[4dogs3cats]

This is a great thread Curb.

I feel a lot has been said so far. I know I have made many bad choices and have got dogs from bad places. I love them despite their issues, but i do regret getting Chance. He clearly did not come from a good place, and that could be the cause of a lot of his problems today.

[Mr Pooch]

Ditto jen,Blake didnt come from a good place either BUT if he was in other hands he wouldnt be the dog he is today.

Comes back down to the ownership,dont give up on chance.

Appologies for going off thread.

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

"A really companionable and indespensible dog is an accident of nature... You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens." -- E.B. White

Mr. White's opinion was expressed in 1940...I've noticed some of you have the same opinion. With Mr. White's opinion in mind, however, it's tempting to oppose it by saying good dogs come from good breeders, or that good dogs come from good parent dogs...especially with the technology and understanding available to us today. However, I have a different proposition for you...good dogs come from your own decisions. If you can accept this premise...you're on your own when you set out to find a good dog, you must be clear about what you're looking for, and you must do your homework...you'll accept my proposition.

Then consider this... We live in an age when there is more behavioral and biological understanding than ever before...more so than even in Mr. White's time. It seems simple, if you make the right decisions, you'll deal with the right kind of people. Make the wrong decisions, and you'll be dealing with people who could care less if your dog lives into adulthood, costs you multiple visits to the vet, or inherits a temperament ill fitted for our companionship. It seems simple, yet, we discuss at great length the epidemics and moral failures that still exist. Why?

Is it that some of us didn't ask the fundamental question should I own a dog? Or is it because we didn't consider our adoption options before buying from a breeder? Or is it as simple as, I didn't know what research I should do?

So I ask you then, where do good dogs come from? What do I need to do as a buyer, adopter, or foster to find a good dog? Where should I start? What do I need to know? What questions should I ask? What red flags should I look for?

That is a very inaccurate, especially with all that we do understand today. We know a lot more then what we did then. What is sad though is that "problem dogs" seem to be increasing despite all the knowledge and information out there.

The technology has been an advancement for breeders striving to produce good dogs. With new test for diseases, recording/sharing data, and even more knowledge on canine genetics including more in depth on individual breeds.

Good dogs simply do come from good breeders/parents. There are always "flukes" poor quality parents produce a good dog, this is because of some of the good genetics they are carrying - throwbacks. On the other hand mediocre parents can produce poor quality pups, worse then themselves for the same reason. A lot of people breeding their pets want to produce "nice" pups and often seek to reproduce their own dog. This usually doesn't work out as planned, they don't know about their dogs pedigrees, genetics or bloodlines and its a total crap shoot. Even in well planned breedings you could still get a surprise. We can't precisely control what genes each pup inherits. So think of the greater risk from a bad breeder.

I saw where it was mentioned "It's all in how you raise them" thats a big myth with Pit Bulls people like to throw around. Every dog doesn't have what it takes to be a good dog. Starting with a dog of sound temperament is your best bet. Even people with dedication who will truly be responsible with their dog can struggle when buying a dog with a bad temperament, whether it be aggressive or shy. Some dogs are hopeless, they can't simply be trained nor conditioned out of these problems. These "hopeless" dogs are fewer (as many shy or even aggressive dogs can be trained to make them fairly good dogs) but exist due to genetic defects.

I think that going to a breeder of sound dogs you have a very high chance of getting a good dog. The rest is up to you once you get the dog (although a good breeder will offer help). If you start with a bad dog you can be setting yourself up for failure. If you know what you want, as mentioned, that helps a lot, it gives you a starting point, what breed, what bloodline and then what breeder. You have to know your criteria for it to be filled.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Spicy1_VV

That is a very inaccurate, especially with all that we do understand today. We know a lot more then what we did then. What is sad though is that "problem dogs" seem to be increasing despite all the knowledge and information out there.

I'm not sure what you're calling inaccurate. Mr. White's statement? Or my premise?

Originally Posted by Spicy1_VV

Good dogs simply do come from good breeders/parents.

The question is what choices would a prospective buyer have in deciphering good parent dogs. Of course, if you're buying a dog from a breeder, the breeder IS everything. But, as a consumer, my choices should lead me to that breeder. So how do I get there. That's the question.

If I were to buy a pit bull, what does the breeder do, that identifies to me, that he or she is a great breeder over someone else? What choices should I make in finding a great pit bull?

[kims_ark]

Ok I'm probably going to get some flack for what I'm about to say but here goes anyway.

First let me start by saying that here in New England the spay/neuter program has been so successful that the shelters are almost empty (at any given time there are maybe 5 - 10 dogs available) and even mutts come with a price tag. If you're looking for a purebred dog the price tag is even higher than in other areas of the country. I am also a lover of mutts and have never owned a purebred dog, nor do I have the desire to. More often than not I will go to a shelter before looking for a puppy. In this area the shelters are charging anywhere from $125 and as high as $400 to adopt a dog. We have 2 rescues and in the past 11 years have also had 2 shelter dogs but 3 of our dogs we brought home as puppies.

The best dog we have had came from a litter of puppies of Shep/Golden Lab mixes that were being given away. When we went to look at the litter we spent a long time there. We spent time with the mother of the pups and I walked around and handled all the puppies that were still available. It was a warm day and they were all out in the yard playing. I sat on the ground and played with them as well. The one puppy that stayed with me and kept nibbling at my shoe laces was the one we ended up bringing home. He picked me out.

Tucker turned out to be the house mother of everybody and everything under this roof. He was gentle and loving. There wasn't an aggressive bone in his body and through his life I don't think he hurt a flea. He was obedient and trustworthy as well. I never heard a growl come out of him. Unfortunately we lost him a little over a month ago at the age of 10 1/2 years old to cancer. He was a once in a lifetime dog.

Of course we asked all the standard questions about his parents, their temperment, health and so forth before going to see the puppies. I was also familiar with both breeds as we always had dogs in the house as a kid.

I think the biggest mistake people (in general) make when picking out a puppy, whether it's a purebred dog or a mutt, is that they don't take into consideration what the breed requires. Face it if you're a couch potato and you want a Jack Russell and don't have any outlet for the energy these dogs have then it's not going to be a good match. Just like if you are someone who is really active and enjoys hiking a chihuahua would probably not be a good choice unless you plan on leaving it home or carrying it.

Another mistake is that people want a dog to have a dog and don't want to put the time or energy it takes into training. Today many people are too busy to spend time with their kids, never mind training a dog. They get a dog for their kids to play with and then expect it to magically turn into Lassie on it's own. Well, I think everyone here knows that it won't happen.

I know for a fact that two of our dogs are from puppy mills and were found at shelters. So the question of parentage goes out the window with that. One of them spent the first year of his life in a cage with minimal human contact. The other was picked up as a stray at the age of 6 months. I don't think I need to tell everyone that they came with a long list of issues and it took a long time to reverse the damage that had been done by other people. But they have turned out to be awesome dogs.

So where do good dogs come from?

Well, other than taking parantage and breed into consideration I think the individual personality of the dog has to be considered as well. A dog that tends to be shy is not going to become the life of the party once it's home.

You have to be willing to spend time with the dog or puppy before bringing it home. Take it for a walk, play with it, etc. If you don't like what you see when you're "just looking" then you're probably not going to like it at home either.

You have to make a commitment to the dog as if you were bringing home a child. Make sure it gets the right food, medical care, proper exercise, and be willing to spend the time, and if necessary, money required to train it.

Don't expect a dog to be something it's not. If you're looking for a lap dog then a breed that's known for it's independence would not be a good choice.
You have to be willing to accept the good and the bad of the breed as well. If you don't like what may be considered the "bad" aspects of the breed then you may want to reconsider your choice.

Sometimes you have to be willing to let the dog pick you out. You may not get the dog that's the best looking and it may not fetch the way you want it to, but in the end it will turn out to be your best friend. I've never gone wrong with letting the dog pick me out.

Most of all you have to have a lot of patience.

Yes, in cases like Tucker the "perfect" dog for you may just be born but in other cases it takes a lot of time and work on the part of the human. Many people don't understand that and I think that's the main reason why so many dogs end up homeless and with issues.

As someone who has a habit of taking on the "less than desirable" and overlooked dogs from the shelters -- the ones with the long list of issues, I guess my perspective is a bit different. But to me these are the important factors I consider when looking for a dog. In my mind even "bad" dogs can turn out to be awesome dogs.

Oh and I agree that Brian Killcommon's book is awesome and a good place to start (even though I don't agree with everything he says). I consider it a must read for anyone even considering getting a dog.

Kim

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I'm not sure what you're calling inaccurate. Mr. White's statement? Or my premise?

His

The question is what choices would a prospective buyer have in deciphering good parent dogs. Of course, if you're buying a dog from a breeder, the breeder IS everything. But, as a consumer, my choices should lead me to that breeder. So how do I get there. That's the question.

If I were to buy a pit bull, what does the breeder do, that identifies to me, that he or she is a great breeder over someone else? What choices should I make in finding a great pit bull?

I somewhat understand the question, really I do but its kind of hard to answer. If that even makes sense. I've never really been in that position myself. I'd say that what makes a good breeder is similar from breed to breed with some differences in dos and don'ts. No matter if its a Pit Bull or whatever.

Perhaps my answer was too simple? Know what you want, know the breed, bloodlines and pedigrees.

If you don't know what you want then you can't know if a certain breeder meets your criteria and if their dogs would be right for you.
Know what size you want, activity level, the drives you want/can handle, what you expect from the breeder like guarantees and things like that, think about what traits that you'll desire in your new pup. Of course the breeder should be just as willing to assist with information about their dogs, its open communication you can ask them questions and they will probably have questions for you. Be weary of those who seem to only say what you want to hear and talk like a cars salesman. Now that doesn't mean if they actually have what you want, you can obviously tell the difference. Those who make verbal guarantees on everything and anything, hyping their dogs up to be the best in the world. Its usually a sales pitch.

Know the breed. If you don't again how can you know that the breeder is breeding correctly and that this would be a good breed and a specific good pup for you? You need to know the general temperament, pros and cons as far as breed traits, exercise needs, grooming needs, correct temperament and things of this nature. This way you will be able to recognize if a breeder is breeding good dogs or not, are they up to standards or not.

Learning about the traits of specific bloodlines which might have differences in some of the areas, some traits might be stronger, specifically what you are looking for, some might have a health problems more commonly seen in that line so it would be something you'd either want to steer clear of or make sure it isn't prevalent in this particular breeders program. Do you want a show dog, weight pull dog, hunting dog, companion dog? This will again lead you to certain bloodlines which will then help you then find a breeder who has those and yet again narrow it down to a breeder who meets your standards. If you just want a pet you probably don't want a line of dogs that are extreme working dogs depending on the situation. Once you find lines that have traits you like you can start looking at some breeders who have it. Meet their dogs, talk to other people to get feedback on them, talk with them about their dogs to make sure its what you want.

Knowing the dogs in the pedigree and knowing how to read a pedigree will certainly help. Breeders are usually willing to help explain some of the things and provide information about the specific dogs but you should also gain your own knowledge. As much as possible so you know what you're looking at and will also know if they really know what they are talking about. If the pedigree is crap the dog will likely be crap too, if the pedigree is good the dog will likely be good.

Have a list of whats important to you in a future pup. This way you will know what to ask the breeder. To locate a breeder you could join a breed club or go to shows, its a good place to start. Because you can talk to breeders and actually meet the dogs and even see them in action. You can see how social they are outside of their home environment where you might see them if going to visit the kennel, you can see how different breeders dogs compare to each other. I'd also say their own dogs health. If the breeder cares about their dogs then they wouldn't be ill, even small things like bad coat might be a sign they are not taking good care of the dog or the dog could even have a possible skin/coat condition so you'd want to stay away. Also club members who are knowledgeable on the breed could help you find a couple good breeders, they can steer you in the right direction to make sure you get a quality pup.

Making these decisions will help you find a good breeder and hopefully the right breeder.

[poodleholic]

Wonderful topic, Curb, and sure to educate some, give food for thought with others.

There are so many things to factor in and decide prior to bringing a dog home.

One of my two Standard Poodles is a rehome/rescue. The people who alerted me to his plight also knew his breeder (& a few had some of her dogs), so I was able to find out everything I needed to know (his pedigree & about his breeder) prior to making the decision to take him home. I had a 16 month old female Standard at home (whom I'd gotten from a breeder as a 9 wk. old puppy). This rescue was also 16 months old, and intact. Maddy was still intact, as she wasn't due to be spayed for another 3-4 months.

Beau had dog-to-dog aggression issues, serious since I already had a dog at home. A lesser risk since she was the opposite sex, but, still a risk. I did not bring her with me to help with the decision because of our relationship with each other, and, I already knew that she would be ok with whomever I brought home, as this had been my experience with her (I fostered, and she was marvelous w/them). Based on his pedigree, and the temperaments of his parents, and the other puppies, along with knowlege of his environment with his current owner (& the handler she used to show him in the ring), I took a chance on Beau, feeling that I would be able to work with his reactivity and dog agression over time. I was also committed to doing whatever it took to manage him, while giving him a good life, should it not work out.

Beau also had serious health problems (gastrointestinal) that, through daily journaling observations (in addition to medical tests), I determined were stress-related. He had to be hand fed up to 7 times/day for the first several months, in order to keep his food down, and prevent the gagging and vomiting.

He was also a window terrorist; barking, snarling, and foaming at the mouth, his lunges at the window a serious health risk, because I feared he'd crash through!

I'm happy to say that Beau is a wonderful addition to the family, who loves his Maddy, worships the ground I walk on (), and has been kind and sensitive to the numerous foster dogs and cats who have come and gone over the past 5 years he's been with us. He's no longer a window terrorist, and is simply a healthy, happy, well-adjusted dog!

A "bad" dog turned "good." How/Why? I took a calculated risk, factoring in genetics and history, and putting in the time and effort it took to desensitize and counter condition his "problems." It paid off.

[Curbside Prophet]

Poodleholic, this brings up a good point I think is worth considering, and perhaps you or someone else may have some feedback in where to make this choice....

Let's say you were to take on a dog with known problems, be it aggression, fear, or compulsions. Would it be prudent to have a certified trainer lined up when assessing the dog, and have that person come along to meet the dog?

When does your experience make it plausible to assess the dog alone?

I can't imagine the average dog owner knows what desensitization or counter conditioning is, or even how to apply it in the real world, so what should an owner know before taking on a dog like Beau? Including plan B options?

Spicy, I think it's a very good point to think ahead, to know what you want the dog to be. He may never turn out that way, but I think its very important to have this discussion with the breeder, if that's the route you're choosing. This conversation alone could save an owner a lot of grief, I agree.

[poodleholic]

Poodleholic, this brings up a good point I think is worth considering, and perhaps you or someone else may have some feedback in where to make this choice....

Let's say you were to take on a dog with known problems, be it aggression, fear, or compulsions. Would it be prudent to have a certified trainer lined up when assessing the dog, and have that person come along to meet the dog?

Yes, it would be prudent. However, for myself, I'd have to know of, and feel confident that this certified trainer had the knowlege, skills, and experience to assess behaviorial issues to begin with. There are many good trainers who do well with the average dog, but, who know jack sh** about behavioral problems, or what to do in an effort to overcome them.

When does your experience make it plausible to assess the dog alone?

Good question. I, personally, have no formal training in dog training or behavior. I shunned obedience classes with my dogs because the class I did attend (or simply observed to see if I wanted to enroll) horrified me. The choke chain collar was used, and the "hang 'em up" method of teaching dogs made no sense to me. I was a good observer, and have honed this skill over the years. I also have good intuition. The two give me what I need to know when it comes to animals (and people). So far (over a span of 55 yrs. and numerous dogs), I've been had success with my dogs, and they've been great companions who defer to my wishes. With Beau, I first observed him for a short time, and then simply knelt down (a short distance from him), and looked at him eye-to-eye. He came to me, and literally collapsed against my chest, letting out a big sigh. It was a done deal.

I can't imagine the average dog owner knows what desensitization or counter conditioning is, or even how to apply it in the real world, so what should an owner know before taking on a dog like Beau? Including plan B options?

I would have to agree! I only know because I've done a lot of reading and watching DVDs over the past 6 yrs. (bless you, Turrid Rugaas, for your wisdom concerning aggressive dogs!). Even before I knew what desensitization and counter conditioning was, I somehow had the ability to figure out what to do. I can't explain it, but there is something about me that animals trust, and I am somehow able to connect, and communicate with them. The dogs who have come into my life have taught me much over the years.

The most important thing a person should know prior to taking on a dog like Beau is whether or not they are ready, willing, and able to deal with serious behavioral issues, and have the time, patience, effort, and energy that goes with it. Some key points;

I had to keep Maddy safe at all times. So, I needed a plan, and any equipment to implement that.

I wrote out a training plan, and the steps to achieve each goal.

I kept a daily journal to record observations, and note progress, or lack of it. It helped me be more accurate in my assessment of how things were going, since I was working alone, without benefit of professional (or any other kind of) help.

If known, get in touch with the breeder. I got in touch with Beau's breeder, who was a wealth of information, however, I also spoke with others, who would/could provide me with, perhaps, a more objective viewpoint of the dog himself, of her foundation bitch (Beau's dam), and of the sire, as well as others in the pedigree. I also got information on Beau's littermates.

I trusted Maddy's judgement: There were times she would not go outside with Beau. I quickly learned to trust her judgement - after she was forced to leap onto the picnic table to get away from him (and then told him off in no uncertain terms)! He hadn't hurt her, but he was being a bully, and too rough. Maddy helped Beau a great deal, and she also helped me to help Beau.

PLAN B: Keep the dog and manage him, or, return to the breeder, if possible. (BTW, Beau's breeder offered to take him, once she learned of his plight, and that I had taken him on.)

KNOW that, despite all efforts, the dog may well just have to be managed. I was willing to do that, which meant I had to provide for all of Beau's needs without taking him out and about in the community, where he'd meet other dogs and react. He was far stronger than I, so I worried about him getting loose on me, and I didn't want him going into that adrenalin rush, because it affected his health in addition to making him worse the next time. As reactive as Beau was (would gag and vomit for days), it also (possibly) increased the risk of bloat. A lot of our walks (with and w/out Maddy) took place at 3:00am, when we were unlikely to come upon another dog. If I hadn't been able to work through Beau's problems, we would be taking our walks in the middle of the night for the duration.

[harrise]

Originally Posted by poodleholic

I kept a daily journal to record observations, and note progress, or lack of it. It helped me be more accurate in my assessment of how things were going, since I was working alone, without benefit of professional (or any other kind of) help.

Great point there poodle, having the self discipline to dutifully keep accurate records of the moment is an absolute must, if you're doing things yourself. Coco's former owner had been convinced by three trainers that she was dog-dog aggressive, and that's that. After a "proper" introduction to Sioux, she came home. Of course she still had some flare ups, but it was the ability to observe and IMMEDIATELY note what happened that got us through it. By doing this I was able to move on from "that came out of nowhere!", to redirecting her attention with a simple snap when her eyes dart. As far as having a trainer lined up, I would say yes because most people aren't going to have those observation skills honed in to the dog on the first day.

I would also add a personal trick I use on myself when I can't decide if I'm telling me the truth. Flip a coin. You will know by your reaction to the outcome what the truth is inside yourself.

[Mac'N'Roe]

Originally Posted by LaRositaMonita

...though it might be valid to also wonder if our good dog isn't going to actually find us.

Mine found me

[Inga]

First let me say, I have enjoyed reading this thread. I must however, be the luckiest person to walk the face of this Earth when it comes to "picking dogs" I have never had a BAD DOG. At least not as far as I have been concerned. I have rescued all but one from all different backgrounds and all different ages. Maybe it is easy for me because I don't have any preconceived notions as to what is a good dog or maybe I am just a simple, easy to please person. I have always been of the idea that you get out of it what you put into it. I have seen so many dogs sitting in people's backyards tied to trees that I just knew could be amazing dogs if they had lucked out to the point of getting someone that cared enough about them to spend time training them. With the possible exception of a dog with mental health issues due to hormone imbalances (which can usually be treated) or brain tumor or something. I believe that there are no bad dogs. Yes, some are easier to train then others, some are more willing to work then others but for the most part, spend the time with them and reap the benefits. For me, I feel that dogs that don't go as far in training as others are my failures. I have not found the key to unlock their gifts. I have been lazy with dogs and then thought, Hm, this dog is kind of dumb, he just doesn't get it. Truth is, I have not made the efforts necessary to click with that individual dog. Maybe I would be fussier if I were looking for a dog that was going to work a farm with me, or I was training a dog in personal protection or something. The average person looking for an excellent pet only need look for a dog that they "click" with. IMO Everything else will depend on what they put into the dog. Obviously if my goals are to show in conformation then I don't begin my search for my dog at the local shelter. I also don't think if I am looking for a dog that will just lay on the couch next to me and go for a daily walk that I need to act as though it is rocket science in finding the right dog for me. I believe the secret is in being honest with ones self about what they are willing to offer the dog and what they can tolerate in a dog. Again, maybe my thought process in this is too simplistic but I can honestly say I have never owned a bad dog and many of them were just dumped off at my house with no forethought from me. I guess my only reason for considering the search for the perfect breeder was a hope for a dog with better health. Up until this past year I have been lucky with that as well with all of my dogs living to old age and some even making it to plain old ancient. LOL So far, I cannot say I love this new dog more then any of the others. He is actually a bit boring. Maybe I need more of a challenge or something. To date, the dump off method of picking dogs or NOT picking them has worked for me.