[sheltiemom]

When I got my first pup, the breeder had two available out of a litter of five and one older dog that we wanted to look at. We ruled out the older one right away because he was very shy. Out of the other two, we had a favorite based on the pictures we'd seen and we went there thinking we'd probably put a deposit on that one. One had a face blaze, one a solid face - we liked the face blaze one. After spending literally hours with the puppies, the breeder said she thought the solid faced one would be a better fit based on his interaction with us. We liked the fact that he kept coming back and getting in my lap, while the other puppy was more interested in exploring the room. They were both super cute, but we went with her recommendation and our own gut feeling and got the solid faced one. It could still be luck, but we are very pleased with our pup. We've had him two months now and his temperment is perfect. He's outgoing, sweet, reponsive to us, not nippy.

When we got the second one, we were waiting for a specific color (sounds odd I know, but I really wanted a blue merle). We thought we'd have to wait through several litters, but the breeder called us and said she had one she was growing out for show, but he went oversize. The only thing we looked at the second time was whether or not he got along with our first dog. They did get along, and we took him home. The second one is much more shy than the first, but is still a very good dog. I guess we really got lucky there, because we hardly spent any time with him before we bought him. I think with puppies though, initial temperment is just a beginning point and the rest is in how you raise them. It'll be interesting to see how the shy one grows up compared to the outgoing one.

I should also add that I did months of research on breeds, breeders, rescues, training, etc before deciding to get a dog. By the time I got one, I was fully aware of all the downsides of my breed of choice and of dogs in general.

[GlitterFlame89]

I just wanted to say thanks so much for this post, because I am finding it EXTREMELY helpful in chosing a breeder/dog/rescue. We always went to the pund, found a nice young pup, and went from there, as a family. I want to do things "the right way", and this is just so helpful. I especially like the person who said "I'm not looking for a dog, I am looking for my dog, because that really sums it up perfectly. Thanks again!

[tcasby]

Putting a deposit on a dog that won't be conceived for a year reduces the chance of getting a bad dog.

A good dog is more then a dog that is not bad. It is a dog that clearly improves the quality of you life.

There are 80 million pet dogs in the US. Maybe 5% were bred for heath and temperament from quality bloodlines.

Are most of the good dogs concintrated in that group?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tcasby

Are most of the good dogs concintrated in that group?

If you accept my premise, yes. Again, if you make good decisions, you're not likely to deal with a breeder who doesn't health, temperament, and genetic test.

If you're suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread.

This thread isn't about all the good dogs born in this world or where they come from (my dog came from a puppy mill but I made good decisions in finding her), it's about good decisions, and choices/challenges owners will face when buying a dog.

[tcasby]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If you accept my premise, yes. Again, if you make good decisions, you're not likely to deal with a breeder who doesn't health, temperament, and genetic test.

If you're suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread.

This thread isn't about all the good dogs born in this world, it's about good decisions, and the better odds one will find in making good decisions.

I am not suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread. I can strive to become and olympic athlete. But it's not the point of my post.

All reasonable people make what they believe are good decisions based on their world view, their temperament, their understanding of the subject, etc.
The result of these decisions are often heavily influence by circumstances, chance, environment, etc. The ethics of dog ownership is enormously complicated and beyond complete understanding by me, you, or anyone on this forum.

Question for you -
If you were magically able to influence every potential dog owner to make the decisions you would have made for them, what would be the state of dog ownership and dog welfare be in 10 years?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tcasby

you're missing the point of this thread.

Not likely, since I started the thread.

The result of these decisions are often heavily influence by circumstances, chance, environment, etc.

Including ignorance. The point of this thread is expose the ignorance and speak on the choices dog owners *do* have before buying a dog.

The ethics of dog ownership is enormously complicated and beyond complete understanding by me, you, or anyone on this forum.

This thread isn't about the ethics of dog ownership. If you want to keep your dog outdoors when I think it should be kept in a crate, that's a separate issue, and not the topic of this thread.

If a customer has a choice between choosing a dog who's parent dogs are PRA tested, and one who's not, is there a debate? If dog ownership is really about what the dog gives back to the owner, wouldn't it be prudent that you buy a dog who can give back with some insurance that he will remain healthy in doing so? This is the point of this thread.

If you were magically able to influence every dog owner and potential dog owner to make the decisions you would have made for them, what would be the state of dog ownership and dog welfare be in 10 years?

What's the point of your question, and how does it relate to the topic at hand? I'm finding this question silly. It's like asking someone what is utopia. Where does one begin explaining that?

[harrise]

I would like to add a couple of points about rescued/rehomed dogs.

My search for the third Malamute in my life was full of dissapointment and aggrevation. Over the course of six weeks, we visited shelters, and contacted rescue groups specializing in the breed. The rescue was an awful, and I hope isolated experience. I would have understood if they had said none of their dogs currently for adoption match my needs, but their stance was Malamutes CANNOT live with cats, and males don't get along with other working breed males. Say what? I knew we would end up with a Saint as well, and through all of our encounters this was mentioned. So without properly doing research, we set out and started meeting dogs listed on craigslist. When the wife went to meet Sioux for the first time, he was chained to a kitchen counter, in a house with a yard the size of a garage, couch parts everywhere, and free please take him away. He had been sheltered once and adopted once before returning a third time to that house. So she brought him home. Thankfully at ten months he looked spot on for the breed, and his temperment was classic sled dog. Two weeks later when we met Bubba we were ready. There had been several dogs with hip problems that were obvious but not mentioned, and dogs that would cower when touched. After three dogs obtained through internet listings I have a somewhat partial list of things I do. This is also from someone who had dogs and didn't need to assess my motives as unrealistic. In no particular order:

1. Know how to read a pedigree.
I was a bit discriminating in this because I wanted pure bred dogs. Orthopedic certificates are listed there as well.

2. Talk and interview the owner before paying much attention to the dog.
These people probably won't let you rummage around the whole house, but be observant. A dog in a home that looks like an Ethan Allen catalogue is probably not in the right place. Conversely a dog in a frat type environment with pizza boxes, beer cans, and clothes strewn about is probably not in the right place either.

3. Go to shelters, and ask local vets about hip problems and how they assess them.
This part is a little heart wrenching, but if you get a chance to walk with a few dogs that have been diagnosed with issues, you will have an idea what to look for in gait and endurance.

4. Know the breed standard. (If that's what you're after)
When researching the breed, many common problems are listed ad naseum.

5. Take the dog for a walk.
By that I mean a REAL walk, like 30-45 minutes minimum. A dog that is eager, excited, and not looking/pulling back is what I'm looking for. To me it signals they don't walk him, and the relationship will build quickly.

5a. Take a break alone with the dog in a spot away from the immediate neighborhood.
By this point I'm assuming the dog is not overly aggressive, or you would be on your way to the next one. This is where the dog interview comes in. Testing how sensitive he is to petting, grabbing, and grooming. I inspect the ears, feel the feet, lift the jowels, rub the hips and stomach, things that will be common place.

6. Learn the concepts and principles of operant conditioning, and classical conditioning.
I had no clue at the time that I was desensitizing my dogs, and changing their conditioned response. Food guarding was something they all did, and as I was weening them off their previous diet, I would add the new stuff by hand while they were eating. By the time they were on the new diet, feeding aggression had ceased. Now after a Jean Donaldson book, I realize what was going on. Thank doG I ended up doing it correctly, I just wish I had known it at the time. These two basics of behavior are a must know in my opinion.

7. Negotiate. (If you're the type that doesn't mind getting a little antagonistic)
Sioux was free, Bubba was $150 down to $50, and Coco was $150 down to $50. I don't accept the charging of a rehoming fee as a likely path to a good home. Mainly because I spend too much on the dogs as it is. I also carried proof of the thousands spent the last year of Lakota's life. Even if they have vet records and a recent exam, I will still take the dog to my vet for a complete once over and introduction. Things like changing ownership info with the microchip company, additional vaccinations, heartgard, double checking cysts to know they are sebacious, all cost money that I don't think should go to the previous owner. I offered to send copies of receipts as proof of my commitment, and no one wanted them, go figure.

8. Find out if any training had been done, and if so, with whom?
Coco had been to a trainer that said she shouldn't be in a muli-dog house. I took Sioux with us because this guy just couldn't find someone he would let her go to. They were introduced, no problems, he came to OUR house, met the rest of the pack, and left her here. Upon further internet research, I found this trainer's name in a few forums that consistently rated him negatively. Grain of salt.

9. Understand that complete integration will take time.
As I've mentioned in a few other threads, I lost two couches, a chair, blankets, area rugs, and countless times the trash was scattered about the house. I had these guys over a year before I started actually training them. Now I have a pack of dogs that are nearly ready for a Canine Good Citizen test. The house is complete.

Just a few things to consider, and I'm sure there's a lot more to have in mind when finding your dog. I feel that these few items will help in identifying a "good" dog (sans the negotiating of course). Because, obviously these folks didn't ask the proper questions the first time, and asking them those questions is pointless. Although I was told hundreds of times to get rid of Sioux, those same people now come around saying "He's so well behaved! This is the couch dog? I would've taken him to the pound and never seen how good he could've been."

Final thought: PATIENCE. That's my magic ingredient.

[Elana55]

I am not sure if anyone will agree with me on this, but I can tell you how I went about the 'getting the dog' thing. I have had a few dogs and only one that did not work out.. and that was NOT because he was a bad dog, but because he was allergic to Cows (likely cow Poop was the culprit) and I had a Dairy Farm....

First of all, except for the last two dogs, all the dogs chose ME and were not really 'sought.' My dogs, except for the last two, were rescues. There was Max. Husky/shepherd mix. Friend was going to take him and the dog would have been relegated to a life on a chain out back and he was just too bright eyed for that. He came home with me. Great dog on the farm, in the car and at home!

Sheba was on a neighbor's farm. She had been dropped off, pregnant. Had her puppies and they did not feed her. She hunted and killed woodchi=ucks, rabbits and rats to feed here puppies. They gave away her puppies and they were going to take Sheba to the pound.. she was a black lab mix of some kind who just took to me, so she came home with me and now I had Sheba and Max. Of course, Sheba was spayed and brought UTD on shots.. you know..that whole routine.

I had these two REALLY GOOD dogs for years. Time was not an issue, since I was a dairy farmer. They came with me wherever I went from field to barn.

Then there was George. He was on Death Row at the pound. I took him home and trained him.. had him vaccinated/neutered.. all of that. He was 5 months old when I got him. He was such a NICE dog... but man oh man was he ever allergic to cow poop. He was well trained and I used a crate.. but his allergies just could not be handled by him or by me. I ended up taking him back to the shelter and he was adopted out 3 more times and each time he went right THROUGH a glass window or door when left in the house.. and eventually George ran out of chances.. All because no one wanted to be "cruel" and use a crate. I will always feel very badly about George even tho, to this day, I know he just would have been miserable sick ALL the time if he had stayed with me. The shelter has, BTW, a requirement that if a pet doesn't work out that you return that pet to them (better than most BYB's!).

Someone who was doing designer breeding (Golden/Lab cross) could not sell the pups so gave me one (this was the days before the designer breed thing so he essentially made mutts). Rass was just a GREAT dog. Went every where with me including when I went out on the horse. Had her for years. A very sweet dog.

Then there was Oreo. A 6 week old Puppy due to be euthanized. Long haired Heinz 57 varieties dog that picked me. She lived 15 years. Good dog.

Next I went to a breeder and got Kazi. She was a GSD and my first GSD. I saw her out with her litter mates and she picked me. One of the best I ever had.. worked cattle for me, helped my Dad (who is hearing impaired).. a WONDERFUL dog. She would obey any command I gave her. EXCELLENTLY trained dog. In the litter she was neither the runt nore the biggest puppy and she was not the aloof puppy or the friendliest. She was calm and interested in me. Perfect. Passed on just shy of 14.

And now I have Atka. She was chosen from 3 dogs left of a litter.. and she was slated to be campaigned on the breed show circuit.. OR her sister was slated to be shown.. they could not decide. I picked Atka because she showed interest in me.. and did that counting thing that herding dogs do (or that my last dog would do). She would play with her sibs then make her rounds checking all the people and the two cats and then go back and play. Her demeaner was one of calm acceptance with interest in me. She just was the right dog and that was that.

In the last two dogs from breeders, I knew what I wanted and that is more honed each time I do this. Neither breeder picked the dog for me and neither breeder really asked me enough questions IMO. Both breeders had a return guarantee and both insisted on the "no breeding" check box on the papers. I read the pedigree and, with Kazi, they lineage was all OFA Excellent or Very Good back a few generations. She was from parents imported directly from (then) East Germany.

Atka was a bit different. Her dam was not OFA certified but both the dam's parents were "very good" while her sire's line was impeccable. The breeder also had older siblings (full) of Ataka and a full sister to Atka's mother (Atka's Mother had to be PTS due to Breat Cancer that manifested itself after she was pregnant).

She is working out to be a VERY GOOD DOG. Very physically sound and mentally soild. High bite threshold, no agressiveness, and she LIKES to HERD, like my last dog!

Before getting my second GSD I did research Border Collies. I decided against the breed due to their extremely high drive and, since I am no longer on the farm and have to work M-F I was afraid a BC would be too high drive. Well, Atka is higher drive than Kazi and, from what I have learned, every bit as high drive as a BC.

The main thing in getting a dog is that I know what I want. I really do. I also know how much time I have (more than many as I am single and have no children). I thought about this for a year, with the 6 months prior to the actual getting of the dog being intense. I researched the BC breed extensively.. talked with other BC people and those who compete these dogs in stuff like herding and agility.

I wanted a dog that could tolerate going hiking with me, going for short runs with my bike, was good to train, friendly, smart, good with the cats and who would give it up and lie down when I ran out of gas! I got all of that except for the last.. and that has worked out OK. She doesn't allow me to be a slacker and boy am I FIT! LOL

I put up facilities (fenced area out back which gets used infrequently), got crates, bowls, leads etc. I thought I might be interested in Agility so went to a couple of trials (and I am interested) and thought about the BC.. but then ended up with a GSD again.

So, everything said above is so good. thinking to yourself, why am i getting a dog is just so important to do. Beyond that, thinking, do I have the time and patience for a dog and its training is just as important.

A dog is, typically, a 12-15 year committment. It is so important to realize this and really THINK about it.

TY CSP for posting this thread. I had thought of doing something similar but you beat me to it and, from the looks of it, put it out there better than I would have anyhow.

[tcasby]

For those of you who read Marley and Me - Was Marley a good dog?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tcasby

For those of you who read Marley and Me - Was Marley a good dog?

If you're accepting my premise, Marley was not a good dog because his owners did not make good choices. His owners would not have gone through all the trouble that led them to call him the "worse dog ever", had they made better choices. This is the point of the thread tcasby. What the dog ends up being, is another story and responsibility, one not being discussed in this thread.

Not many people know some breeders guarantee their pups will be potty trained before entering their home. Not many people know some breeders require training, and from specific schools. Had Marley's owners not bought Marley from a BYB, they would have some insurances that would prevent Marley from being labeled "worst dog ever".

[harrise]

Indeed Curb... This thread is a thinker. I don't think my post was very helpful to your overall objective, but trying to get that frame of mind on such an emotional and subjective topic is quite difficult. Keep on keeping us in line.
That guy was on Dog Wisperer ya know? With another "bad dog"...

[tcasby]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If you're accepting my premise, Marley was not a good dog because his owners did not make good choices. His owners would not have gone through all the trouble that led them to call him the "worse dog ever", had they made better choices. This is the point of the thread tcasby. What the dog ends up being, is another story and responsibility, one not being discussed in this thread.

Not many people know some breeders guarantee their pups will be potty trained before entering their home. Not many people know some breeders require training, and from specific schools. Had Marley's owners not bought Marley from a BYB, they would have some insurances that would prevent Marley from being labeled "worst dog ever".

Would the authors have traded their life with Marley for the perfectly bred lab they have now? The one featured on the Dog Whisperer because it was killing chickens?

[Mr Pooch]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

So I ask you then[i], where do good dogs come from

Havnt been through this whole thread curb so i cant comment too much(i will read all of it soon though )

IMO,this question im responding from is simple,Good dogs come from good people(breeder wise)

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by tcasby

Would the authors have traded their life with Marley for the perfectly bred lab they have now? The one featured on the Dog Whisperer because it was killing chickens?

Probably not. But if you've ever sat at the surrender desk at your local shelter, you'd know many people regret the choices they make. There's a difference between ownership, which comes with its own responsibility and rewards, and pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here. If you don't understand there is a difference between the two, and that we're not talking about post-purchase responsibility, you clearly don't understand what this thread is about, and I kindly ask that you not take it off-topic.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

..pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here.

Pre purchase thinking is so important.. the Knee Jerk reaction of seeing a puppy and bying it because it was "so cute" is the reason why, with their owners in tears, so many dogs end up with surrender papers at the shelter.

It is also the reason why so many BYB's are in business and STILL using those puppy sales to pay for their house additions.

FWIW one of the BC people told me I would likely be a great BC owner because I really thought about what one of these dogs entailed BEFORE getting one.

I will get a BC for my second dog.. when I have thoroughy thought thru this and if I figure out the whole Second Dog thing (financially as well as work load).

[harrise]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

So I ask you then, where do good dogs come from? What do I need to do as a buyer, adopter, or foster to find a good dog? Where should I start? What do I need to know? What questions should I ask? What red flags should I look for?

I apologize for wasting space, after re-reading and re-reading your original post, I understand maybe slightly better...

First I would say you need to know the worst can possibly happen.


... and, are you prepared to replace the couch, get a new transmission in the just broken car, have the obstuction in the dog's digestive system surgically removed, go through recovery with the dog, get up early to walk the healthy dog, all at once while continuing a typical weekly shcedule? It's not as far off as it sounds. I had the entire pack go through different injuries in the span of six weeks, plus nearly $600 in heating bill because of leaky doors. Ugh, we are all still here and recently all healthy.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by harrise

I apologize for wasting space, after re-reading and re-reading your original post, I understand maybe slightly better...

I actually thought your first post had many valid points, especially in terms of being prepared in evaluating an adult dog or shelter dog.

And certainly, preparing for the things that make come with dog ownership is necessary too. It goes back to the question, should I own a dog? If one can't handle a dog who may eat your couch, perhaps a dog is not what you really want.

[Dogstar]

On the original quote... EB White had collies at the height of their popularity. Before the heritability of CEA was known, I subject that finding a healthy collie WAS pretty much a crap shoot.

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but had to say that first. :P

[tcasby]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Probably not. But if you've ever sat at the surrender desk at your local shelter, you'd know many people regret the choices they make. There's a difference between ownership, which comes with its own responsibility and rewards, and pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here. If you don't understand there is a difference between the two, and that we're not talking about post-purchase responsibility, you clearly don't understand what this thread is about, and I kindly ask that you not take it off-topic.

Sorry, I think we just have different concepts of "goodness". I believe mine coincides more with Mr. Whites. One of the reasons I like Doodles so much is there natural tendency towards my idea of "goodness".
What you are referring to I would call "soundness". I agree well bred dogs more more likely to be sound physically and mentally.

[Mr Pooch]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Pre purchase thinking is so important.. the Knee Jerk reaction of seeing a puppy and bying it because it was "so cute" is the reason why, with their owners in tears, so many dogs end up with surrender papers at the shelter.

It is also the reason why so many BYB's are in business and STILL using those puppy sales to pay for their house additions.

FWIW one of the BC people told me I would likely be a great BC owner because I really thought about what one of these dogs entailed BEFORE getting one.

I will get a BC for my second dog.. when I have thoroughy thought thru this and if I figure out the whole Second Dog thing (financially as well as work load).

Agree totally,however depending on how you "measure" a BYB,ive known some that have rehomed their pups responsibly and kept track on their dogs offspring continuesly and i have also known people that have phurchased KC registered dogs in a real bad state.

In saying this i dont agree with BYB.