[LeRoymydog]

Owning a "bull breed" or two, I feel I should make a comment.

I have owned an english Bulldog who has past in Feb. He was the BEST family dog I have ever owned. When I was younger, I owned a Black Lab and she was more "viscious" than my bulldog. My EB was very protective over my kids and that was it. if you tried to hurt my kids, he'd try and hurt you. Other than that, if you didn't hurt my kids, he was your best friend- with treats or without.

I own an American Bulldog now. He's a puppy, so he still does the puppy nipping. I have a 2 year old and a 5 year old, and I would trust this dog around my kids even if I wasn't around. (But, of course, I'm always with them when the puppy is around them- only because he's a puppy. I'm the same with my mom's chihuahua puppy).

If you were to say you hate pits because they hurt or sometimes kill people, then it would be like saying I hate men and women because they are known to kill people also. If that's the case, people who feel this way about the different breeds, should not reproduce and have children, because their children might hurt or kill someone else.

Just my 2 cents...

[vanbum]

One of you mentioned a city that was going to ban Pit Bulls as many cities are considering doing.

Perhaps a better idea is to ban breeding of Pit Bulls, make it an automatic one year in jail if you are caught breeding a Pit Bull.

Or maybe every pit owner would need a special licence which requires a 4 hour manditory training course from a pit bull behaviour expert. This would help weed out people who want a pit for the wrong reasons. I personaly wouldnt mind going through that, I might learn something I didnt know and would be happy to do it knowing it might make gangbangers and other idiot people think twice about getting a pit because they are tough and its cool to have one.

Ive met people who purposly treat their pit badly to make the dog meaner. I even met one clown who wouldnt let his pit puppy be touched or petted by anyone, because he said he wanted the dog for protection and didnt want the dog to be a wuss (sigh)

[Alpha]

vanbum- I live in Ontario, Canada, and we HAVE the pitbull ban.

This means all Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pitbull Terriers MUST be muzzled and on leash in public areas and MUST be spayed and neutered.

In May of last year they took it to court and recently it was upheld in the Supreme Court. They did appeal it though. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised to hire the BEST lawyer in Canada, Clayton Ruby.

I agree with Laurelin and CrazyBrit.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. It's not just MY dog.

There are plenty of "pitbulls" (meaning staffs as well) that are just like my little guy.

I hate to bring up the topic of race, but according to your post than, if in a small town a middle eastern man would be ostracized than for robbing a bank, or let's say two middle eastern men.

That would be thier own "personal experience" with that race right?

Of course NORMAL people don't think that way. They know that not ALL people of X race are like that, but it's just unfortunate that it was their only meeting with them.

It's the same with ANY breed of dog especially pitbulls.

Just because you've met a few that aren't in the most responsible household doesn't mean that ALL pitbulls are like that.

I've met a TONNE of annoying, ill mannered Golden Retrievers believe it or not at our training school. Do I hate Golden's because of it?

No.

It just bothers me when people post their opinion, after meeting a few ill mannered pitbulls as if it were FACT about the breed in general. There's no other word for it than plain ignorance IMO.

[vanbum]

Im confused Alpha - your post seems to disagree with my post, but I agree with what you say 100% , Maybe I didnt type what I meant correctly or maybe there was a simple misunderstanding.

Let me put it this way:

There are 2 types of people who own pit bulls. I dont need to explain the difference between the 2, im sure you already know.

The problem is, they outnumber us, probably by 20 to 1. So when they pass laws to try and stop problems caused by those 20 idiots, the one responsible owner has to suffer too, and that sucks.

Im not sure what I posted that rubbed you the wrong way, but I agree with you totally.

I have a pic on my PC, im not gonna post it here cause its too depressing, its a pic of 5 or 6 barrels at the dog pound full of the dogs they had to euth that day. Cats and dogs just piled in barrels, and you can clearly see a pit mix sticking out of one of them. I cried the first time I saw that pic. I cant even go to the dog pound because its like walking past cages of dogs that are on death row, but they didnt commit any crime, their owners did and they will die for their owner's sins. Its just too depressing.

I gave up on watching shows like "animal cops" on the Animal Planet channel. They respond to a call of some idiots involved in a fighting pit bulls and theres a pit covered in blood and the owner could care less.

As his pit is taken away, the owner has a look on his face like "I dont get it, the dog is my property, I can do what I want with it" aagghhhh - it drives me mad. so I cant watch those shows anymore.

They outnumber us.

Those of us who love our dogs, we want to provide them with a good life because thats what they deserve. But to so many, a dog is just something that exists for their entertainment, and they have no compassion for the animal at all.

And they outnumber us greatly.

[yellerlab]

I think that if they are raised right, then they are less likely to be aggressive dogs, but they are bred to mean and fight. It is like trying to get a labrador retriever to stop retrieving. They can't something just tells them that they have to go and get that stick for you and bring it back.

[vanbum]

I dont agree.

I see news reports all the time about a pit killing some baby or chewing up someone's leg or something like that.

lets go back in time, and give me that same pit as a puppy, and no way would he grow up and have the same future.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by yellerlab

I think that if they are raised right, then they are less likely to be aggressive dogs, but they are bred to mean and fight. It is like trying to get a labrador retriever to stop retrieving. They can't something just tells them that they have to go and get that stick for you and bring it back.

I agree with you. It is like trying to get my dog to stop chasing squirrells.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I agree with you. It is like trying to get my dog to stop chasing squirrells.

I think that's a very biased and untrue statement. It's a huge generalization. Obviously some people are breeding pits with crappy temperaments that are human aggressive then training them to attack or not socializing them. Those particular dogs and owners and breeders are a problem- and a big problem at that. It does NOT mean however that ALL pit bulls are like that or that ALL pit bull owners treat their dogs this way.

In my opinion punish the ones who are doing things wrong and support the ones who are doing things right and trying to turn things around for the breed.

[Alpha]

OMG! *dies*

Every lab retrieves?!??! Seriously!?!?

Well, you'll have to tell that to one of the field triallers I go to school with, because she's having a heck of a time with her dogs!

Same with a lady at our school who breeds NSDTR.

Once again, TOTAL and complete utter ignorance.

NOT EVERY dog bred to do a specific job does that job.

It's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

While I agree, when purchasing a breed, you should research them fully because they most likely will have many of the breed specific qualities, it BY NO MEANS guarentees the dog to have those qualities.

I must inform those two breeders that they're wrong, and that ALL of their dogs (labs and NSDTR) retreieve. Period, because that is what they were bred to do.

The lady who breeds the NSDTR also does some e-collar training, and was telling us a few months ago about a woman who came with her lab. She was pretty inexperienced but was ambitious, and wanted to do hunt tests with her lab. The big problem was her lab didn't retrieve! She didnt' understand it, isn't he a Labrador RETRIEVER?!?!? ROFL. After some education she sucombed to the fact that it didn't mean her dog was a programmed robot that would do whatever it was hopefully programmed to do! LOL

End of story is with some positive training methods the dog retreives, but it was only by the skin of his teeth and it took a lot of work.

I guess it could be comparable to beating a pitbull to make him dog aggressive.

vanbum- I wasn't disagreeing with you, just saying that where I live we have the ban is on It was a recent discussion at class on Tuesday, so perhaps I gave TMI! ROFL

ETA- It was brought up something about "trying to stop dogs from chasing squirrels".

I have you know that Hades, being a Terrier, LOVES to chase squirrels. Well, it would appear he loves to, but all the work we do in OB is engrained in him MUCH to strongly for him to risk breaking that "here" command, which means he has to stay within approx. 5 feet away from me.

All it takes is A LOT of time and the right methods for your dogs and you can train them to do anything Whether they like it or not, that's another story LOL

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

I agree with Alpha and vanbum 100%. Just because a dog is bred to do something does in no way mean they will do that without training. For instance, if you go out and buy a herding breed you cannot just let it in with sheep and expect the dog to start herding perfectly.

These breeds are bred with the best characteristics for the job that we have intended them to do...but that does not mean they will automatically do this without training first. How can anyone even say that? PBs are strong dogs...like many others...they are ideal for the sick people who feel the need to sport in dog fighting. They could just as easily be using Rotties, Doberman's or any strong breed to fight with.

And as said before Pitbulls were NOT originally bred as fighting dogs. AND they STILL are not bred as human aggressive dogs! Even the people who breed PBs as dog fighters breed the most DA/human friendly dogs...they don't want the dogs attacking people...although it happens because of the abuse the poor dogs have to suffer. If you have seen the way these poor dogs are abused then you'd want to attack people too. It's disgusting.

There's a lot of people who have retrievers who don't retrieve and herding dogs who couldn't herd if they wanted to. That is utter ignorance IMO.

[Beckie]

I can only say : a Apbt are a very good dog breed. and I own a purebred Apbt boy inself and they are a very friendly,nice,funny and very funny dogs.
my own are a very funny and nice dog and I love him so much
I live in a country there this dogbreeds not are banned.and that are very lucky for all us with apbts,amstaffsand staffs and other bulldogs breeds.
this dogs been
a dog been what we learn them to. if a dog been aggressive so are that not a dogs wrong. thats are a owners wrong.

[vanbum]

Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us?

I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it.

Dogs are not here to provide us with entertainment nor to be our work slave.

A few years ago, there was a story in the paper about a show dog who escaped at the airport, a whippet (remember the Whippet angel in "all dogs go to heaven" ya know, when Charlie goes to heaven in the begining? - my fav cartoon movie " well they didnt catch it for a few weeks and then the story faded, not sure if they ever did.

Part of me was sad that this dog may have to go without food and water and have a warm place to sleep, but part of me was Happy! Go Whippiet, be free! no more being crated from show to show so you can win prizes for humans so they can feel special about themselves.

Im sorry if I may offend some people with this post, and im not sure why i even decided to post it now. I guess its just always bugged me.

When a person decides to train their dog to do agility or be a show dog, are they doing it to benifit the dog, who has no idea what a prize is, or a medal is. Or are they doing it for their own needs?

[Ginny01OT]

Sad thing is the Whippet got free around JFK airport in NY. If anyone is familiar with that area it is not the best place to "run free"--the Belt Parkway alone is a reason not to run free. At the last Westminster Dog show in January they did a whole segment on this Whippet and asked for help in finding him/her so it is really not forgotten.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by vanbum

Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us?

I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it.

Dogs are not here to provide us with entertainment nor to be our work slave.

A few years ago, there was a story in the paper about a show dog who escaped at the airport, a whippet (remember the Whippet angel in "all dogs go to heaven" ya know, when Charlie goes to heaven in the begining? - my fav cartoon movie " well they didnt catch it for a few weeks and then the story faded, not sure if they ever did.

Part of me was sad that this dog may have to go without food and water and have a warm place to sleep, but part of me was Happy! Go Whippiet, be free! no more being crated from show to show so you can win prizes for humans so they can feel special about themselves.

Im sorry if I may offend some people with this post, and im not sure why i even decided to post it now. I guess its just always bugged me.

When a person decides to train their dog to do agility or be a show dog, are they doing it to benifit the dog, who has no idea what a prize is, or a medal is. Or are they doing it for their own needs?

Wow...spoken like a card carrying member of PETA

Do dogs know what ribbons or a trophy are? Of course not...those are for the humans. But that doesn't mean they don't love every second of whatever sport their owner has entered them in.

Personally, I don't "get" dog shows...but I've been to a couple and all the dogs seemed to be quite happy and content. They are spending time with their human, getting out and about to see and do new things...I can see how some dogs would like it. It's my understanding that dogs who *don't* like the show scene are often retired from it, b/c like all other dog sports, you can't really make a dog do it <and do it well>.

Are dogs here to serve humans? Well, I suppose it could be debated that they are. And that the servitude goes both ways The relationship between dogs and humans has always been one of mutual benefit. The dogs provide the humans with something we need and want (companionship, protection, hunting, etc...) and in return, the humans provide the dog with something they need and want (protection, security, companionship...).

Some of our dogs lure course (I wish they all could!)...is it fun and entertaining for the humans...you bet it is!! It's also a LOT of work and $$$. The dogs get to just show up and do what they love to do...chase! Everything from pre-event training/conditioning to the actual field trial, the dogs love spending time with me and my husband. Do they care about the ribbons or the titles? Nah....they could care less. But they still benefit from and enjoy the sport. If they didn't, I wouldn't (and couldn't) make them do it. In fact, we have a greyhound who looooooooooooves to chase, but doesn't enjoy the training aspect (she hates walks and getting her to run w/o a lure is practically impossible)...so she's retired from lure coursing. If she doesn't enjoy every aspect of it, she shouldn't have to do it. We are trying her out in straight racing though, b/c I think she will enjoy that more and it requires less intensive training. I certainly have my handsful with the other dogs and their coursing events, but I know that Harmony wants to do *something* so I'm trying to find something that *will* make her happy and fulfill her that will also be something that I enjoy doing with her...I guess, in your mind, that's a bad thing.

I know the agility trials I've seen are nothing but happy, excited dogs who appear to love every single second of what they are doing! How can you be against that? Handler and hound being happy.

[workingdog]

Originally Posted by vanbum

Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us?

I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it.

Dogs are not here to provide us with entertainment nor to be our work slave.

A few years ago, there was a story in the paper about a show dog who escaped at the airport, a whippet (remember the Whippet angel in "all dogs go to heaven" ya know, when Charlie goes to heaven in the begining? - my fav cartoon movie " well they didnt catch it for a few weeks and then the story faded, not sure if they ever did.

Part of me was sad that this dog may have to go without food and water and have a warm place to sleep, but part of me was Happy! Go Whippiet, be free! no more being crated from show to show so you can win prizes for humans so they can feel special about themselves.

Im sorry if I may offend some people with this post, and im not sure why i even decided to post it now. I guess its just always bugged me.

When a person decides to train their dog to do agility or be a show dog, are they doing it to benifit the dog, who has no idea what a prize is, or a medal is. Or are they doing it for their own needs?

From your post i can see that you know little about dogs. Go to some working events and watch the dogs and you tell me that the dogs do not enjoy what they are doing. What do you think a dog should do? Nothing! that would be sad.

[OC_Spirit]

Oh the abuse I give my dogs...clearly they are hating every moment of this....oh someone call the humane society on me as I am the worst owner in the world for actually getting off my lazy butt and working my dogs!!!! Allowing them to do what they have been bred to do, allowing them to do what they LOVE!!!!!







Trust me, its impossible to get a dog who doesnt want to pull to do it. They will just simply lie down, or run in the perfect spot that they can keep up with the team but not actually be pulling anything. Dogs love it when they have a job. A purpose in life if you will....and no, ""holding down the couch"" doesnt count as a job! If they arent given one they will find one for themselves such as patroling the yard or something.

I dont compete in dogsledding for pretty ribbons or titles. I do it because my dogs love it. Heck, I didnt even make it out to a single race this year!! I know I dont have the fastest team out there but I dont care. When I attend a race my only goal is for all of us to have fun and I aim to beat our personal best time. I''ve come dead last at races before, but you know what? I left the trail smiling as big of a smile as the days we placed because we had beaten our best time by 2 minutes!!! I was so proud of my dogs!

If I dont give my dogs work they go stir crazy. merely walking around town just isnt enough for them. Ronan will literally sit and stare at me, pleading for me to reach for the harnesses if its been too long since our last run. I often joke that if I were to ever hang up the harnesses for good, Ronan would literally kill me in my sleep! LOL

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by OC_Spirit

Oh the abuse I give my dogs...clearly they are hating every moment of this....oh someone call the humane society on me as I am the worst owner in the world for actually getting off my lazy butt and working my dogs!!!! Allowing them to do what they have been bred to do, allowing them to do what they LOVE!!!!!







Trust me, its impossible to get a dog who doesnt want to pull to do it. They will just simply lie down, or run in the perfect spot that they can keep up with the team but not actually be pulling anything. Dogs love it when they have a job. A purpose in life if you will....and no, ""holding down the couch"" doesnt count as a job! If they arent given one they will find one for themselves such as patroling the yard or something.

I dont compete in dogsledding for pretty ribbons or titles. I do it because my dogs love it. Heck, I didnt even make it out to a single race this year!! I know I dont have the fastest team out there but I dont care. When I attend a race my only goal is for all of us to have fun and I aim to beat our personal best time. I''ve come dead last at races before, but you know what? I left the trail smiling as big of a smile as the days we placed because we had beaten our best time by 2 minutes!!! I was so proud of my dogs!

If I dont give my dogs work they go stir crazy. merely walking around town just isnt enough for them. Ronan will literally sit and stare at me, pleading for me to reach for the harnesses if its been too long since our last run. I often joke that if I were to ever hang up the harnesses for good, Ronan would literally kill me in my sleep! LOL

I think dog sledding is fascinating. The scenes in the movie 8 Below, were awe inspiring. Must be fun.......

[Laurelin]

I can speak from the conformation end of things. Most dogs you see showing absolutely love it. They seem to feed off of handlers excitement. It always amazes me how the dog that wins is always jumping up and down. I think it's because they can tell the handler is pleased. Anyways...

Dogs that do not enjoy showing do not show well. They often times sulk around the ring, refuse to hold their tail up, etc. I can assure you a dog that doesn't show well won't be shown for long as long as the owners/handlers have any common sense. The handlers I've been around will not handle a dog that does not enjoy it. Sometimes they try to socialize the dog more, many times the dog is never shown again. My dog's half sister absolutely hated being shown. So she's not showing any more. My dog, however, loved it. He really enjoys pleasing humans, so he'd act so perfect in the ring. He's very outgoing and animated. He just did very well and if you ask me he seemed to enjoy it. Same with obedience.

Shows are somtehing I'm going to be involved in as long as I'm in dogs and especially if I ever get into the breeding aspect of dogs and especially toy breeds. There's not any 'work' a toy breed is bred for that I can test my dogs with. Sure agility and obedience are fun but they really say little about how the dog compares to others of the breed. I can see herders and other working breeds putting traits like herding first. Those are instinctual and not something any dog (basically) can do with training. Yes, the ribbons are for me (though I have seen dogs carrying their own ribbons around the show in their mouths). But I like to know how close my dog is to standard and to compare him to other potential breeding stock. He enjoyed getting out on the weekends and going new places, meeting new people, and new dogs.

I fail to see how that is abusive in any way.

[Chloef_2799]

Wow vanbum, you have a whole lots of guts calling me selfish. Saying everyone who shows or competes their dogs is selfish and only into their dogs for the prizes and the money that they get?
Do you think you are so much better? Are you not the person who is driving around the country in your van with 5 dogs? IMO I feel bad for your dogs and I could call you selfish and a bad dog owner just as easily. Do your dogs have 24 hour access to a safe, enclosed yard that they can run around in? Do they get to go for walks every day? Do they have access to water and food whenever they want it every day? Do they have regualar vetrinary access? Leaving dogs inside a car is dangerous especially in warm or cold weather. They tend to die. I think that your life style is not suited for a dog personally but you don't hear me walking around saying your a bad person. You love your dogs and truly believe that what you are doing is right for them. That is debatable IMO.
My dogs have 24 hour access to a very large enclose safe yard. They go for two sometimes three walks a day. Have access to water and food whenever they want it and they have a vetrinarian. And by the way they happen to love agility trials. I know they do because when theys see their harnesses they go berserk and start running around the house and barking and jumping up and the door and myself. They run straight for the car and when they get out I don't even have to ask them anymore they go over the jumps and frames and through the poles and tubes, they do it for fun not food or because I make them, because they enjoy it. I would never force my dogs to do something they don't want to do EVER!
I agree with lovemygreys. You sound like a member of PETA or worse ALF.

[Laurelin]

Wow, I didn't know there were this many ways to abuse your dogs. We must be creative- agility, obedience, conformation, weight pulling, sledding, lure coursing, herding, hunting... So uh... what CAN we do with our dogs?

I can assure you that my little 'show dog'- who is obviously only there to boost my ego and make me feel special by winning ribbon after ribbon- is first and foremost my companion. Yes, I am happy when he wins, but I'm also happy when he just does his best. He's my buddy and he's perfectly content.

I guess I'm doing better as he's not showing right now, but we are doing obedience, which is also obviously only for my benefit to make him 'work'. nevermind the fact he enjoys going and seeing his sister and that he likes to work with his people. That and it makes him a much better ambassador for small dogs in the fact that he's actually trained...