[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by sillylilykitty

Health testing is important because even if it doesnt prevent an animal from getting a problem it definatly makes it less likely, because the problem dogs are not bred!

Bingo. There's no guarantees but a breeder should do as much as humanly possible to prevent a pup from having a genetic disease. Sure, you can't catch them all, but why not try?

The more you know a line, the more you test a line, the less likely you are to have these types of diseases.

[the-tenth]

Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.

[Lorina]

If he's breeding to establish a breed of St. Danes or Great Bernards (but hopefully with a better name than either ), I have no problem with that.

I just have a problem with people making up cutsie names for mixes and selling them for more than a quality purebred of either breed would cost, and making them out to be some kind of wonderdog with no health or behavioral problems. Like the hype on the puggle -- "breed" descriptions make them out to be the perfect dog, wonderful dispositions without the breathing issues of the pug and without the noisiness of the beagle. I can think of three puggles I know. One is a very nasty little mo-fo who needs to be muzzled for just a vet exam. One had to have surgery because her nasal passages were too small. And one lives a few blocks from me and never, ever, ever stops barking.

[Dakota Spirit]

tenth - if the guy you mentioned is truly breeding a long those lines that I wouldn't necessarily jump in with a claim of 'bad breeder'. I would ask however, what his goals were. Is he trying to develop a new breed? Does he have a specific look in mind that he striving for? That sort of thing. Its not that I believe every dog in the world need to be out there doing a job, but I am of the mind that every breeding program needs to have some sort of goal in mind.

And I agree on the intelligent discussions

ETA: Lorina beat me too it

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by the-tenth

Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.

I guess I'd have to know why he is breeding this way instead of just breeding purebreds, where he got his stock (I can't imagine any show breeder letting their stock go to be creating mixed breeds).

There are some breeders breeding new breeds that are doing okay. Like Silken Windhounds and even a select few cockapoo breeders. They health test and everything with their dogs. I think cockapoos are on their third generation within their registry. The problem they face is being a major fad right now the majority aren't remotely reputable breeders. I think the serious breeders who are striving for AKC accpetance really need to start calling their dogs something else instead of 'cockapoo' since names like that tend to denote designer dogs.

I defnitely agree that every breeding program needs to have a goal. You have to have deciding factors to limit the breeding program.

[sillylilykitty]

Originally Posted by the-tenth

Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.

Now that would be the only responsible breeder of mixes I have heard of (IMO). Sounds like something I would be interested in researching (since it involves Danes and sounds responsible). I would like to know his goals in his breeding program.

Where did you hear of this? Does he have a website??

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I think the serious breeders who are striving for AKC accpetance really need to start calling their dogs something else instead of 'cockapoo' since names like that tend to denote designer dogs.

Thats another thing I really dont like. They need to choose a better name then a Cockapoo, Yorkipoo, or Puggle. If they are striving to produce a new breed, call it a new name instead of combining the 2 breeds names.

[the-tenth]

Originally Posted by sillylilykitty

Where did you hear of this? Does he have a website??

Eh. Not a website but a blog. And I kinda stumbled on it accidently. It was in one of my many many many searches for great dane saint bernard mixes (still trying to figure out what Sandy is) to see what some looked like. IIRC he did talk about the look he was trying to get, but I can't remember much more than that. I was really just looking for pictures, and took a break to read his blog. I think he actually showed the danes. I also think I remember him saying he's going with 3\4 dane 1\4 saint (which I guess means he's breeding the offspring with danes?). Not sure though. I wish I would have bookmarked it. Wasn't what I was looking for at the time, but I read it because it was intersting.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

There are some breeders breeding new breeds that are doing okay. Like Silken Windhounds and even a select few cockapoo breeders. .

What about the American Mastiffs?

[Laurelin]

I honestly don't know a thing about American mastiffs, so I'd have to research that one.

[DobManiac]

[quote]

Originally Posted by the-tenth

Eh. Not a website but a blog. And I kinda stumbled on it accidently. It was in one of my many many many searches for great dane saint bernard mixes (still trying to figure out what Sandy is) to see what some looked like. IIRC he did talk about the look he was trying to get, but I can't remember much more than that. I was really just looking for pictures, and took a break to read his blog. I think he actually showed the danes. I also think I remember him saying he's going with 3\4 dane 1\4 saint (which I guess means he's breeding the offspring with danes?).QUOTE]

Many breeds started out this way. They were breed by one person or group by combining many different breeds. One example that comes to mind would be the doberman. However, for this man to really be reputable, I think his goals would have to include more that just a look. Is he trying to reduce a certain health risk in Danes or St. Bernards? Or maybe he is looking for a certain kind of tempermant.

For it to truely be a breed, I think he needs to be looking at the big picture. I hope he has researched all dogs extensively and studied genetics in detail. In order to build a new breed, one needs to treat it has a science.

[sillylilykitty]

[quote=DobManiac;126875]

Many breeds started out this way. They were breed by one person or group by combining many different breeds. One example that comes to mind would be the doberman.

Like Plott Hounds too!

[the-tenth]

There's 2 lines trying to get AKC accredited. One if Flying W, and the other is Ponja or somethin like that. I've read a bit on the Flying W lines. t's identical in appearance to the English, but dry mouthed. They were also trying to cut way back on the joint problems and dysplacia. I think they were originally 7\8 English mastiffs and 1\8 some type of Shepherd. Anyhoo. Ok. Well looks like the Panja line is little more than some crackheads breeding pits, rotties, and mastiffs together to guard their stashes. Now they wanna be "recognized".

[husky87]

Sorry to drag up an older thread guys, but I didn't see this article posted anywhere in here and thought it might be an interesting read for some of you.

Originally Posted by hybridowner

I just read about the reason for the first labradoddle. Here is the piece copied and pasted from the web site:

The first Labradoodle was bred by the Australian Guide Dog Association in 1989. The following is an article by the AGDA -
...

So you can see there was a reason for some of the designer dogs. IT might have gotten out fo control, but at least this one does make sense

The creater of the "labradoodle" is a man named Wally Conron. He recently wrote an article for Readers Digest where he says:

"....While all this was happening, I continued training Sultan, the original non-allergenic pup. He eventually went to Hawaii, amid intense media coverage, where as the world’s first labradoodle he bonded beautifully with his new owner and her allergic husband.

Interest in the labradoodle continued to escalate and inquiries poured in from all over the world from people wishing to either purchase or breed the dogs. But I quickly realised that I’d opened a Pandora’s box when our next litter of ten labradoodles produced only three allergy-free pups.

I began to worry, too, about backyard breeders producing supposedly “allergy-free” dogs for profit. Already, one man claimed to be the first to breed a poodle- Rottweiler cross!

Nothing, however, could stop the mania that followed. New breeds began to flood the market: groodles, spoodles, caboodles and snoodles. Were breeders bothering to check their sires and bitches for heredity faults, or were they simply caught up in delivering to hungry customers the next status symbol? We’ll never know for sure.

Today I am internationally credited as the first person to breed the labradoodle but I wonder, in my retirement, whether we bred a designer dog – or a disaster!"

Many people don't realise that the Guide dog's association's program for breeding labradoodles was abandoned because it produced unreliable results. No labradoodle would breed true and no puppy could be guarenteed to be hypo allergenic - as Conran states in the above excert, only three out ten puppies would result in a hypo allergenic dog. Even then, the dogs coat can change up until twelve months of age so a puppy that is initially hypo allergenic can change with maturity.

The whole article:
http://www.readersdigest.com.au/cont...erCommentsBy=0

No cross breed or "hybrid" dog can breed true. The Australian Labradoodle is not a breed, and their "breed standard" is a joke that gives room for any size, type or shape of dog - you can get a dog that is any where between 7kg to 30 kg. There are two different coat types and 10 different colours that can come in any combination.

And this is ONLY if you buy from a breeder who is part of the Australian Labradoodle Association, majority of doodle breeders are not part of this organisation and majority are not breeding to any standard no matter how ridiculous it actually is. Most are still breeding first crosses and there is nothing regulating the breeding of these dogs.

Originally Posted by hybridowner

True, but it took a creative person to find a way to help blind people with allergies. So at least now we have an example of a hybrid with a role or job, a job that a pure breed cannot do

Majority of guide dogs are still purebred dogs. There is nothing a hybrid dog can do that a purebred dog can't - there ARE poodles that are guide dogs. Hybrid dogs bring nothing new to the dog world that we don't already have in our 200+ recognised purebred dogs.

Wally Conron was not a creative person. He has said in numerous interviews that he regrets breeding labradoodles and wishes that he never had because it has opened a can of worms.

[TFTpwnsYou]

I didn't read through the whole thread, but these "designer dogs" make me crazy. I got curious and looked on some site one day, and I think they have more silly named mixes than there are actual pure breds. It shocked the crap out of me. Although a lot of them aren't popular like the "Puggle", "Poos", and Oodles". But the OP made a good thread start.

[NorthernLights]

Oh no!!!! This thread needs to be a buried bone!

**sigh**

I don't even think that British Bandit is on here, anymore...

Just my two cents!