[kelliope]

My little dog is very nervous around strange dogs. He isn't aggressive per se, but if a dog invades his space he will kind of do a bark/lunge. It doesn't go on and on or anything - it's more like one bark with a lunge. He has never bitten or attempted to bite anyone (dog or human).

Because he is a bit nervous he tends to attract a lot of attention from other dogs. I have seen my mom's dogs (who are not nervous) when a new dog comes on the property. They just kind of ignore the new dog and the new dog will tend to ignore them. Next thing they are all running around together instant friends.

My dog is socialized with my mom's 7 dogs. And I do understand that not all dogs are "dog park dogs". But we are at a point where I feel it may be important to my dog's well-being to learn a bit more about meeting new dogs. He passes them on leash quite well. But we encounter so many loose dogs that I feel it may be in my dog's best interest to learn how to relax around other, strange, loose dogs so that he doesn't attract aggressive behavior. Some of these loose dogs seem friendly at first, but seem to get more aggressive once they realize my dog's fear.

I have a Chi meetup group that meets at the small dog park. I have brought my dog before but stopped going because I was nervous the other owners would get mad at his behavior. I don't want to be THAT person at the DP that everyone hates.

So, my question is, is his behavior so bad/rude as to warrant us not going to the park?

I should add, that I call him immediately to another area if he does this.

[Filnyyena]

No, it is bad dog park etiquette if you were to allow your dog to cause problems without informing others and without you there to stop any potential problems.

I think it is a good idea you are getting your chis socialized in this way; for yourself and your dog.

Just talk it over with the others, keep them informed, and keep an eye on your dog. Maybe bring treats to give to your dog (and others if it is alright with them) so they know that other dogs in their space = good things happening to them, not bad..

Edit: Also, engage in conversation with them....most of the "bad feelings" towards other owners is their stand-offishness and worry-wort-edness concerning their dog being upset at every little thing. If you start to talk to others (even if it is just about your dog or your dog's problems), then chances are they will not get upset with you.

[kelliope]

Thanks for the response!

Ok, so if I'm understanding, it might be OK to continue to bring my dog as long as I make sure he isn't hurting anyone else's dog and make sure I talk with the other owners about him and ensure everyone is OK with it. Is that correct?

I want to socialize him more, but I also am extremely conscientious about other's feelings and the well-being of other dogs. Some of them may be fearful too and I don't want my dog to be the cause of someone else's dog's bad experience.

[Curbside Prophet]

You're a peeker. Pia Silvani makes a good analogy between a boiling pot of water and what an owner's job is in caring for their nervous dog. Your job is to keep the lid on the boiling pot of water. The water represents your dog's emotional state. What happens if you peek at the boiling water too often?...you're likely to get scalded. So, I would cease taking your dog to the dog park and maintain control over your dog's emotional lid. You can still socialize your dog with others, but you need to do so in a way that doesn't overwhelm him. Find a friend from the meet-up group who's willing to do one on ones, and add others to your group slowly, over a long period of time.

[sterkrazzy]

I agree with curbside.

We had a chihuahua in the house for 7 years, the family pet, and ever since we got him he was never good with other dogs.

Earlier this year I went and got a mutt puppy, and after 6 months the chi still has a little bit of a problem with the younger, bigger, dog.

I would never take him to a dog park. Not only because he'd be doing exactly what your chi does, but he wouldn't know how to play with other dogs. This is a dog that was never socialized with other dogs though.

[Pepper]

I agree with Curbside, my dog does the same thing as yours, she's a mini schnauzer.

It is our job as the dogs leader to show them what they are supposed to do, and protect them from the things they are afraid of, and slowly help them get over them, bringing them to the dog park is not showing them guidance, then the dog learns to immediately react to the fear, rather than looking to you for "advice" and guidance.

Pepper is afraid of dogs, even on a walk she would lunge and squeal and bark at other dogs. At the dog park she was the same thing, a little less bad behavior but if a dog got too close she would start screaming.

I figured out, it's like, throwing your child into a dog park, knowing they are afraid of dogs...it may not make the problem worse(although it can), but it is definitely not helping the problem, it's only showing the dog my leader is not helping these big scary things stay out of my "security bubble" and I need to act big and scary to make them go away.

I have only worked on Pepper for about a week..what we would do is go to the dog park, start about 50 ft away from the dogs(outside of the fence) and I would treat her for calm behavior, and we would gradually move up until she can approach the fence and dogs without acting fearfully, the second she started acting to anxious or growling, we would turn around walk a few steps and turn back around.

And now, we went to Petco a few days ago, and she behaved almost perfectly, only one squeal when a dog got to close when I wasn't paying enough attention, but other than that, she was just curious.

Sometimes it can take a long time to help a dog get over their fears, and in some cases it can be resolved quite quickly.
The main thing is if flooding isn't helping(just bringing into dog park) then you must work slowly through the problem to achieve the results you want.

[kelliope]

Sorry curbside, but I didn't really get that analogy.

But the thing is - he IS used to dogs. 7 dogs ranging from a Rottie to a Doxie mix. It's just new dogs trying to meet him he has issue with. So he will walk fine on a leash by other dogs, even if that dog is lunging at him as long as he has room to get by without getting touched by the other dog. He is socialized and is great with my mom's 7 dogs.

Yet when we are out on walks and loose dogs are out, it is very scary. Dogs will race up to us and he acts scared, then the dogs start to act aggressive. I'd really like to get him used to loose dogs because I think his very life could depend on it.

Right now, when I encounter loose dogs I pick him up and leave.

I've not had any luck in finding anyone else with calm dogs. The only people I know have very wild, out of control dogs.

So far I've done what Pepper said she was planning to do, which is take him to the parks and be around other dogs, but not take him inside the park. We stay leashed and walk around the park. I also found a girl at the park recently who would take her min pin out on leash for a walk. My dog does fine with that. But the min pin is aggressive so that makes actual meeting impossible.

Most people with the calm dogs like going to the park and just don't have time in their schedule to do extra "play dates", or I've found that those willing to do so are the ones with aggressive or out of control dogs. And doing a play date with a dog like that wouldn't be beneficial to making it fun for my dog to meet other dogs.

I mean, let's face it - a person with a calm outgoing dog isn't really going to want to make time for a play date for a more ill-behaved dog.

So, curbside, are you saying that the bark with a lunge is not appropriate for the Chi meetup?

I have explained to the people there that he wasn't socialized previously and that he's nervous around new dogs. Most there don't act concerned about his behavior, but they also tell me to just not worry about it when he does it. I don't feel like I should just let him bark or lunge at another dog.

Also, what do you do if you have a dog that refuses to let other dogs sniff it? My dog does NOT like to be sniffed. That is what sends him running and acting scared. It's like his space was invaded.

Here he is out for a "field" walk with his existing friends:





Edited to add: Curbside, I re-read your post and I think what you are saying is that your feeling is he is overwhelmed at the dog park and therefore over reacting. I need to continue to increase his socialization but not to the point he feels he needs to bark/lunge.

Do you have any ideas about the sniffing thing??? He doesn't even really let my mom's dogs sniff his butt (he keeps just out of reach) but her dogs don't insist on it the way most dogs do.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by kelliope

So, curbside, are you saying that the bark with a lunge is not appropriate for the Chi meetup?

IMO, no, it is not appropriate. It sounds as though your dog has proximity issues, more than just an intolerance of rude dogs. A dog that barks and lunges around unknown dogs (unknown = you don't live with them) *is* likely to incite or sensitize the other dogs, and this *is* problematic. Now take that to another level where dogs are not segregated by size, and a sensitized dog goes into predatory drift. Not pretty.

I have explained to the people there that he wasn't socialized previously and that he's nervous around new dogs. Most there don't act concerned about his behavior, but they also tell me to just not worry about it when he does it. I don't feel like I should just let him bark or lunge at another dog.

There are two schools of thought...1) let dogs resolve their own issues, and 2) protect your dog from experiencing these situations. If I know the dogs, meaning I know their bite inhibition and history, I'm likely to agree with school 1. If I know nothing about the dogs involved I employ the logic of school 2. Unless this meet-up group is run by a certified trainer/behaviorist employ the logic of school 2, regardless of what the resident dog park expert may say. So you're right, you shouldn't allow your dog to practice these behaviors, and the best way to do that is to be in control of the who's involved, location, and who can come and go. None of these things are in your control at the dog park.

Also, what do you do if you have a dog that refuses to let other dogs sniff it? My dog does NOT like to be sniffed. That is what sends him running and acting scared. It's like his space was invaded.

Lots of classical conditioning. Pairing proximity to other dogs with something special, likely a high value food reward, and jackpots at allowing butt sniffs. It works well if you have a pool of dogs that are masters at dealing with your dog's personality type. You won't find those at a dog park, but a certified trainer may employ such dogs or have access to some. This route would be favored over doing it yourself.

Do you have any ideas about the sniffing thing??? He doesn't even really let my mom's dogs sniff his butt (he keeps just out of reach) but her dogs don't insist on it the way most dogs do.

No clue, but if I had to venture a guess, it probably gives him the willies.

[kelliope]

Thank you Curbside! I really trust your judgement and your line of thinking was what my gut was telling me, but I didn't want to miss out on socializing if his behavior wasn't too big an issue. I can see now that I was right in removing him from the group.

I will take your advice and work with a great behavoirist I found at our local SPCA. I have taken her group classes and she is simply fantastic. It will be pricey to work with her one on one, but I also feel it will be worth it in the long run.

Thanks again for your post - your last comment cracked me up!

[Filnyyena]

Originally Posted by kelliope

Also, what do you do if you have a dog that refuses to let other dogs sniff it? My dog does NOT like to be sniffed. That is what sends him running and acting scared. It's like his space was invaded.

...

Do you have any ideas about the sniffing thing??? He doesn't even really let my mom's dogs sniff his butt (he keeps just out of reach) but her dogs don't insist on it the way most dogs do.

Trek is sort of like this. Off leash, he is a carebear. ON leash..if another dog impedes on his territory longer than makes him comfortable, he gets aggressive (never bit another dog though, just snarls and pho-bites)..

You can't help poor doggy-etiquette, but you can start at home with positive association like Curb said..when a dog comes into her space, reward..work up slowly, make sure she is comfortable before moving the dog closer.

[4dogs3cats]

IMO it depends on how severe it is. Bailey is sort of like that. She will occasionally put her backhair up if another dog gets too close, and "yell" at them. But thats her way of telling the other dog she is uncomfortable. It helps if there is a big dog thats making her scared if I get down with her and pet the dog and reassure her. Then she doesnt do it. But whenever she does it the very first time, the dog will go away, or if it doesnt have manners, she will come to me.

I am 100% confidant that she will never bite anyone. I know she is just doing it as a warning. I think there is a big difference between a warning "yip" and a lunge

[WhySoSerious?]

I didn't mind timid dogs when I used to go to the DP. I made my husky (at the time) respect these issues even though he always was great with other dogs. It was the people with aggressive dogs they couldn't control that bothered me.

The last time I went (a long time ago) a lady pulled up in a truck with some kind of mixed dalmatian breed that you could tell was extremely timid and scared. She told everyone there long before she got to the gate that her dog hasn't really been around other dogs and needed a little space until he greeted everyone. There was about 7 people and dogs in there at the time and only two of us called our dogs back and made them sit tight while she tried to get in. The other dogs were all over the gate opening barking, growling and she couldn't even get the door open. Her dog was pulling back and shaking like crazy. She said "this isn't going to work" and had to leave.

Those same people were always so quick to criticize other people for how they raise their dogs and train them but after I realized none of them had much control over their own dogs I stopped going back.

[Filnyyena]

Originally Posted by WhySoSerious?

Those same people were always so quick to criticize other people for how they raise their dogs and train them but after I realized none of them had much control over their own dogs I stopped going back.

Well, what is that saying? Easy to say, harder to do?

People love to comment on others..but who actually follows their own advice?

[WhySoSerious?]

Originally Posted by Filnyyena

Well, what is that saying? Easy to say, harder to do?

People love to comment on others..but who actually follows their own advice?

LOL agreed. If I remember right they were actually mad the lady needed space for her dog saying they shouldn't have to hold down their dogs just because another person had a dog with "issues." That may be true but I just thought it would be common respect.

[kelliope]

Geez, that's pretty sad. You'd think dog owners would be more understanding. I mean we all want everyone to socialize their dogs, yet these people wouldn't even help that poor woman feel welcome or try to be helpful.

People just never cease to amaze me at their insensitivity.

Anyway, that was very kind of you to be so considerate and take your dog from the gate area. We need more dog people like you! Too bad the others didn't follow your lead.

[WhySoSerious?]

Geez, that's pretty sad. You'd think dog owners would be more understanding.

I was afraid all dog parks were going to be like that, pretty much why I stopped going.

I might give it another shot when spring roles around. It wouldn't hurt me to get some sun cuz I'm getting pretty pale without a dog to walk outside everyday lol.

Anyway, that was very kind of you to be so considerate and take your dog from the gate area. We need more dog people like you!

Thanks, if everyone at the dog parks were more like most of the people in this dog forum it would be a much more enjoyable experiance IMO.