is or is not a good trainer. Some excellent trainers are not make for TV, and would prefer to stay that way. Personally, I need credentials...Cesar as far as I know is a self made dog psychologist. I think that's wonderful, however, I need credentials. The proof may be in the pudding, but for my money, I want both...credentials and pudding. This says nothing about a like or dislike for Cesar, but for goodness sakes people, it's just a TV show. A TV show that is driven by ratings. Am I the only one who notice that after the incident with that lab Cesar started to employ more positve reinforcement in his show? Like I stated originally, there's nothing new or inventive about his techniques. Maybe the criticism comes because he does not convey why alternate, and equally effective, approaches are not used? He'd probably need a bigger paycheck and an hour long show to do that though. Not sure, but don't care as long as you give your dog what it needs to be happy and healthy. If anything, the show does highlight how ignorant dog owners can be.

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I never said ALL...I said SOME. And some is accurate, in my experience. People can have whatever opinion they want of Cesar or any other trainer or behaviorist. I never said they can't or shouldn't. There's more than one way to train a dog, ya know.

In MY opinion, anyone who completely discounts everything Cesar says or does is no one I'd want to talk seriously about dogs or training/behavior...be offended if you want....but that's MY opinion.

I watch his show if I happen to pass by it while flipping channels. I've seen some stories where, quite frankly, I thought he as off in his assessment or there could have been better methods in helping the dog or the owners. But, as a whole, I think he hits the mark much more often than he misses....and that's valuable. Too many trainers make dogs and dog behavior sound complicated...and that can be overwhelming to your average dog owner who wants a well behaved companion...they aren't interested in an obedience or agility champ. Cesar keeps it nice and simple...as it should be.

What I don't understand is why some dismiss him completely and with such vehemence and anger (not nec on this board, but on others). To me, that's almost as bad, or worse than someone who follows him blindly.

**Disclaimer: I think obedience is wonderful and I think in many cases it can really enhance the dog/owner bond. If it's something the owner and dog enjoy, them more power to them! Personally, I hate it and my dogs find it pointless and beneath them most of the time (gotta love sighthounds ) .

Fine before I finish on here can I just say I thought this was good response to this thread. And as for them greyhounds shhhh it is beneath them and way to energetic.

Originally Posted by Captbob

I think alot of the Cesar bashing comes from people that are jealous of his success....

Originally Posted by Captbob

First of all, if you go back and read my post, you will notice that I did not name anyone, I just made a statement, which I believe to be true, that alot of the bashing on Cesar on many Dog Forums, not just this one, is done by people that think they know everything about training dogs. They may have a background of housebreaking a couple of dogs and teaching them to sit, stay, heel, and now they talk about how Cesar doesn't know what he is doing.
.

I have read your comment and you say they are jealous, now you say its because they are inexperienced or have little or no dog knowledge. Yes its a statement and rather a generalisation, however, if thats your opinion that other trainers are not as knowledgeable fine.

I really didnt come on here to cause upset or arguement and if my opinions offend again I apologise and will be perhaps a bit more careful voicing them in the future. I can only hold out an olive branch and in my defence perhaps its a cultural thing.

I do agree with the above post from what Ive heard and seen it seems he has changed his methods to more positive ways (I think we possibly get his older shows here).

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If anything, the show does highlight how ignorant dog owners can be.

Awesome point Curbside! I think that is the best part of the show. I mean of all the episodes I have seen (which is quite a few) most of them have really shown that these owners know nothing about dogs. I mean each episode gives the disclaimer that you shouldn't try these techniques without consulting a behaviourist, so if nothing else I only hope more dog owners like the ones in the show can learn something about dogs in general.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by Captbob

And your training background to justify your negative remarks is what? I hear people bashing Cesar all the time, but everyone I have met that doesn't like him, has had zero experience in any kind of complex dog training, so I am skeptical of his critics.

I've been training dogs since I was 15. I'm now 40. I used adversive techniques I was taught until I found better ways. The fact is, the types of techniques Milan uses often fail fearful or aggressive dogs. The dogs repress until they 'pop off' and do severe damage. I've explained in other threads dealing with this subject how I feel and even stated the science behind my feelings. I will continue to use the techniques endorsed by people who have been behaviorist since Milan was in diapers and are certified Veterinarians (Ian Dunbar) and have proven succeses.