[Curbside Prophet]

I really feel like anyone who is deciding on buying a designer dog, needs to understand some basic genetics to understand that designer dogs are not a good idea. Let me attempt to explain this simple concept to those of you who convienently overlook the genetics.

Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) developed basic laws of genetics using crosses between pea plants with different qualities...green or yellow peas, tall or short plants, etc. The same principles, now called Mendelian genetics, also apply to dogs. The most basic genetic scenario is where a gene on a specific locus determines each trait...the location of a particular gene is called the locus of the gene. For example, a straight or curly coat might be determined by two different versions of the same gene. These alternative versions, which differ slightly in their DNA sequence, are called alleles. An individual dog inherits one allele at this coat-type locus from each parent. The alleles may be the same or they may be different. If they are the same, the individual is homozygous at that locus. If they are different, the individual is heterozygous.

Closely bred dogs tend to be homozygous at the loci that determine coat type. When you breed a dog that is homozygous for one coat type to a dog that is homozygous for a different coat type, then you get a litter of puppies that are all heterozygous at that locus. In reality, inheritance of coat type can be more complicated than that represented by simple Mendelian inheritance, but the basic principle is the same. All the Labradoodles in the litter will have similar coat types...in this case, wavy and low shedding, the result of the combination of the different alleles of their two parents.

However, you can't breed one Labradoodle to another Labradoodle and get Labradoodle offspring, because they aren't a pure breed. You are instead breeding a heterozygote to another heterozygote. In this case, you will have some puppies that are more like Labs, some that are more like Poodles, and potentially everything in between. This is because these are mixes bred to mixes and not true-breeding individuals. The other thing to remember is that hereditary problems like hip dysplasia are present in both breeds and are not eliminated by cross-breeding.

So there in lies the problem, how do you fabricate a standard that's uniform when the offspring can be of any coat A-Z, and develop genetic tests for the offspring for when they breed? What will happen to the litter of puppies that don't meet your standard poo and doodle owners? If you can't develop a standard that is unique, how will you be able to prove conformation? If you can't prove conformation, how am I suppose to know that your're doing everything responsible as a breeder? If you're not doing everything responsible as a breeder, why should I give you my money for a pup? Give me nothing to prove the worth of your breeding program, and you will not see a single cent from me. I'll enjoy my shelter mutt, thank you!

Poo-Mix Rescue Dogs

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I really would like to understand how you think a cockapoo or labradoodle owner is more likely to dump their dog than the owner of a purebred Golden Retriever or Springer Spaniel? And please don't just repeat the same old songs about quality and genetics and "it's not a breed" and millions of dogs are euthanised every year. Those all sound good, but don't address the issue.

.

Well for one thing anyone getting a purebreed from a responsible breeder will be contracted to return the dog to the breeder, Ive yet to hear of a doodle breeder that does that.

Responsible breeders dont just ask a few questions, they look very hard at propective families who are on the waiting lists for puppies not even conceived yet, so these families are willing to wait for the right dog from the right breeder.

I think the problem is more to do with caring where your dog comes from and the ones left behind in the byb or puppy mill to carry on churning out puppies in horrible conditions thats what I just couldnt buy into.

[tully]

First off, I know a labdoodle is a cross and I know what a goldendoodle is. I have owned dogs my whole life. I am not a novice dog owner. I also did a lot of research before I got my doodle.

Secondly, my breeder has bred standard poodles and golden retrievers for over 20 years before she decided to do this. They are all AKC registered and they are show dogs.
She feeds them the raw food diet and she is an inspected licensed large dog breeder. So, sorry I trust her credentials.

You keep talking about genetics. The breeders of the doodle are getting all the genetic information to claim them as a breed. Also, both her standards and goldens are all tested for everything you are talking about.

The doodle was first created to be a service dog for those who where allergic to shedding dogs. This was a noble attempt to help others. YEs, some shed, some don't. Mine doesn't. I would never get a dog on that point but if you need a service dog and are allergic it is a chance they will not shed.

I think you all need to do more research because you are incorrect in your statments. You all sound quite fanatic and it is hard to have a conversation with a fanatic. And, as the others posted there are many dogs that are in rescue and are aggressive and mis-bred. Again, I am not saying you should just mix any breed and make a designer dog; however, I think the golden doodle is a legitmate breed and will become registerd as a breed. We will see but I think I am correct. Again, all the breeds we have many came into being this same way.

[MagicToller]

I think the golden doodle is a legitmate breed

Where's their standard?

" There are currently no size classifications for the Goldendoodle. It is difficult for a hybrid litter to "breed true"; that is, it is difficult to know exactly what size a Goldendoodle will grow to as an adult, regardless of parental size. "

[Keno's Mom]

I don't care if this "breeder" has breed both poodles and golden retrievers and they are show dogs..........NO ethical breeder will deliberatly cross 2 different breeds to create the designer dog! That is just plain stupid! While her poodles and her goldens are AKC registered, NONE OF HER GOLDENDOODLES ARE REGISTERED! They can't be. They are NOT a legit breed - they are a mutt or mixed breed - call it anything you want but do NOT call it a breed. There is no consistency in type. What "standard" is this breeder going by?

So why would this so called breeder be creating designer dogs? She cannot control the type of dogs that result from cross breeding. And she certainly can't control breeding of 2 goldendoodles.

It would be the same thing as if a cat breeder was working with 2 completely different breeds - such as a shorthair burmese and a long hair main coon - you would keep the breeding to MC x MC and Burm x Burn - you would NEVER create a designer cat of a MC and Burm for a fad.

[lawlady]

Out of curiosity i looked online at labradoodle and goldendoodle 'breeders' websites. Several who advertised themselves as 'responsible, experienced breeders' were selling their pups for upwards of $2500.00. One was $3000.00. It's all about the money and supply-and-demand. They saw the window of opportunity and flew right through it. Responsible breeders *don't* take a breed they have devoted their life to and start crossing it. That makes absolutely no sense.

It infuriates me to no end to see irresponsible breeding, and that is what that is. And i think people who spend that kind of money on an unregisterable, unshowable, unproven dog need a swift kick in the seat of their pants.

There. I feel better now. I just can't believe the prices these dogs are going for...

Linda and Zavie

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by tully

I think you all need to do more research because you are incorrect in your statments. You all sound quite fanatic and it is hard to have a conversation with a fanatic. And, as the others posted there are many dogs that are in rescue and are aggressive and mis-bred. Again, I am not saying you should just mix any breed and make a designer dog; however, I think the golden doodle is a legitmate breed and will become registerd as a breed. We will see but I think I am correct. Again, all the breeds we have many came into being this same way.

Yes, it is easy to sound fanatic when you're watching your breed carelessly bred to each other and any other cute little small dog for the sake of money. I know so many people truly trying to improve the papillon in America- and the lines are getting better and better. It's disgusting to us that these people would breed less than qualified dogs together because celebrity X said it was cool to have a little cute dog- or better yet, a little cute mix. Might as well pay more for a poorly bred papi-poo than a show line papillon.

[Weebles]

I don't understand what is wrong with creating a new breed. Those of you who talked about genetics are correct in saying that at first, you cannot tell what traits the puppies will have. However, you didn't mention that over time, these mixes can develop into their own standard by selecting dogs with certain traits and breeding them together. Think about breeds like the Silky Terrier who started as a mix between the Australian Terrier and the Yorkie, and now have their own standard. I would bet that most breeds started this way, so just imagine if everyone had always opposed designer dogs - we wouldn't have very many breeds!

Granted, there are a lot of irresponsible breeders (both for designer dogs and for purebreds), but I'm willing to bet that there have always been irresponsible breeders, and our current breeds developed just fine.

[Curbside Prophet]

I write this as light heartedly as one can be...

Fanatic? I didn't know defending all purebreds would be considered fanatical versus someone who's defending one concept of breeding (designer dogs). But ok, yes then by your definition and assumption I am fanatical. I need to do my research? Ok, lets do some research together of this claim about a non shedding, allergy free dog.

Let's start with the facts... Fur is not the problem, and if you're assuming animal allergies are caused by fur, you're wrong. Allergies are triggered and aggravated by proteins secreted by oil glands and shed with dander. These same proteins can be found in a dog's saliva, and their urine. What is dander you ask? Dander is microscopic particles of skin, fur and hair that animals continually shed. The proteins and other substances that cause an person's immune system to react are called allergens. So I must ask, are these doodle breeders breeding out skin, saliva, and urine? Because a pee-less dog would end most of our threads on housetraining. And I'm not sure how one will cope with a dog that has constant dry mouth, but I'm sure that's not an easy one to overcome. And if they're removing the largest organ on a dog's body, the skin, what an interesting animal doodles must be...I'm not sure if I would classify them as dogs then.

But wait, we all know that the severity of a reaction to allergens varies from person to person. So logically we could say that a person with a lower tollerance to allergens should have a smaller dog, right?...since the larger a dog is the more dander they have to shed. So I guess the next step for doodles is to breed them down to pocket size? I can see Paris Hilton now walking down the red carpet with three micro doodles sticking their head out of her hand bag. Wonderful! Contrary to the belief doodle and poo breeders would like buyers to believe, there is no such thing as an allergen free dog. People who suffer from allergies have symptoms whether the dog is present or not...period. What allergy sufferers need is not a mutt claimed to be allergy free and isn't, but an allergy specialist. Again, if the visionaries of doodles continue to promote their dogs like this, they've got it all messed up.

Originally Posted by Weebles

I don't understand what is wrong with creating a new breed. Those of you who talked about genetics are correct in saying that at first, you cannot tell what traits the puppies will have. However, you didn't mention that over time, these mixes can develop into their own standard by selecting dogs with certain traits and breeding them together.

What's wrong with double-doodles and triple-doodles is that with their popularity soaring, doodles have become the "Breed du Jour" and pet stores, puppy mills and backyard breeders are capitalizing on it's fame, selling fluffy puppies of dubious parentage and breeding to an unsuspecting public world-wide. Unless you're buying your doodle from Tegan Park Research Center, you're handicapped, and aren't allergy tested for doodles, you're buying into the fad.

[Weebles]

Interesting... I would think the solution to this problem would be advocating and enforcing better regulations on ALL puppy breeding, rather than denouncing a certain kind of puppy because it is popular.

[peace36]

Weebles. your resplies really make a lot of sense. to me.

Curbside. I read some of yours but some of your posts are just too darn long It reminds me of when I was growing up and I had to sit through a really long boring monatanous (SP??) adult mass uuugggh!!! Try as I might I just could not keep my mind focused in on it. Your posts are too long for me!!

I bet someone else maybe can read the whole thing though.

If I went to get a dog and some one said here is a purebred poodle with award winning parents and lifetime guarentee and only has the best genes and they said oh and here is a cute little malti-poo mutt they are both the same price guess what I would have picked the malt-poo because that is what I prefer.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Weebles

Interesting... I would think the solution to this problem would be advocating and enforcing better regulations on ALL puppy breeding, rather than denouncing a certain kind of puppy because it is popular.

You should read more about my posts on breeding in general. This is a thread on designer dogs.

Originally Posted by peace36

Curbside. I read some of yours but some of your posts are just too darn long It reminds me of when I was growing up and I had to sit through a really long boring monatanous (SP??) adult mass uuugggh!!! Try as I might I just could not keep my mind focused in on it. Your posts are too long for me!!

I bet someone else maybe can read the whole thing though.

If I went to get a dog and some one said here is a purebred poodle with award winning parents and lifetime guarentee and only has the best genes and they said oh and here is a cute little malti-poo mutt they are both the same price guess what I would have picked the malt-poo because that is what I prefer.

I won't comment on you comprehension or aptitude, but I'm sure you're capable of both.

[Weebles]

[quote=Curbside Prophet;36262]You should read more about my posts on breeding in general. This is a thread on designer dogs.

Designer dogs AND the breeding of designer dogs. I think the post on Mendel led the thread a little more into breeding.

[peace36]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

You should read more about my posts on breeding in general. This is a thread on designer dogs.



I won't comment on you comprehension or aptitude, but I'm sure you're capable of both.

awww, thanks curbside. Really the way I see it this is all not that complicated. I can see where you are coming from with the facts that I have read that you posted. I am just not into showing or breeding and think you and many people are getting way too upset about the designer dogs. I have pure breeds and mutts both and I really do not care if they are pure or not the problem is the people who do not keep and take care of them.

Fact my mutts had less medical problems than the purebreeds and better temperments. That may not hold true for everyone but it does for the dogs I have had. I know you will say the pure breed must have came from a bad breeder if that is someones response I think it is lame and just and easy out.

[Laurelin]

I shall repeat myself: WHY is it okay in this day and age for someone to breed dogs without utilizing all the technology and benefits we have available to us nowadays to try to ensure as much as we humanly can that we are producing the healthiest, highest quality dogs possible?

To me it has nothing to do with designers, but designers are the latest fad. It has to do with people beig lazy, selfish, and wanting a fad. The breeders don't put the time or effort into the dogs, they want the money, and people want a dog that is advertised as not acting like a dog or shedding like a dog. People shouldn't promote unethical breeders. Period. Doesn't matter whether the breeder is purebred or mutt. The only problem is I have NEVER seen someone I consider reputable breeding mixes. (with the possible exception of one or two cockapoo breeders as previously stated)

[skunkstripe]

FWIW the "Labradoodle" breeders in Australia have been going about the breeding practices in a manner which strongly suggests a degree of responsiblity that has been lacking in the US.
http://www.laa.org.au/
I am not intending to condone the willy-nilly creation of F1 crosses, but perhaps someone would care to comment on the information in this site. It might make you cautious about bashing a "Labradoodle" owner from Australia.

[Laurelin]

The Australian Labradoodle imo could've been a great idea, but unfortunately it isn't what they meant for it to be most of the time. I can't fault the people originally working on a low shedding guide dog- they seem to do everything right. They have multiple generations, and are focusing on a certain temperament and coat type (low shedding). They prefrom health tests and I'm pretty sure they keep a closed registry. But these same people are NOT the ones in the US selling F1 dogs for thousands of dollars and claiming all dogs to be shed-free. What happened and is what is seen nowadays in the United States is that someone saw a labradoodle, went 'Oh cute!' and began mass producing them and eventually a zillion other crosses. It's happened with other types of dogs today, but unfortunately it happened to the designers when they were barely even established. At least with other dogs there were long time fanciers around to help maintain some quality within lines.

I know several labradoodles actually. On campus we have a guide dog training program and about half the dogs we get are labradoodles from a service dog breeder. The other half is from a golden breeder. I'm not sure what I think about that, but I know this breeder is not your average run of the mill designer breeder. They health test and DO breed for a specific coat type and service dog temperament.

just something for BOTH sides to keep in mind.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by skunkstripe

http://www.laa.org.au/
I am not intending to condone the willy-nilly creation of F1 crosses, but perhaps someone would care to comment on the information in this site.

The breeders at Tegan Park in Australia started their stock from labradors, poodles and labradoodles from Don Evans, another breeder who had discovered the breed independently of the Guide Dog Association. Those labradoodles were legitimate labradoodles, and they kept records of all subsequent breeding. They also determined which coats were low allergenic. They conducted extensive research and breeding programs to arrive at the dog that has become characterized as a "labradoodle". Contrary to popular knowledge, they are not the product of exclusively mixing in labradors and poodles. Other breeds were used occasionally, for certain characteristics.

The breeders at Tegan Park began calling their dogs, and those descended from that stock by breeders, "Australian labradoodles", to distinguish them from the labrador-poodle mixes that were being indiscriminately produced. The mixes were not quality controlled, many were allergenic, yet people with allergies were misled into buying them, expecting not to get allergic reactions.

However, the International Labradoodle Association (ILA) was set up (2004) originally to help maintain the quality and characteristics of the doodle designer dogs. Yet they now are seeking to call all labrador-poodle crosses "Australian labradoodles". If this is successful, consumers will have no way of knowing whether they are buying what they think they are, and what their health requirements determine they need. The end result will be more abandoned dogs being euthanased because of a careless association and even more careless breeders. Again, in order to be legit you have to separate yourself from what makes you a hybrid or mixed breed breeder. It's not an easy fight when you have associations like the ILA screwing up your vision.

[skunkstripe]

Curbside thank you that was very informative. I guess the logical solution would be to call the "legit" Labradoodles "Australian Labradoodles" to distinguish them from the F1 Labradoodles. Another solution might be to simply find another name entirely.

[Keno's Mom]

The last I heard about the Australian labradoodles is they quit the breeding as they were not really getting the desired results (and probably because of the flood of poodle-lab crosses showing up.

They couldn't get the consistency needed to really become a breed.