[AirForceAngel]

Originally Posted by GreatDaneMom

how is that uncalled for?

you dont walk into a lab and tell them that they are running a certain test wrong, when you obviously dont know what youre talking about. same as you dont walk into a group of people who love dogs and a lot of them show and breed their dogs and tell them, "well they should be spayed/neutered because i think so" without any REAL REASON. nothing the poster said was correct, and instead of just deciding "well i dont like them because they arent spayed/neutered" (thats just silly) try educating yourself and understand WHY they show and WHY they are not "fixed". ignorance is bliss i guess though....

She didn't come here because she knows everything. She is as much entitled to her opinion as anyone else and if you've only ever heard one side of a story then you need to find the other side.

Why do you need to be so condescending about it? That would be like you having an opinion on vegans and me telling you that you're an idiot.

It doesn't make any sense.

[GreatDaneMom]

Originally Posted by AirForceAngel

She didn't come here because she knows everything. She is as much entitled to her opinion as anyone else and if you've only ever heard one side of a story then you need to find the other side.

Why do you need to be so condescending about it? That would be like you having an opinion on vegans and me telling you that you're an idiot.

It doesn't make any sense.

that is why its SMART to have educated yourself on a subject BEFORE you come up with some rediculous opinion. i didnt say she could have an opinion, but you need to understand how dumb it makes you sound when you dont have any knowledge about something and have negative opinions based on absolutely nothing

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by GreatDaneMom

that is why its SMART to have educated yourself on a subject BEFORE you come up with some rediculous opinion. i didnt say she could have an opinion, but you need to understand how dumb it makes you sound when you dont have any knowledge about something and have negative opinions based on absolutely nothing

sounds like the crap i deal with in my line of work.


You are right. You did come across as harsh tho. BUT if you hadn't, im sure som'one else would have.

[Mac'N'Roe]

good grief...

what happened to the adult conversation?

If I may express my humble opinion (hopefully without being called snotty or whatever the case may be) I agree with Shalva that the dog should have been in the hands of the owner when the dog is in heat. Too many things, mainly an accidental litter, are possible. And, if the owner didn't KNOW the dog was going into heat (which i would think he/she would)...the handler AND owner should have insisted that the dog be retrieved immediately from the situation. Especially if the handler didn't have the means to keep the bitch in heat separate from the other dogs.

just my opinion...but i don't know anything about show dogs...

just a little bit of common sense.

[Xeph]

I will honestly say that I know of NO handler that would call an owner and say "Come get/I am sending home your bitch because she's in season."

[Shalva]

I simply disagree with your stand that the owner shared none of the blame.

I have had intact bitches here for a looonnnggg time and I can tell you that I totally know when these girls are going to come into season. I may be off a couple weeks here and there but I know when.....

I don't know of a handler who would have sent them home that is true BUT when you have an intact dog it is NOBODIES responsibility but your own to prevent accidental litters.

Now call me paranoid.... and maybe I am too paranoid about my girls but to go and say that you left your dog with a handler and they ended up pregnant and its not your fault is ridiculous

you can only enter shows a couple weeks in advance at most your "friend" would have lost about 200 bucks.... at the most.... and in the very expensive world of dog showing 200 bucks ain't nothin..... showing a dog is not a cheap hobby and like I said previously handler fees, travel, mileage and all the kennel fees are very expensive .... 200 bucks is a drop in the bucket compared to those or the cost of an accidental litter.... and the selling of the mixed breed pups.... well I won't even go there.....

second nobody said she had to pull or not show the dog but rather to get the girl into HER CARE doesn't have to be the handlers care get the girl into her care. In other words find a hotel pick up your dog and show if you want but the dog should be in her care.....

I would never trust a busy handler, with multiple dogs and an intact in season bitch.... I have been around to many handlers and know that they have young kids assisting.... they are running from ring to ring.... they put dogs in ex pens all together .....

When a girl comes into season they bleed for 7-10 days (roughly) before being fertile, that is plenty of time for someone to go and get their dog.

To me with seven dogs of two breeds preventing unwanted ACCIDENTAL litters is the top of my list of priorities..... it comes over showing, and performance and everything else...

Your thread stated it was not her fault..... I disagree in that I believe that she shares responsibility in that she had her intact in season bitch with an obviously untrustworthy handler.... and she was not in full control of her bitch when she was in season.


s

Insults and name calling edited CS

[tirluc]

i will have to agree w/ Shalva on the fact that, if i were in the same situation, i would have either gone and stayed w/ the dog myself or (that not always being the easiest thing to do) had the dog brought home (by me) and pulled from the shows....i don't even allow my family to be in charge for a min w/ my in-season females, i trust no one w/ them.....and this i learned the hard way when i went into the hospital on an emergency while my Husky was in season and, even tho left in excellent hands, still got pregnant (by a Springer, no less)....and, as Shalva said, if she came in season while at the show(s) then there was that "window" b/4 the fertile stage of heat that everything could have been taken care of (brought home or whatever)

the handler should have, at the very least, called the owner and said the dog was in season, what do we do....that would have taken all blame off the handler, IMO

[Lorina]

I think what can be learned from this is that Springers are horndogs.

I don't show, dont' fully understand showing, and have no interest in it beyond watching it on animal planet on a lazy weekend morning. But I think in the owners' shoes, I'd have to weigh the monetary loss of pulling my bitch vs the risk of pregnancy. I imagine whelping pups and having her out of commission while she's preggers and raising the pups, would be a much larger financial loss.

But I can also understand trusting your handler. No one would choose a handler if they didn't trust him/her.

[tirluc]

hey, Lorina, i just noticed....you have Gypsy's name spelt wrong (unless it's supposed to be Gyspy)

[Lorina]

D'oh! Stupid dyslexia!

Oh, well. It's gonna be time for a new one soon anyway. The kittens don't look anything like that anymore. They're enormous!

[txcollies]

While yes, the handler should have been more careful. Dogs are dogs and studs will go to seemingly IMPOSSIBLE means to get to a bitch in season. It could have been a total accident. None of us were there.. idk maybe the bitch owner knows the real story.

No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.

If had a bitch out with a handler and she did come into season. I wouldn't pull her and take her back. Handlers should be trusted, that's why I'm paying them.

I wouldn't have a few of my dogs if it hadn't been for an accidental breeding years ago that produced the stud that has produced my top dogs. (in fact, the accidental breeding worked so well that it was repeated twice! It produced specialty and all breed winners and some of the nicest dogs I've seen in a while)

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by txcollies

While yes, the handler should have been more careful. Dogs are dogs and studs will go to seemingly IMPOSSIBLE means to get to a bitch in season. It could have been a total accident. None of us were there.. idk maybe the bitch owner knows the real story.

No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.

If had a bitch out with a handler and she did come into season. I wouldn't pull her and take her back. Handlers should be trusted, that's why I'm paying them.

I wouldn't have a few of my dogs if it hadn't been for an accidental breeding years ago that produced the stud that has produced my top dogs. (in fact, the accidental breeding worked so well that it was repeated twice! It produced specialty and all breed winners and some of the nicest dogs I've seen in a while)

and what exactly does repeating a breeding (accidental or not) three times do to help the breed..... ???? other than produce specialty and all breed winners which doesn't matter to the gene pool at all..... or really to the breed...

sorry am not a fan of repeat breedings other than in a rare circumstance...

it does nothing to help genetic diversity and help the breed.....

you end up with 20-30 puppies that are genetically the same....

so many breeds health problem are related to a lack of genetic diversity that repeat breedings don't seem to make much sense....

if all you care about is winning then sure thats great
but if you are really trying to better your breed then doing a repeat breeding says that you got the best that you could ever possibly get....

and if we are all going with the assumption that there is no
"perfect" dog then why repeat.... why not try something else in hopes of achieving that perfect dog.... repeats just give you more of the same... unless of course you think that your dogs are perfect.... and even then repeating does nothing for genetic diversity..... and does nothing to help the breed....

S

[txcollies]

I don't recall ever asking for your opinion.
Repeating a breeding doesn't mean that you'll get the same quality of pups as you got from the first litter. It was a good linebreeding that produced some nice dogs.

Those three breeding combined didn't even produce close to 20 pups. The breeder did what she wanted to do and that's her buisiness. Those pups went on to be farm/ranch dogs, show dogs, dogs useful in several different kennels breeding programs, and no one has any reason to say anything negative about what that breeder chose to do.

repeats just give you more of the same... unless of course you think that your dogs are perfect.... and even then repeating does nothing for genetic diversity..... and does nothing to help the breed....

They don't just give you more of the same. Genetic wise, yes, quality wise no. I've seen a litter turn out nice and someone repeat that breeding and the puppies out of the second litter were horrible dogs that I'd be ashamed to have my name on.

I am quite well versed about breeding dogs, thank you.

if all you care about is winning then sure thats great
but if you are really trying to better your breed then doing a repeat breeding says that you got the best that you could ever possibly get....

I have no problem with repeats, if someone makes that choice, fine with me. It's their dog, their time and money and their effort. And don't assume that just because someone repeats a breeding they aren't trying to better the breed. No one asked you to be their judge or conscience.

Insults and name calling edited CS

[txcollies]

It isn't that I don't want to hear it, (you love to try to guess everyone's motives, don't you? I've heard what you said about repeat breedings many times by better than you).

It's just that I have a different opinion from you. (that seems to drive some people crazy)

And really, no one ASKED you opinion. I simply stated something and you jumped in.

*shrugs* some people repeat, and some don't. It's up to each and every breeder.

[sw_df27]

TX to be quite honest your on a public forum so it really doesn't matter if you asked for anyone's opinion or not when you post on a public forum you can only expect for others to voice thier opinions just like you do yours. Oh and 3 breeding can produce 20 pups or more all my dogs came from litters of 12 I don't think shalva was saying that breeding produced 20 pups I think she was just making a point of what could happen with 3 breedings.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by txcollies

It isn't that I don't want to hear it, (you love to try to guess everyone's motives, don't you? I've heard what you said about repeat breedings many times by better than you).

It's just that I have a different opinion from you. (that seems to drive some people crazy)

And really, no one ASKED you opinion. I simply stated something and you jumped in.

*shrugs* some people repeat, and some don't. It's up to each and every breeder.

yeah aparently it does because you reacted.

why on earth did you post on a forum then?

Just because Shalvas opinion is different than yours doesn't make her *snotty*. If you really think a different opinion makes us snotts then we all must be.

[txcollies]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

yeah aparently it does because you reacted.

why on earth did you post on a forum then?

Just because Shalvas opinion is different than yours doesn't make her *snotty*. If you really think a different opinion makes us snotts then we all must be.

It's not that her opinion is different. I have no problem with what anyone else thinks about various issues. It's *how* she jumps in and says things. I stated something that had happened to a friend of mine and, and I get a lecture on 'why not to repeat breedings'. I didn't ask for her opinion.

I'm on many public forums and I rarely jump in on someone else, even if I think they are wrong. I usually don't give my opinion unless it's asked. Even in cases where the OP is clearly wrong. (which I wasn't)

And I know very well this is a public forum.

Xeph, I hope your friend's litter turns out well. I bet they'll be cute puppies.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by txcollies

It's not that her opinion is different. I have no problem with what anyone else thinks about various issues. It's *how* she jumps in. Not everyone is interested.

I'm on many public forums and I rarely jump in on someone else, even if I think they are wrong. I usually don't give my opinion unless it's asked. Even in cases where the OP is clearly wrong.

And I know very well this is a public forum.

she questioned what a repeat breeding would do for the breed and then gave her take on it.

Iam not a dog breeder but i breed other species. I know i always strive for better and usually put my girls with different or better males if i have access to them. The gene pool is only so big, why shrink it?

I'd rather spread it around and see what I can get rather than produce lots of animals that carry the same genes. Granted theres alot more involved in dogs, but in a world where you can breed your dog with any dog on the planet I see very little reason to repeat a breeding. Like i admit. Not an expert. But thats what makes sence to me.

The idea is to always move "forward" there is always better stock available IMO.

[Laurelin]

Sometimes repeat breedings can be very useful, but it would depend on the individual dogs and breed involved. i know of one very successful pap breeding that was repeated twice after the initial breeding.

Of course, the difference with this breeding is that the dogs being bred 3 times actually only gave you 4 pups....

[Xeph]

No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.

I don't know if there's a misunderstanding, but this bitch was NOT supposed to be bred this heat at ALL. The owner just wanted her to be sent out and some points accumulated towards her championship.

It was unlikely she would have been bred at all in the next year due to the litter she just had six months ago.

And txcollies, thank you, you said what I was trying to say. I've no problem with a differing opinion...I have a problem with the way that opinion was stated....especially since she has already put herself above the rest of us because HER way is the BEST way.

I'm just hoping the best for the bitch, and so is her owner.