[vanbum]

My dogs dont get stuck in a crate all day in the back of some pickup headed to a dog show so that their owners can feel happy that their dog "won" something. If you want to personally attack me then go ahead, but how many of you would go this far to keep the dogs they love? Not many I bet.

I used to work at a stable for show horses, it was rare for me to see an owner of a horse, the owners paid people like me to care for their horses between shows. Im betting that "most" dog shows are the same way - sure theres a handful of caring family dog owners who enter their family pet, but im willing to bet you that MOST of those show dogs are being kept at a kennel somewhere and some rich clown is paying somebody to groom them and feed them etc......

Please tell me im wrong, tell me that all show dogs are owned by a loving family who cares for the dog and not some greedy idiot who just wants to brag about the medals their dog won over "tea time"

I wish.

Anyway. this topic is about pit bulls - if you want to personally attack me- please do so in my topic and I will gladly defend my actions.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by vanbum

My dogs dont get stuck in a crate all day in the back of some pickup headed to a dog show so that their owners can feel happy that their dog "won" something. If you want to personally attack me then go ahead, but how many of you would go this far to keep the dogs they love? Not many I bet.

I used to work at a stable for show horses, it was rare for me to see an owner of a horse, the owners paid people like me to care for their horses between shows. Im betting that "most" dog shows are the same way - sure theres a handful of caring family dog owners who enter their family pet, but im willing to bet you that MOST of those show dogs are being kept at a kennel somewhere and some rich clown is paying somebody to groom them and feed them etc......

Please tell me im wrong, tell me that all show dogs are owned by a loving family who cares for the dog and not some greedy idiot who just wants to brag about the medals their dog won over "tea time"

I wish.

Anyway. this topic is about pit bulls - if you want to personally attack me- please do so in my topic and I will gladly defend my actions.

If you don't KNOW and are only ASSUMING, why would you make the worst possible assumption: that *most* show dogs are not first and formost, pets. We dont' have show dogs but know many, MANY great dog people who do. Their show dogs also compete in lure coursing, agility, obedience,flyball, tracking...you name it. Showing is only one facet of their relationship with that dog.

Last weekend I was standing on a field in the middle of Georgie with tears streaming down my face as my little girl, who failed at the race track, ran the most beautiful course in her entire coursing career...and as the end of it, as I pulled her off "the bunny" (plastic bags), she was wagging her tail and had the happiest expression...pulling on the leash for another chance to run. She KNEW she was having a fantastic day on the field. Yes, I was happy that the judges decided she was the best dog on the field that day...it validates to me that the training and work I'm doing with my dogs is headed in the right direction...but if she hadn't "won," I would have been JUST as happy and JUST as proud. Ribbons and titles are nice....but the time you spend and experiences you have with your "working dog" are priceless.


....and I have NEVER seen a show dog transported to a show in the back of a pick up Travelling with dogs in crates is a safety measure many people use because they LOVE their dogs and want them to be as safe as possible in the event of an accident.

[Laurelin]

Well obviously some dogs that show are owned by people that get all their glory out of their dog winning. There are rotten eggs in ALL sports and competitions.

I know a girl who hasn't seen her dog in a year. She doesn't even know where he is showing half the time. He's top 10 BOB winner at Westminster, but how much of a pet is that? Not much. But many times these dogs end up bonding more with their handlers than their owners.

Certain celebrities own dogs that are winning all over the place that never see their dogs, true.

Even dogs with handlers are not mistreated. The handlers often times really do care about the dogs they are in charge of. They know what they are doing. A unhappy, uhealthy dog does not do well in the ring. It's a business for them. If they want work, they need to win. Sure, it's not all sunshine and roses but a professional handler is just that, professional. Many times they handle dogs for years. Yes, they do get attatched.

You say you are 'betting' that dog shows work the same way. Have you ever been involved in showing? Have you ever been to a dog show? The vast majority of people there really do care about their dogs. Most people at shows at least in my breed are small kennels who either show their own dogs or have handlers on their dogs- and no, just because they have a handler does not mean they don't care about their dogs or that they are rich. There's many many reasons to have someone handle your dog, but I won't go into that. There are actually quite a few owner handlers around too. Many exhibitors regardless of whether they handle their dog or not go to shows to watch their dog show. A lot of 'show people' are retired and have nothing better to do than travel with their dogs and show across country.

I don't know, it seems a bit presumptuous to be commenting on something you've never been around.

Ah yes, the many abuses of dog shows:







And here's my depressed 'show dog':

[vanbum]

Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell.

I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore.

Let me clarify one thing. Im not too concerned with small time dog shows where you take a family pet to a local dog show and have fun and good times. Personaly, I wouldnt do it, unless I just happened to have a dog that looked really good and if all I had to do was walk him around on a leash then sure. But im not gonna yank his leash or force the dog in any way to do something he does not want to do in the name of "training" him, thats where I draw the line.

Its the large national circuit of dog shows that I really cant stand (like the one the Whippet was in) in which they BREED many hundreds of dogs in hopes of getting that ONE show quality dog. What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at?

We didnt know what goes on behind the scenes in the greyhound racing industry until they found the bodies of dogs who were shot in the head and dumped in a field.

The Pro Circuit dog shows do more to harm dogs then it does to help them. Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to.

I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth.

The whippet on the airplane states my case perfectly.

Well... some of you probably believe that Whippet was looking forward to its fun ride home I bet.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by vanbum

Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell.

I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore.

Let me clarify one thing. Im not too concerned with small time dog shows where you take a family pet to a local dog show and have fun and good times. Personaly, I wouldnt do it, unless I just happened to have a dog that looked really good and if all I had to do was walk him around on a leash then sure. But im not gonna yank his leash or force the dog in any way to do something he does not want to do in the name of "training" him, thats where I draw the line.

Its the large national circuit of dog shows that I really cant stand (like the one the Whippet was in) in which they BREED many hundreds of dogs in hopes of getting that ONE show quality dog. What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at?

We didnt know what goes on behind the scenes in the greyhound racing industry until they found the bodies of dogs who were shot in the head and dumped in a field.

The Pro Circuit dog shows do more to harm dogs then it does to help them. Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to.

I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth.

The whippet on the airplane states my case perfectly.

Well... some of you probably believe that Whippet was looking forward to its fun ride home I bet.

Um... your perception of dog shows and people that show dogs is horribly wrong.

I do AKC showing. 'National circuit' or whatever you want to call it. I've worked with several AKC show breeders that you keep insisting you know so much about.

These kennels that breed most of the show dogs have one or two litters a year. The ones that do not make it are sold on spay/neuter contracts and sold to pet homes. I have one of them. He's a show reject. I've had him over 10 years. His breeder still talks to us. Still checks up on how he's doing. She'll still take him back if we were to have to get rid of him. Beau, our 'show dog', and Harry's breeder talks to us at least once or twice a month- more if we're showing. These people care so much about their dogs and I find it ridiculous that you sit here and assume things about them when you've never been around them in your life. They're some of the most responsible, dog savvy people I know. Beau's breeder has 1-2 litters a year at most- that's a grand total of 5 dogs at max a year since I've known her. All the 'rejects' are in homes being loved and she still talks to them. The show prospects she either keeps or sells to show homes. All the ones that show are loved and adored by their owners. Show comes after the quality of home she places them in.

As far as litters, Beau's litter was 2 puppies- both were show quality and finished their championships. Definitely not a hundred dogs bred to produce one show dog.

As far as training goes- I have never abused my dog training him. They use reward systems and positive training to get the dog to do what they want. Like I said, a unhappy, unhealthy dog shows poorly. That's not what you want.

I also find it ludicrous you think the whippet is better off running loose than being home. If the dog was extremely lucky it found a home. Be realistic, the dog is probably dead. It wasn't running from the show- it ran because it's crate came open and ran from the planes/noise. They still showed a segment about her on Westminster with her owners/handlers talking about how worried they were about her.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

[Curbside Prophet]

vanbum, by your logic, you shouldn't own or confine a dog in a van. I expect you to return your dogs to their natural state - free and on their own. Why are you holding them hostage? BTW, I'm not advocating that you do let your dogs free, but you're being hypocritical.

I also believe you don't understand what motivates a dog. I assure you, a dog that's pulling a sled, herding cattle, or standing proud for a judge is quite content, and possibly happier than a dog confined in a van.

[lovemygreys]

Laurelin - reading your post, it's almost identical to several posts I've made regarding greyhound racing and the complete and total misconceptions the misinformed have about the sport.

After reading several of vanbum's replies, trust me when I tell you that future posts will be as effective as banging your head against a wall. A mind that chooses to shut out reason and information, can not be swayed or enlightened.

vanbum - I am curious as to why you choose to keep dogs "enslaved" as your pets (to use a PETA/HSUS term)...you are so concerned about dogs not ever being "forced" to do anything, why not set your own dogs out to the wild to be free to live as they choose? And if you want to trot out isolated expamples of bad apples in dog sports, I can match you case for case...and probably in triplicate...with abuse and neglect cases from regular ol' PET homes.

p.s. The whippet ran away from at the airport b/c the crate came open. Not sure what you mean by "a dog like a whippet" going through that, because I've certainly met dozens and dozens of whippets with wonderfully sound and outgoing temperaments.

[Weebles]

Originally Posted by vanbum

Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell.

I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore.

Let me clarify one thing. Im not too concerned with small time dog shows where you take a family pet to a local dog show and have fun and good times. Personaly, I wouldnt do it, unless I just happened to have a dog that looked really good and if all I had to do was walk him around on a leash then sure. But im not gonna yank his leash or force the dog in any way to do something he does not want to do in the name of "training" him, thats where I draw the line.

Its the large national circuit of dog shows that I really cant stand (like the one the Whippet was in) in which they BREED many hundreds of dogs in hopes of getting that ONE show quality dog. What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at?

We didnt know what goes on behind the scenes in the greyhound racing industry until they found the bodies of dogs who were shot in the head and dumped in a field.

The Pro Circuit dog shows do more to harm dogs then it does to help them. Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to.

I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth.

The whippet on the airplane states my case perfectly.

Well... some of you probably believe that Whippet was looking forward to its fun ride home I bet.

Hmm... either you're joking, or all that living in the van with your dogs has made you lose your grip on reality! I would be willing to bet that Vivi did not plan on running away in order to escape from the show circuit or in anticipation of the plane. She probably ran away because she is a dog, and dogs are curious, plus they like to run. Also, I hate to burst your bubble, but she probably was not rescued by some great family. She is probably (and sadly) not alive right now.

But, say that you are right, and she planned out her escape to leave her horrible life behind. This is one instance. If dogs were THAT unhappy with this life and were able to mastermind their escapes like that, why don't they all run away?

[MagicToller]

What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at?

I think you're doing a little too much bunching here, and overlooking the ethical breeders that do indeed take their time to find pet homes. There are also those in the industry who stray into that path with eyes fixed on a prize that doesn't benefit the general interest of the dog, but that does not mean that every person involved in the sport is tainted. Those who are unethical in their deals don't do any justice to the welfare of the dogs, and you are right in disagreeing with it - but to say that everyone does this indefinately is incorrect.

Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to.

If a dog was negatively forced to do something, they would not radiate a happy expression in the ring, nor win anything for that matter. If it were up to the dog, he'd be running around somewhere licking balls and eating deer poop - but humanity didn't agree with that. It's called domestication, and if that's wrong for you, well so be it. Those dogs are trained through means of positive reinforcement and are taught to like it. I'll say it again, if those dogs were not truelly enjoying themselves, they wouldn't strut around a ring and work for their handlers.

I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth.

The same right that allows you to feel that way, gives us the right to want to exhibit our dogs in their purebred splendor and challenge them mentally and physically in performance events such as obedience and agility. Ring life is not everything.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

Laurelin - reading your post, it's almost identical to several posts I've made regarding greyhound racing and the complete and total misconceptions the misinformed have about the sport.

After reading several of vanbum's replies, trust me when I tell you that future posts will be as effective as banging your head against a wall. A mind that chooses to shut out reason and information, can not be swayed or enlightened.

Yeah, they are, aren't they? I wonder where people get these 'facts'.

I know vanbum will probably never change his opinion or admit the fact he's never been to a show first hand or that he really knows any of what goes on behind the scenes of dog shows- what the dogs or people are like. I'm replying mostly for that person who doesn't know, reads his post then thinks that we all shoot or dump our show rejects and torture our dogs into showing. Though how you beat a dog into standing there and showing happily is beyond me.

Like I said, I know a lot of what happens at dog shows- I know breeders, exhibitors, and professional handlers alike. Most of them are great people. Yes, some people only care about the reputation, but as I've said, that happens in all sports.

[Curbside Prophet]

only begets

[Alpha]

Humans and dogs have been together for tens of thousands of years.

I'm sorry but I can't remember who posted it, I think it was lovemygreys, but teh relationships humans have with their dogs is a give and take. Always has been.

Humans do and take things from dogs, and dogs do the same.

As for now, in this day and age, we probably don't really NEED particular breeds to do the jobs they were once used for, but that doesn't mean that those dogs stop loving that job.

Roxy for instance would shrivel up and die if we didn't work. This dog ALWAYS has to have a job, period. Working in OB, agility or just protecting our home because she quite honestly, despite our best efforts gets bored quite easily.

I haven't attended a CKC or "national" sanctioned show to date and we've been attending school for over a year. Right now we do it for fun, excercise (mental and physical) and so I have polite, well mannered dogs.

Maybe one day we will show, but that's far from what my ultimate goal is.

Besides, some of Roxy's best tricks aren't included in those shows. The tricks that we show off with or often brag about don't include ribbons or places.

It's funny how Laurelin said how the dogs are SOO happy in the ring whether it be confirmation, OB or agillity etc. and I think she's right. The dogs are happy because their either doing something they like period, or just in general doing something with their owner, and everyone's happy.

While I do agree that there are some breeders that take the whole thing a little far, I really honestly, don't think anyone here on DF's is like that.

[Gracie Doodle]

The Human Society where I live immediately puts all pitbulls, that come in as strays or abandoned, to sleep. If you try to bring in a pit bull that you no longer want or no longer can handle they charge you for the shot, $75.00. If you are trying to get rid of dog that you don't want/can't handle are you going to pay $75.00 to do so? Didn't think so, imagine what happens to those dogs after that...I'm sure it's not good, the owner doesn't want them to start with.

[bearlasmom]

sounds like you are from toronto ont gracie. we have a partial ban right now on pit bulls but due to people who stood up to the government and fought for these special dogs, it will be over turned. we have already won round one and they can not longer call just one breed or state that a specific dog is a Pitbull without documentation from a licensed vet who is impartial to the whole issue.

THANK YOU !
i worked and night to get it this far and those that i have been working alongside will not give up until it is completely lifted. Our neighborhood shelter hates the sight of me now because i am in checking their call sheet and kennels and paper work daily to ensure that they are not killing without cause.

if breeders that are bringing them into the world to turn nasty would be all arrested we would no longer have a problem. THE DOGS ARE NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN THE PROBLEM. the owners are the problem and the only way to solve this issue is too hold the owner personallly responsible for the actions of their dogs.

[Alpha]

bearlasmom- Sorry to say, but from the sounds of it, the ban will not be lifted

It has been appealed, but the Supreme Court Judge merely just changed a few minor parts of the law, it's still in effect though.

In ten years there won't be pitbulls in Ontario. They all have to be s/n!

And importing pitbulls is also illegal.

The sad part is, the responsible pit owners as usual, have their animals s/n.

From what I hear there are still a number of APBT pups coming from Toronto, because the poor parents are locked up inside a basement 24 hours a day because they are not s/n and they don't want to risk getting caught with unaltered dogs.

So once again, us respsonsible owners, abide by the laws, (even though the law's aren't trully about OUR dogs) and the bad owners, are continueing to do this breed wrong.

[vanbum]

Sometimes in life we just have to agree to disagree. I have to remind myself that this is not an Animal Rescue Forum - its a dog forum, people dont come here to discuss rescue, they come here to discuss dogs. I'm an animal rescuer and if you dont like my position on dog shows, then you are gonna downright hate my position on breeding in general.

I guess it was the flashing banner ad at the top of this forum that advertises a breeder that made me realize this is not the right place to discuss these issues nor are the people here going to want to hear them.

We agree to disagree.

Now about pit bulls.

Lawmakers need to work with responsible pit owners to create laws which only effect the idiot BYBers and bad pit owners who cause all these problems. Im sure its been tried many times by letter writing campaigns and visists to lawmakers etc.... But lawmakers have to answer to the public, and when the public watches TV and sees pit bull attacks then they demand action. And lawmakers have to worry about getting re-ellected so they generaly take the fastest and easiest course of action to fix the problem and keep the public happy: The Ban.

I hear you cant get homeowners insurance in some places if you own a pit bull too.

[Alpha]

I don't really understand vanbum.

Both of my dogs were what many will call "rescued". I got them both for free from homes that most likely would've ended up drowning them (Roxy) or ending up euthanized (Hades) because of his breed.

So I'm not an animal rescuer because I chose to be more than just a "pet" owner?

Because I chose to work and mentally challenge my dogs?

I don't understand...

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I don't really understand vanbum.

Both of my dogs were what many will call "rescued". I got them both for free from homes that most likely would've ended up drowning them (Roxy) or ending up euthanized (Hades) because of his breed.

So I'm not an animal rescuer because I chose to be more than just a "pet" owner?

Because I chose to work and mentally challenge my dogs?

I don't understand...

Don't worry, you're not the only one.

I've had rescue dogs in the past, I've worked in shelters. Just because the dogs I have now are from a breeder doesn't mean I'm against rescues or that I don't understand the dog overpopulation problem in this country.

Many show people have rescued or work in rescues, especially breed specific rescues. Trey's breeder will pull any sheltie out of the local shelters and foster them and place them in homes. She's saved several older or very shy shelties from shelters where they stood little chance of being adopted. She also shows and breeds responsibly.

And a TON of agility and obedience dogs are rescues.

But of course, we 'worked' some of our rescues as well. Our golden retriever/GSD was quite happy retrieving for my father.

[Snowshoe]

Interesting thread.

I don't really think that vanbum has a clue about what he or she is talking about, and I agree with Ilovemygreys, he does sound like he works for PETA.

However, if he did work for PETA, why does he confine five dogs to a van????

Ah well.

Anyway, I'm involved with showing and I don't think there is too much fact in vanbum's opinion. Any breeder worth their salt doesn't breed enough to have an overflux of dogs.

In fact, most only breed twice a year if that.

Also, the pups that don't meet standards are sold with a spay/neuter contract.

In regards to showing- there's no way that you can tell if a dog meets its standard unless you show it. End of story.

Dogs were bred to help man kind. They love to work and play. It keeps them from being bored.

Usually, dogs that don't work end up having some kind of emotional problems: they get neurotic, aggressive, etc.

And as for dogs in the show ring, just as Lauralin said, if a dog won't show then it won't show. And like Ilovemygreys said, if a dog won't work, then it won't work.

You can't compete with an unhappy dog. If they didn't want to do it, then they wouldn't.

And what's this confusion about rescuing? I think anyone who rescues is just awesome in my book. However, there are two sides to the coin, the rescuers and the responsible breeders and responsible pet/ show dog buyers. If everyone fit into these catagories, there would be no dogs sitting in pounds.

In regards to getting personal: I think that calling show owners cruel is pretty personal. If you're going to be that incredibly insulting, then you have to realize that you're going to get some flak for it.

Personally, as I've said before, I Think that keeping five dogs cooped up in a van all day is unethical, but that's just my opinion.

[LoveMyYuffie]

A dog is only as good or bad as his owner. That includes Pits, Dobies, Rotts, and other breeds tagged as aggressive.