[Annamarie]

So we saw the dog behaviorist the other day. I'm not sure what to think so far.

First of all, my dog absolutely hates her. More than most people. I think it MAY have something to do with the fact that she was wearing strong perfume (we could still smell it in the house 2 hours after she left), and also he didn't have a walk that day as I had a midwife appointment and some running around to do during the day and didn't get a chance.

She came over and asked a bunch of questions, our consultation was 2 hours! She says that we've done a really good job with him so far, and yes we've made a few minor mistakes but nothing that's caused any damage. So that's good.

The training approach she wants to try to get him over his fear of strangers is to have him on a leash and have her slowly get closer and closer while giving him treats until he allows her to touch him. I'm willing to give it a try because she's the expert but quite honestly I have my doubts, and here's why.

1) When we first got him, we tried that method for two days and obviously it didn't work. We couldn't get near him.

2) We've had strangers try to give him treats to make him associate strangers with good things, and in my opinion all it does is prolong the growling and defensive behavior. I told her about my concern, that giving him a treat when he's doing that behavior might be rewarding that behavior and encouraging it, and she said that dogs don't think that way. Yet the entire 2 hours she was here he refused to take treats from her hand, his hair was up on end, and he was growling and very fearful.

3) I've quite honestly had better luck just telling people to completely ignore him. Ignoring him completely he calms down within a few minutes and although he won't allow a stranger to pet him, he might come up and sniff them or lick their fingers (at which point we usually give the stranger treats give him) but as long as it's on his terms he's much calmer.

4) doing this method he MAY get used to her within a few hours, but we would have to do this with every single person. he seems to take every person on an individual basis and doesn't generalize that all strangers are ok because they give me treats. he knows "i like this person because they have tasty hand cream on" or "this lady always has treats in her purse for me" or "this person tried to pick me up, I won't go near him". if he has a like or dislike for someone, it's pretty concrete.

She did have a lot of good suggestions, like putting him in his crate with the door closed when people come over with a special treat he only gets when we have visitors. She also suggested teaching him to sit under a palm as a "trick" which is something along the lines of what I did a few months ago teaching him to lick the palms of peoples' hands (it usually stops them from trying to pet him over his head too).

She also says that although the ecollar does work to stop him from barking it's not really a good thing to teach a dog not to bark in general. This makes them unpredictable because they no longer give a warning. Which is a really good point, I never even thought of that.

She said that he's fine to be off leash as long as we let him drag a long line so that if he throws a barking fit at a stranger we can reel him in instead of trying to catch him. She said that when he goes into those fits, there's nothing we can do as he's already topped right out with fear and absolutely cannot mentally process any command. Once he gets to that point it's already too late to do anything, so we have to be on guard to stop it before he shows any signs of fear. She also says to avoid the trail we usually walk on until we're able to recondition him to not be fearful there, since he already walks there at some level of stress and anxiety and it doesn't take much to push him over the edge. Dragging the line isn't a bad idea except that when we've tried it in the past he's absolutely terrified of it. An entire 2 weeks of camping he had to be tied and never got used to it.

The other concern I have is that she feels his behavior is bad enough to warrant the use of anti anxiety medication. She told us to discuss this with the vet. She said the reason is because his stress levels are so high that even in his own house he jumps at every noise etc and it's causing damage to his body just like any human under stress. This isn't a long term solution but something to be used with the behavior modification for a short time (though she said it could be up to a year or longer).

I'm hesitant to put him on medication and we really can't afford to be spending hundreds of dollars on a trainer (she's $40 an hour) for a long period of time. I'm willing to give this a try this week but if it doesn't go well I don't know.

I did go to the health food store and buy "rescue remedy" for pets along with two add-ons that come with it specifically made to calm tense high strung pets and relax fears. I know that this isn't the same as medication but I thought I would try it first. It did seem to make him a tiny bit calmer, when my SO came home from work he didn't throw as big a fit as he usually does from being overexcited, and when someone came to the door he actually looked at me instead of ignoring me, but this is something that has been improving on its own lately without the drugs.

Any advice or input is welcome, on the behaviorist stuff or the rescue remedy.

[Darkmoon]

Rescue Remedy is a great natural drug. I'm glad you went that way first. I had Carter on that for 2 months and it worked really well on his anxiety, even better then what the Vet gave me to put him on. It does that a little while for it to kick in. Thinking about it, I might put Nubby on it while he is in the Kennel. That might make him feel better....

Have you tried to have the stranger drop the treat as they walk past him? They just completely ignore him but as they walk in they drop some chicken on the floor so that way the dog learns guest = yummy food. I would try that instead of the guest actually handing him the treat since ignore him calms him down better and then he's also getting the treat so he learns stranger = good.

Great job on what you are doing. Your a great owner A lot of people would have given up already so great job and keep it up.

[TooneyDogs]

Would you say that your attitude towards her was skeptical/leery early on during the consultation? Do you think he picked up on that and reacted the way he did?
Treats/strangers may take weeks or months to change the perception that strangers are good.

[Annamarie]

I was definitely not skeptical, I was releived to see her because I thought finally someone was here to help us! I honestly think it was her perfume, the fact that she did not ignore him, and the treats that made him react that way.

As far as the treats with strangers... he'll be 2 in september and we've tried the treats with strangers since he was 11 weeks old. So I would think if it hasn't worked by now it's not going to?

[Noel Redwood]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

So we saw the dog behaviorist ...

First of all, my dog absolutely hates her... he didn't have a walk that day ...

... a few minor mistakes but nothing that's caused any damage...

...honestly I have my doubts...

1) ... We couldn't get near him...

2) ...I told her about my concern, that giving him a treat when he's doing that behavior might be rewarding that behavior and encouraging it, and she said that dogs don't think that way...

3) ... Ignoring him completely he calms down within a few minutes and although he won't allow a stranger to pet him, he might come up and sniff them or lick their fingers ...

4) doing this method he MAY get used to her within a few hours, but we would have to do this with every single person...

... teaching him to lick the palms of peoples' hands (it usually stops them from trying to pet him over his head too)...

She also says that although the ecollar does work to stop him from barking it's not really a good thing to teach a dog not to bark in general...

... She said that when he goes into those fits,... it's already too late to do anything, so we have to be on guard to stop it before he shows any signs of fear...

The other concern I have is that she feels his behavior is bad enough to warrant the use of anti anxiety medication...

I'm hesitant to put him on medication ... I'm willing to give this a try this week but if it doesn't go well I don't know...

Any advice or input is welcome, on the behaviorist stuff or the rescue remedy.

Several thoughts, first I agree that meds aren't the way to go. I don't know what his exercise schedule is like, but step it up a couple of notches. If you walk him once a day, run him in the morning for 45 minutes and walk him 45 minutes in the evening. This will not only relieve some stress, it will also (if you enforce discipline on the walk, e.g. you lead, he sniffs and relieves only when you say so, you correct his barking, etc.) give him some security that you can protect him, thus getting rid of some of his perception for fear reaction.

I agree NOT to reinforce any growling or barking w/ treats. I like the ignore and let him approach and sniff. Then when and if he's calm, give petting and/or treats. And many dogs don't like petted on the top of the head by strangers (much less a skittish/fear aggressive dog). My dog adores almost everyone and still would rather sniff/lick and then be petted on chin or chest until she gets to know the person.

I agree not to use the ecollar in that situation especially with a skittish dog, an ecollar will only heighten paranoia. And I agree that any signs of fear should be correct quickly by redirecting the dog's attention.

Lastly but very importantly, dogs have an uncanny ability to sense emotions, feelings, state of mind. So, although from what you describe, your dog's root problem is inherited temperament, its important that you an others in your household remain relaxed and not anticipate negative behavior from your dog.

P.S. stick with it, it takes a lot of will power to overcome such ingrained problems in dogs. Also, it sounds to me like you should go a different direction as far as the behaviorist is concerned b/c it sounds like you aren't totally sold. You must be for it to work, as success depends upon you as much as the dog.

[Darkmoon]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

As far as the treats with strangers... he'll be 2 in september and we've tried the treats with strangers since he was 11 weeks old. So I would think if it hasn't worked by now it's not going to?

But HOW are you having the strangers give him treats? There are many different ways of doing so and while one may not work, another way may. Also it may also depend on what treat you are using. When I had Carter, the only thing that would get his attention away from other dogs was cheese. I could use the best smelling meat on the market and he didn't care, but cheese would stop him in a heart beat. For Nubby it's hot dogs.

Remember dogs live in the now. Just because something didn't work yesterday just ment you didn't take the right approach to it. Try it again today with a new approach.

[Annamarie]

We usually had the stranger throw him the treat or offer it from their hand. Sometimes he would take it from their hand slowly, but he almost always backs away chewing it while growling. I never thought to have them just drop treats.

I'll try her approach with different more appealing treats and I'm willing to give it a shot. We'll have to see how it goes. I'm willing to keep an open mind but I have to be realistic too.

As far as his excersize schedule, he gets walked once a day for 45 minutes, sometimes twice. Usually that involves at least 10 minutes offleash (not in the trail anymore, but at the field nearby that is usually empty in the evenings). It does help to take the edge off, but in the beginning I was walking him 6 km a day and he wasn't even winded nor did it help much with his reaction to strangers. The only thing that has helped is the ignoring him.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

First of all, my dog absolutely hates her. More than most people. I think it MAY have something to do with the fact that she was wearing strong perfume (we could still smell it in the house 2 hours after she left), and also he didn't have a walk that day as I had a midwife appointment and some running around to do during the day and didn't get a chance.

I've never met a dog who was capable of hate, so I'll assume you mean he was more reactive than normal. Could it have been the perfume? Sure, and why this behaviorist was flooded with perfume is awkward. This is a no-no among behaviorists, but if she was handling other dogs prior, that can be a reason too. Something is out of sorts here.

The training approach she wants to try to get him over his fear of strangers is to have him on a leash and have her slowly get closer and closer while giving him treats until he allows her to touch him. I'm willing to give it a try because she's the expert but quite honestly I have my doubts, and here's why.

1) When we first got him, we tried that method for two days and obviously it didn't work. We couldn't get near him.

Two days is hardly enough time for any method to work. You need to think of these things in terms of month and after hundreds and hundreds of trials. Search Youtube for Sophia Yin and the first video should be similar to what your behaviorist is suggesting. Consider the dog's reaction in the video and see how similar it may be to your dog.

2) We've had strangers try to give him treats to make him associate strangers with good things, and in my opinion all it does is prolong the growling and defensive behavior. I told her about my concern, that giving him a treat when he's doing that behavior might be rewarding that behavior and encouraging it, and she said that dogs don't think that way. Yet the entire 2 hours she was here he refused to take treats from her hand, his hair was up on end, and he was growling and very fearful.

This is a stimulus control problem, not a methodology. The dog was obviously over threshold, so any classical conditioning that may have been earned is lost in this fact. When classical conditioning prevails (dog won't take food), the dog's behavior is respondent, therefore you aren't, you can't, reinforce any behavior, growling, sitting, or otherwise.

Where behaviors like growling are reinforced with treats happens only in the realm of operant conditioning. That's not what's dominating here, so it's true in a sense that the dog is not thinking this way. You aren't using the treats to reinforce a behavior you can observe, like sitting or growling, or lunging. Your using the treats to change the dog's association with whatever is making him fearful.

4) doing this method he MAY get used to her within a few hours, but we would have to do this with every single person.

No one said this would be easy, and yes, I would recommend that you do it with every single person. Imagine your dog's reactivity like a boiling pot of water. Your job is to keep the lid on that pot so it doesn't boil over. If you peek too often under the lid you'll eventually get burned. so don't peek under the lid. Sound like hard work? You bet! However, the more often you control your dog's environment, the quicker he'll catch on to what's occurring in his environment. So, in a few months time what was a dog that reacted to people at 50 ft away can become a dog who doesn't react 10 ft away. It all depends on what you want and how committed you are to improving your dog's condition. No one here envies you, but we trust you'll do what's best for your dog.

I'm willing to give this a try this week but if it doesn't go well I don't know.

A week is not enough time and if I knew this was your commitment level I'd probably refer you to someone else. Not that I don't understand your situation, but it's unrealistic for what you need. The commitment level of the owner is probably the number one reason why training protocols don't work. So consider this as you proceed.

[Annamarie]

when we first got him he spent 2 days in his cage not letting us anywhere near him. we kept trying to coax him out with treats, gradually getting closer and closer. it didn't help at all, he wouldn't let us anywhere near him. finally when we gave up and ignored him completely, and after we had phoned the breeder and told her what was going on and that maybe this pup was too much for us to handle, he came out of his crate all on his own within a few hours and all of a sudden wanted to play and be cuddled. i understand that two days of trying one method isn't going to fix the problem permanently and completely, i'm just trying to explain that I don't want to pay her by the hour to try something that we already tried for 2 days straight and have had other people try repeatedly (every one of our friends has given him plenty of treats whenever they come over) and obviously didn't work. especially when ignoring him seems to be the key.

i understand what you're saying about pushing his threshold, but that's already getting better on its own (with time and persistance and his age). whereas he used to react to strangers with aggression during walks from a block away, now he might look at them but will ignore them completely unless they talk to him or try to pet him. but i'm willing to try her method because who knows, it might work!

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

i'm just trying to explain that I don't want to pay her by the hour to try something that we already tried for 2 days straight and have had other people try repeatedly (every one of our friends has given him plenty of treats whenever they come over) and obviously didn't work.

Again, two days is not long enough to make any value judgment on how effective a method is. Plus, you're not paying her to fix your dog - you're better off sending your dog to a board and train if that's what you want (not recommended). Your paying her to gain the insight and tools necessary to execute the protocol.

Behavior modification is extremely, extremely simple (you've got that part, change the dog's association to people), but not easy. Why is it not easy? The dog's environment is not always easy to control. You should be paying your behaviorist to show you ways to better control your dog's environment. It sounds like she gave you some ideas on that. It's not easy because behavior modification is also a mechanical skill. You may think you have the best timing, your body cues are consistent, and you can read your dog's body language well, but you should be paying your behaviorist to teach you how to improve yourself in this area. Why training protocols don't work is not always about the obvious, how the dog behaves. It's also about your behavior and how that can be changed.

I'd recommend keeping a journal and writing all your questions down. Perhaps this way you can better judge whether your questions are being answered. It doesn't sound as though you asked what your behaviorist's expectations were?

[Annamarie]

no we didn't really ask her what her expectations were. What you say makes sense though, we're paying her for the tools to fix the problem. I'm not a dog expert, and although I can read basic body language cues obviously I've been missing something and hopefully she can help fix my timing or understanding. she asked if i felt in control and I said absolutely not. because I really feel like I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing sometimes.

i'm definitely willing to do the homework though!

ETA: I looked at the video. Although my dog isn't that aggressive towards people (just defensive and fearful), it does appear to work so that gives me hope. thanks for the link!

[terryjeanne]

I have a sheltie that won't let anyone (other than family) pet her. She has a very large "safe space" around her.

The first time the behaviourist came to our house, the dog frantically barked and slightly lunged (front feet a bit off the ground) at her for the first 15-20 min. Same as yours, she said her barking was uncontrolled and she wasn't even remotely listening to me when she was like this.

She told me to tell dog "go say hi" and dog would go up to stranger, instructor,friend etc. on her terms. I think my dog was more comfortable if she was able to just go sniff a pant leg, or shoe then she was rewarded. I think it took about 5 classes before the assistants at obedience could lightly touch her shoulder, but they did

I didn't notice a difference with the rescue remedy to I recently tried Biocalm. Too early to tell if it works yet.

I don't think your dog hated the behaviourist. I think mine easily senses my emotions. I tried walking her with the leash through my belt and I noticed she was a bit calmer--which tells me how tense I am without realizing it. I'm a loser

She's making progress, albeit very slowly, but I blame that on my mistakes.

Keep a journal and write down any questions for the next visit.

[Annamarie]

I'm glad to hear people have had success with the rescue remedy! A question, how long did you keep your dogs on it? My main concern is that the add-ons contain 28% alcohol. Sure he's only getting 2 drops a day but still.

I personally do think it takes the edge off a bit. I was able to walk him to the field to run around today the shortcut way which usually makes him pull and whine and be hyper, but he was SO much better. He even stopped to sniff at some bushes on the way, normally nothing slows him down because all he wants to do is get to his run

[melgrj7]

We tried using rescue remedy regularly with Allie. It helped some, but not enough. She is on prozac now. Our goal is to have her off it in 6 months or less. She just gets to that point so easily where they are over threashold, freaking out so much that nothing can get their attention. Our hope is that the prozac will lower the anxiety just enough that we can get through it to her and show her that there is another way to be. We have been working with a trainer since we got her (in april) before putting her on medication, and are still working with the trainer. It is just impossible to control the environment enough to where there is nothing that will set her off. We try, we take her out at times when there is usually less people and dogs around. We walk her late at night and run her very early in the morning, but there are still usually a few people and dogs out.

[Darkmoon]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

I'm glad to hear people have had success with the rescue remedy! A question, how long did you keep your dogs on it? My main concern is that the add-ons contain 28% alcohol. Sure he's only getting 2 drops a day but still.

I had Carter on it for 2 months before our vet said "try this med" and took him off. The Alcohol evaporates when you place it in the water so your pup isn't getting as much as you think. 2 drops is nothing. Carter was getting a full eye dropper every time I changed his water bowl. The great thing about it being all natural you can really use it as long as needed. Just wean you dog off of it when your training is getting better.

[Annamarie]

thanks!

mel, I'd be interested to know how the prozac goes, as that's our next step if the natural route doesn't work. we have the same problem where he goes over his threshold and training is impossible.

[Criosphynx]

you mention the dog does better when it is ignored. I think you may be onto part of your answer.


Correct me if im wrong but I thought insecure dogs need extra "space" right?

Tippy was a fear biter and terrified of us and the other dogs when she came home. I read up on it, took the advice, and basically chose to ignore her unless she was displaying a desirable behavior, which we then reinforced.

It took several months, and it is a work in progress like anything else.

Huge huge difference . She has self confidence now and likes people/dogs now, this is the same dog that hid under the table for a month and was snappy.

This is a q&a on fear biting/fear aggression, i hope you can find it helpful.
http://leerburg.com/qafear.htm

[poodleholic]

The training approach she wants to try to get him over his fear of strangers is to have him on a leash and have her slowly get closer and closer while giving him treats until he allows her to touch him. I'm willing to give it a try because she's the expert but quite honestly I have my doubts, and here's why.

1) When we first got him, we tried that method for two days and obviously it didn't work. We couldn't get near him.

This is a good approach. Desensitization and counter conditioning take time. Two days is not enough time to determine anything, especially given the fact that you'd just brought him home!

From what you've said in your post, this behaviorist sounds like she knows what she's doing. However, I'm with Curb here - the heavy perfume makes no sense at all!

Keep an open mind and follow the training plan, but do tell the behaviorist that you'd prefer she come to your home sans the perfume.

[Dogstar]

The behaviorist sounds like a good place to start. Classical conditioning and desensitization are really counterintuitive - you WILL feel like you're reinforcing a bad behavior initially, but keep working on it, and you'll see fairly quickly that the dog will begin to associate whatever triggers the behavior with the food, and turns to you for the treat. At THAT point, you can back up again and now that the dog has learned to give you attention in the presence of a stressor, bingo- you've got a behavior to reinforce heavily. Until you get to that point, though? You just need to make the stressor a predictor that Good Stuff Happens For Dogs, Regardless Of What Else Is Going On.

$40 an hour is CHEAP for a behaviorist. Heck, it's even fairly cheap for one-on-one with a trainer. I think you're on the right track, but I also think you're rushing things a little- I'd give this a MONTH.

You might enjoy "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pam Denison- it's a book about how she rehabbed her HA rescue BC Shadow. I don't think the techniques in the book will work for you (I frankly don't think you've got the time or patience for them, and that classical conditioning makes more sense in your situation) BUT it's a good read, it helps you feel like you ARE making progress to really see how long it takes for a PRO to get a dog back into good behavior, and I learned a lot about observation and record-keeping about behavior from it.

More exercise is good to a point, but there *IS* a point at which you're just creating an extremely fit nervous dog. :P If he's getting a reasonable amount of exercise a day (and I think he coudl get a bit more, but I don't think underexercising is the root of the problem here), I wouldn't focus so much on that as I would focus on building attention, basic obedience skills (a really reliable sit-stay and leave it in the house will be VERY useful when the baby comes- and if he's alreayd got it? Start proofing- will he stay if you drop food on the floor across the room? What about right out of reach? What if you roll a ball? What if you begin making his dinner? :P Be creative- there's some good books about proofing on Dogwise.com)

Hang in there.

THe perfume may also be a reaction to something someone's said. I tend to go heavy on the perfume with new clients since well, if I'm coming from another apointment, I'm sweaty and I smell like dog. :P Meet outside next time? :P

[melgrj7]

I'll let you know! She hasn't been on it long enough yet, so I will make an update once she has been on it longer.

Originally Posted by Annamarie

thanks!

mel, I'd be interested to know how the prozac goes, as that's our next step if the natural route doesn't work. we have the same problem where he goes over his threshold and training is impossible.