[DoggieLover]

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Well, then adopt from a shelter. Otherwise, you're feeding back yard breeders. BTW, just because you pay less does not mean you're getting a deal. Far from it. Though you may pay less in the short term, in the long run you may spend thousands in vet bills.

Why not just do it the right way, or adopt from a shelter?

I already explained why I didn't adopt from a shelter. Maybe if you had read my entire post you would have seen that part. Go back and read it again - look at what I wrote at the bottom. I'm not re-typing the whole thing again just because you didn't bother to read it.

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Actually, that is alot for one dog to produce. Bitches only go in heat from 2-4 times per year, depending on the breed or individual dog. So, if it was ONLY one dog being bred that much, then that is inhumane.

Dogs should only have a litter every two years, and no more then three litters in a life time for them to live a healthy life.

I went to my breeder's site and noticed that she has more than one female so this explains why she's able to have so many litters per year.

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by Keno's Mom

The last I heard about the Australian labradoodles is they quit the breeding as they were not really getting the desired results (and probably because of the flood of poodle-lab crosses showing up.

They couldn't get the consistency needed to really become a breed.

Have you considered that what you heard might NOT be correct. I just had a look at their website and the following was mentioned at this address:-
http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/

Guide Dogs Victoria
Guide Dogs FAQ's

What breeds of dogs are used?
In Australia, we use mainly Labradors. We have also crossed Labradors with Golden Retrievers, Curly-coat Retrievers and more recently, Standard Poodles, to produce the now well-known Labradoodle. In response to special requests, Guide Dogs Victoria may source other breeds, including German Shepherds from overseas Guide Dog Schools with whom Guide Dogs Victoria has a special relationship.

What are the reasons for experimenting with other breeds?
Some clients have a preference for a certain breed, and we try to meet their needs. The Labradoodle was bred by Guide Dogs Victoria particularly for people who have an allergy to dog hair. The aim was to breed from Guide Dog Victoria's Labrador brood bitches (which have an excellent temperament for Guide Dog work) with the Poodle (which does not shed its coat) to produce a dog that may be more suitable for people with allergies to dog hair.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

The Australian Labradoodle imo could've been a great idea, but unfortunately it isn't what they meant for it to be most of the time. I can't fault the people originally working on a low shedding guide dog- they seem to do everything right. They have multiple generations, and are focusing on a certain temperament and coat type (low shedding). They prefrom health tests and I'm pretty sure they keep a closed registry. But these same people are NOT the ones in the US selling F1 dogs for thousands of dollars and claiming all dogs to be shed-free. What happened and is what is seen nowadays in the United States is that someone saw a labradoodle, went 'Oh cute!' and began mass producing them and eventually a zillion other crosses. It's happened with other types of dogs today, but unfortunately it happened to the designers when they were barely even established. At least with other dogs there were long time fanciers around to help maintain some quality within lines.

Maybe some forum members might like to have a look at this website:-
Australian Labradoodle Club of America
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/

[DoggieLover]

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

BTW, just because you pay less does not mean you're getting a deal. Far from it. Though you may pay less in the short term, in the long run you may spend thousands in vet bills.

Same is true of shelter dogs, isn't it? And yet I don't see you trying to discourage people to adopt dogs from shelters because of possible high vet bills later down the road. Interesting...

[Quincy]

This is interesting in reference to their breeders, "must meet the following requirements", notice the MUST and this to health testing plus some other things, see at this address:-
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub...uirements.html

This is interesting, look down the list at this address and see:-
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test.html

"Labradoodles - OptiGen® prcd-PRA test"
also
"Cockapoos - OptiGen® prcd-PRA test"
and I suppose in time heaps more doggies will be added to the list.

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by DoggieLover

I realize that the ACHC and CKC and whatever else is out there isn't held in such high regard as the AKC. Frankly I could care less whether my dog is registered or not, I've had plenty of other animals such as horses that were not registered - papers don't mean squat to me because these animals are just pets/companions for me. I was just pointing out to another poster who was going on and on about titling that the parents can be registered with the AKC but the puppies obviously cannot. However, they can be registered with other organizations if registering/titling is of such importance to them. Again, this is important to some people, but not others..

My point on registering with dodgy registers was just that, they are worthless. If you dont care about how your dog was bred whether the lines were appropriate or not or even researched that unfortunately is your right.

Originally Posted by DoggieLover

I never said that pet dogs are treated "any less" than show dogs, but obviously if you just want a pet then you're not going to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to purchase the dog. Therefore, the way you would go about searching for the dog and your breeder requirements are different. First, ideally, you would check local shelters and if they don't have the particular kind of dog that you're looking for, then you would find a breeder who treats their dogs in a humane way, etc etc all of the points I mentioned before. However, I'm only paying $500 here whereas you may have spent anywhere from $1500 to $3000 on up for your AKC registered purebred titled and whatever else show dog. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend that much on a pet dog. Different standards...

Again I ask why should dogs being classed as just a pet be any less well bred than a show dog, why should the parents not be health tested for all the appropriate tests for the breeds? I repeat my question what did your breeder test for in the sire and dam of your puppy? Why should a puppy that is meant to be a pet have any less right to a healthy life than a show dog?

I went over your points in my previous posts and your ideas on breeders are simply inadequate.

Originally Posted by DoggieLover

Yeah, what's wrong with that??? 2-3 litters per year, in my opinion, is not someone who is re-breeding their bitch every chance they can get so as to get the most litters possible. With 2-3 litters per year, the breeder has plenty of time to care for/socialize the puppies and ensure they go to good homes. Please explain what the problem is here....

Frankly if you see no problem with puppy farming theres not really much point is there? How many bitches does your breeder actually have? How can she possibly care for 3 litters a year, as you say you are new to the dog world and hopefully you will become more aware of what should go into raising good puppies.

Originally Posted by DoggieLover

. This is my prerogative and it irks me that people think they can tell me exactly where I need to get my dog from when they know nothing of my background or experience with dogs.

Also just want to reiterate that I spent just as much on my designer dog as they're charging for some of the mixed-breed shelter puppies I've come across. So NO, I don't feel that I was ripped off - for the price I paid, it's pretty much comparable to the cost at a shelter, and in addition I am guaranteed that he had a great beginning, was socialized/trained from birth, and I can talk first-hand to the person who raised him.

Its a shame you didnt research byb's and puppy farmers at the same time.

Im pleased you can talk to her, can I ask what her answers were to questions like how many times a year the bitch is bred from, what health tests all her dogs have had and did she show you proof. I assume you saw the dam, where were she and the puppies kept, what sort of temperament did the mum have? How old was the mum and when was she first bred.

These are basic questions anyone would who is researching a breeder for any dog, show or pet would ask.

[tully]

Good point Doggie Lover. I made a similar point about 5 pages ago butttt some people want to ignore those points. Just like the fact my doode breeder said I want the dog back if it doesn't work and here is a 2 year health gurantee.

I also find it interesting that the same people told me I should be able to give my dog back to the breeder due to his seizures. Is that what you would do with your show dog? I find that offensive. My pup is a part of my family and I would never consider giving him back. Also, if I had rescued my doodle from a shelter these same people would be patting me on the back.

And, yes you do sound holier than though and that is why you had to preface that in your piece. You also said some people get dogs for themselves but others do it for the good of the animal. PLEASE! All of us don't do anything without an agenda or getting something back. Look at how you are telling us how saintly you are. You are getting something everytime you tell that story. Your ego also gets a big boost! Don't kid yourself you are getting something out of it! That is fine but at least be honest about it.

I also said in a past thread some of you say it is ok to buy a dog but really you look down on it. Again, God is the big picture not your beliefs. I say that whatever animal you end up with, no matter how you did, that is the animal that is suppose to be in your life. So, if I hadn't bought Tully I would have probably gotten him another way. Come on lets have a bigger picture here! This one is awful small!

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by DoggieLover

Same is true of shelter dogs, isn't it? And yet I don't see you trying to discourage people to adopt dogs from shelters because of possible high vet bills later down the road. Interesting...

No what we are trying to do is stop people buying into puppy farms, byb's and those who dont give a damn about dogs and see them just as money making machines.

Why would anyone discourage people to adopt a dog in need?

[Lorina]

Yes. Saving a life makes me happy. That's why I left a good career in IT to become a vet tech. I wanted a job that would give me personal satisfaction. Something that would make me feel like I actually accomplished something worthwhile at the end of the day.

I also wanted pets that give me personal satisfaction. Not just from the company they give me, but in knowing I'm giving them a better life than they would have had otherwise. I also have a formerly feral cat I tamed and rescued, and my other cat is one that I fostered when it was underage & underweight and would have been put to sleep. I didn't set out to look for a one-eyed dog, but the special needs animals tug at my heart, and I want to give animals a chance that others would overlook.

Yet you're the one making me out to be a bad person because I love and care about the underdogs. Maybe you're the one who needs a bigger picture. You can make all the excuses you want about how God put him in your life, but you chose to get him the way you did. I'm happy you're happy with him, but bringing God into it is a pretty lame way to relieve the guilt or whatever you're feeling. If you feel you make the right choice in buying your dog, that's fine. Be proud of the choice you made. Own your choice, don't blame it on God.

[tully]

I am not making you out to be the bad person. I said, you did sound holier than though in response to YOUR post-script.

I think it is great you want to help animals and rescue; however, it doesn't make you any more noble than any other pet owner that loves and takes care of their animal. If that is your calling, I believe God put that in your heart. When God puts something in our hearts as a calling, it comes from a greater place than our ego. That is what I believe anyway.

I think people like having pets and I don't think it really matters where you get them from. Whether it be a breeder, a shelter, a mutt, a dog found off the street, once we own the animal we are responsible for their welfare. I am not hung up on how people get their pets. I think there are people on this site that are very invested in how you get a pet. I am not one of those people.

I TRY, it is a daily challenge, not to condem or judge others because really I don't know the big picture. Who's to say what kind of life Tully would have had if I didn't get him? Just like it is a crap shoot the dog we get it is the same for the dog and his owner. You all keep saying there are soo many designer dogs in shelter so it is a good thing I got Tully! If I hadn't, maybe he would be there too. I just look at all of this more from a metaphysical/spiritual place not a scientific one.

I didn't see the last part of your post. I don't feel guilty about getting Tully and would get him again in a heart beat. I think you are having a hard time accepting that. I don't agree with your philosophy. God is in every single thing I do all day long so it would be impossible for me to disclude him from any part of my life.

I did not mean to hurt your feelings when I responded to the holier than though comment; however, in that piece, to me, you did sound holier than though. Maybe that was not your intent but that is how it came across on the post.

[lurcherloopy]

Originally Posted by tully

I think people like having pets and I don't think it really matters where you get them from. Whether it be a breeder, a shelter, a mutt, a dog found off the street, once we own the animal we are responsible for their welfare. I am not hung up on how people get their pets. I think there are people on this site that are very invested in how you get a pet. I am not one of those people.

.

But thats just the point, if people did care where their pets came from puppy mills and byb would soon be out of business.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Quincy

This is interesting in reference to their breeders, "must meet the following requirements", notice the MUST and this to health testing plus some other things, see at this address:-
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub...uirements.html

This is interesting, look down the list at this address and see:-
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test.html

"Labradoodles - OptiGen® prcd-PRA test"
also
"Cockapoos - OptiGen® prcd-PRA test"
and I suppose in time heaps more doggies will be added to the list.

Just a point of clarity here, these tests are only available to ALA accredited breeders. They're not available to Joe Blow breeding hybrid doodles. Any emerging breed must take this step before becoming recognized...IMO. But they've still got a long way to go.

Originally Posted by tully

Good point Doggie Lover. I made a similar point about 5 pages ago butttt some people want to ignore those points. Just like the fact my doode breeder said I want the dog back if it doesn't work and here is a 2 year health gurantee.

I also find it interesting that the same people told me I should be able to give my dog back to the breeder due to his seizures. Is that what you would do with your show dog? I find that offensive. My pup is a part of my family and I would never consider giving him back. Also, if I had rescued my doodle from a shelter these same people would be patting me on the back.

And, yes you do sound holier than though and that is why you had to preface that in your piece. You also said some people get dogs for themselves but others do it for the good of the animal. PLEASE! All of us don't do anything without an agenda or getting something back. Look at how you are telling us how saintly you are. You are getting something everytime you tell that story. Your ego also gets a big boost! Don't kid yourself you are getting something out of it! That is fine but at least be honest about it.

I also said in a past thread some of you say it is ok to buy a dog but really you look down on it. Again, God is the big picture not your beliefs. I say that whatever animal you end up with, no matter how you did, that is the animal that is suppose to be in your life. So, if I hadn't bought Tully I would have probably gotten him another way. Come on lets have a bigger picture here! This one is awful small!

Again, it's not about your relationship with your dog. It's about what people should look for between a bad breeder and a good one. If the terms that you signed were acceptable to you, but aren't everything a breeder can do to insure they are giving you the best animal possible, don't be offended by those who advocate for more responsibility. Because to do so, would be to advocate the alternative.

[Lorina]

Originally Posted by tully

You all keep saying there are soo many designer dogs in shelter so it is a good thing I got Tully! If I hadn't, maybe he would be there too.

Holy rationalizations, Batman!

I hate quoting myself, but...

Originally Posted by Lorina

Yes, you love your dog and you'll keep it for life, but that's one dog, out of how many from a litter, and out of how many litters that breeder churns out every year? Multiply that by the hundreds or thousands of other mixed breed or otherwise irresponsible breeders. Do you honestly believe they all found such good homes with families who will keep them for life? How many of them, or the offspring of those dogs, are going to end up in shelters? And how about the dogs' parents, who'll be used for breeding purposes until they develop testicular, ovarian or mammary cancers, or pyometras (infected, pus-filled uterus - very gross if you've ever seen or smelled one up close and personal)? What becomes of the moneymakers when they no longer make anyone money?

My feelings are not hurt by being called holier than thou. I was perfectly aware of how that post could be construed, or I wouldn't have added that comment.

However, I do find it offensive that you think my view is narrow. My eyes have been opened wide up by working in animal care, even though it's just been three years. I used to be ignorant of the overpopulation problem. I had no idea how many dogs and cats were put to sleep every single day just one half mile from my house. I didn't know the smoke coming from the chimney of the animal shelter was from the bodies of euthanized animals being cremated. Believe me, I wish I could get the image out of my head of bodies lined up on the floor, some with needles still in their hearts or paws. I wish I could forget the smell of burnt flesh. Having seen what I've seen and knowing what I know, I can not approve of breeders who willingly contribute to the overpopulation problem, all to line their own pockets.

[tully]

You are misunderstanding my post. I did not say you were narrow. I meant this whole topic is myopic. Everyone is going to have their biased opinions, me, you, curbside prophet, etc. We all have had our own experiences and from that comes our understanding, views etc. My point of view is esoteric in nature so it really is a different thought system.

I am saying that in the Big Picture of the Universe this is a small conversation. What I mean is there are no accidents in the Universe. The animals in our lives are there for a reason and a purpose. I am saying in the bigger picture the animal you are with, regardless of how you got him/her, you have a responsibility for. Their souls are in your care. You are both teachers for one another. It doesn't really matter where they came from.

It sounds like you are called to be an advocate for shelters and rescue animals. That is your life journey. I respect that is your passion; however, it isn't mine. I am not saying there isn't an over population of animals. I agree the shelter and pounds are dismal. I have had mutts from the shelter and I have had breeds that I bought. At this point in my life, I choose to buy my dogs. You choose to get them from the shelter. That is all I am saying. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I am offering a different view on the subject. That is all.

[Curbside Prophet]

Well my view is to consider adoption first, and if adoption offers nothing to you, do the best you can in finding the best breeder possible. I'm merely trying to offer techniques in finding the best breeder possible because there is a direct link between bad breeders and "designer dogs", while emphasizing that there are millions of unique designer dogs sitting in your shelter today waiting for a home. You may be able to rationalize why your dog is in your life, but there are others reading this thread who have yet to decide on where they will get there next dog. To them I write...

[blackrose]

Originally Posted by tully

At this point in my life, I choose to buy my dogs.

I think that is what it is mainly about....no one has any problem when people buy a dog from a responsible breeder. But since 'doodle breeders aren't responsible....you see the delima.
The person who cares about responsible dog ownership/purchasing says, "Don't buy from an irresponsible breeder!" They tell this to anyone who is going to/has purchased from one. They educate and tell them their other options. For people with purebreds, the options are shelters, rescues, adoptions, and reputable/ethical/responsible breeders. Since no mixed breed breeder is responsible, that cuts the "Responsible breeder" option out for the people who want to purchase a mixed breed.

If you think about it, it isn't a Poodle mix debate....it is an irresponsible breeder debate. People who own 'Doodles just think we are trying to cram the, "All breeders are evil, adopt from a shelter" thought down their throat because that is the only option availible to them to get a mixed breed responsibly....from a shelter or rescue.

So its not the fact that you choose to buy your dog...a lot of people buy their dogs. It is a fact of where you buy that dog from. If someone told us, "I'm going to go buy a Yorkie puppy from Wizard of Claws, any thoughts?" We'd all scream, "NOOOOOOOO!! That is an irresponsible breeder (PUPPY MILL!!!), you want to buy one from a reputable breeder or adopt from a shelter."
If someone says, "I'm going to go buy a Goldendoodle from a breeder, any thoughts?" We say, "NOOOOOOO! That is from an irresponsible breeder. You can't buy one from a reputable breeder because there are none, so if you want one, you'll need to adopt."
You can always choose to not do that, but then you have bought a dog irresponsibly. You may not regreat doing it (who would, it is their dog!), but it fuels the fire for that irresponsible breeder to just churn out more dogs.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Well my view is to consider adoption first, and if adoption offers nothing to you, do the best you can in finding the best breeder possible.

Ah, there we go. This makes it so much easier to say. lol Since there are no good breeders to buy from, you have to adopt! lol And people are always complaining, "There aren't any 'Doodles in a shelter near me, Wah wah wah wah wah." There haven't been any near me for a couple of months (in shelters...I don't know how many 'need to rehome' ads I've seen), but low and behold, there is an intire newborn litter of Labradoodles up for adoption about thirty minutes away from me. You just have to wait, because buying a dog responsibly takes time.

[tully]

Well, at the end of the day these are all opinions. Mine is no more or less relavant then yours. I simply don't agree with you. I think my doodle breeder is very responsible. I have stayed in touch with her for over a year. She feeds her dogs the raw food diet, She shows her AKC breeds and often comes home with a first or second place, and she tests her dogs.

This is a fruitless conversation because you think you are right for everybody. You can only speak for yourself and you own conscience. It gets a little scary when you start trying to speak for all or issuing an edict of your own belief.

Just like our animals come into our lives for a reason so do the people. Nothing is ever black and white.

There will be people that listen and agree with you and those that listen and or agree with me. It is like the vegans I worked with when I was at a holisitic dog food store. I was desecrated by them because I choose to eat meat. These arguments usually took place in front of the raw food meat section. How apropos. These same people who were soo indignant about animal rights but were totally pro abortion. So, it was kind of hard to take them seriously.

For me, this is the end of this discussion. We aren't going to agree and I think I have made all the points I felt lead to do. Thanks for the interesting debate. I guess we will see what happens with the doodle. I know mine is safe, happy, healthy and in good care. At the end of the day, I am blessed with two great animals that have enriched my life.

Check out these two web sites:
www.family-pets.com
and www.goldendoodles.com
Genetics
Here is expert from link. More on link:

"Hybrid vigour is not a theory, it is the name given to describe something that happens repeatably throughout all species in the animal and plant kingdom. When unrelated breeds of any animal species are mated the offspring in the first generation will be more healthy, fertile, and (in animals) mentally stable than either parent breed. This first F1 (Filial1) generation as the geneticists call it, will be intermediate in characterisics to the parent breeds and the offspring will resemble each other."

[Laurelin]

If you truly don't care about where your dog came from then that is sad. Like I said, I am no better as my first dog is from a BYB. They weren't bad, evil, horrible people, but they should NEVER have bred dogs. I wish you could see the difference. I love my dog, I'm glad I got her, and I'd never give her up. However, I've since researched and vowed to do the right thing from then on out (which I have) instead of the easy way out. Buying a dog responsibly takes time. People nowadays want an instant gratification for everything and use that as an excuse. Most people who buy from purebred responsible breeders wait a long time and/or travel quite a ways for their dog. It has nothing to do with showing- it's my responsibility as a pet buyer to put the effort into buying a dog that I know was bred right from a breeder that does the best they can to produce few healthy litters out of love and desire to better the breed.

None of you have shown us anything to say otherwise. I've still yet to see a site of a poodle/golden or poodle/lab or anything that breeds responsibly. (And we've been through that the ALA doesn't count as your average American designer breeder). Like I've said, show me these so called responsible designer breeders you all defend so much.

God has nothing to do with pet buying. Pet buying is a choice. Do you want to put in the effort or not? It's foolish to blame me buying my BYB dog on God or fate... I decided to. I am greatful she's in my life, but I still was the one to purchase her.

Not to be rude or anythig, but I don't think you know much about showing. 1st and 2nd could mean quite a few thing.s I'll assume you just aren't familiar with the terms. 1st is a class win, then there's Reserve dog/bitch, best of winners, best of opposite sex, and best of breed. And that's just in breed competition. But like I said, anyone showing and crossbreeding would NOT be allowed in breed clubs and would definitely be looked down upon at shows. They'd probably lose all access to other breeders' lines (aka high quality dogs) for fear of them being used in the latest designer cross.

And no offense, but your doodle is just a year old. Most health problems show up later in life. I hope you don't have to deal with any, but it's a bit premature to say that he's healthy...

Originally Posted by tully

"Hybrid vigour is not a theory, it is the name given to describe something that happens repeatably throughout all species in the animal and plant kingdom. When unrelated breeds of any animal species are mated the offspring in the first generation will be more healthy, fertile, and (in animals) mentally stable than either parent breed. This first F1 (Filial1) generation as the geneticists call it, will be intermediate in characterisics to the parent breeds and the offspring will resemble each other."

Okay...

A- it's harder to apply things like this to domestic animals.

B- Hybrid vigour generally is a term used to describe a certain trait. In one trait, a heterozygote might have advantages that a homozygous individual does not. Usually, the homozygous dominant individual is the wild type (part of the reason domestics are more difficult as there is so much variation and no set 'wild type') and the homozygous recessive is lethal. the heterozygote (or carrier) would be healthy and still have benefits of having the carried recessive trait. One of the most prominent examples of this is that people who carry sickle cell anemia (but do not have it) have a much lower chance of getting malaria. Therefore, the hybrid state is healthier.

Combining dogs without testing is not a way to try for healthier dogs. If health was the motive it would be done via carefully planned crosses to related breeds with lines known to compliment each other. That's not what's being done.

A poodle from a mill with many genetic issues crossed with a golden from a mill with more gentic issues will most likely not be healthier than a golden or a poodle from a reputable breeder. The puppies may or may not be healthier than the parent poodle or the parent golden but not a well bred dog. It all depends on the individuals used in the crosses. What do they carry? If the line is not well known, they should NOT be bred.

The term hybrid vigour DOES NOT apply to domestic animals in almost any situation where it is used. It is used when a crossed offspring does end up healthier than it's parents- generally only at ONE locus. (IE- you cannot say an animal will be healhtier at all loci just because it is a hybrid) Crossed offspring are not always healthier than the parents. Hybrids that are healthier than the parents are said to have hybrid vigor or outbreeding enhancement. Hybrids that are less healthy than the parents are said to have suffered outbreeding depression. Both happen quite frequently- it depends on the genes and how they interact with each other. Are they fully dominant? Is the mutation recessive? Incompletely dominant? Does codominance occur? Is there any epistasis? Etc.

The term hybrid vigor as applied to domestic dogs is just a term used to add some sort of 'scientific' backing for what they are doing. It is being completely misconstrued and twisted to suit their own ends.

[wendallb]

Dog dumping,

I live in the country and it seems that unhappy dog owners think the country is a nice place to get rid of there dogs.

Every dog I have is a dumped dog and this really makes me angry as I'm sure it does you.

I once found a litter of pups dumped right down the road from where I live and without help they would not live. I took the pups to the local SPCA and paid them to take the pups so they would not die.

This is a real problem for people that live out in the country and wish we could stop this practice.

I will get off my soapbox now!

All the Best,

[Keno's Mom]

Tully,

I just don't understand how in the world you can consider your dog's breeder a "responsible" breeder when she is deliberatly mixing her two purebred dogs together to have the "designer dogs'? Those doodles are NOT purebred dogs - she's creating more mutts. And the only reason I see to do this is to sell them for money only - no other reason.

I'm willing to bet that other breeders don't know she's doing this. So it really doesn't matter much that she shows her dogs (the purebreds) and wins 1st/2nd places - only to go behind dedicated breeders and breed designer dogs for money.

How is that responsible? If she wants to improve each breed individually that's totally different - but no ethical breeder that has more then one breed goes and breeds designer dogs.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by blackrose

Ah, there we go. This makes it so much easier to say. lol Since there are no good breeders to buy from, you have to adopt! lol.

If you're referring to doodle breeders, I would agree. My statement was mean't in finding the best purebred breeder. Breeding hybrids or mixes would exclude you from being the best.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

The term hybrid vigor as applied to domestic dogs is just a term used to add some sort of 'scientific' backing for what they are doing. It is being completely misconstrued and twisted to suit their own ends.

Thank you for explaining that. It was very clear in my mind.