[the mama]

Usually what comes to my mind when I hear the phrase "puppy mill" is a dirty, overcrowded kennel, with too many dogs in a cage, or too small of cages for a dog.

I met some in-law relatives this weekend, and they had three Pom's. They all looked pretty healthy, but I'm certainly not a Pom expert.

Anyway, I asked where they got them, and they said that there was a breeder a town over, who had literally hundreds of puppies. Right there, I'm thinking, "oh, god, puppy mill." But as they described the setting, the place was clean, each mom and litter had an indoor fenced area with bed in it and plenty of room. Also, they described the lady as knowing the dogs and pups quite well, and keeping detailed records of breeding, etc.

So, minus the quantity, she seemed to be legit, but I could NOT get over the number of dogs she was breeding.

Puppy mill?? Just, better than most? How do you describe this?

[InverseLogic]

I'd have to wonder if she was just in it for the money and not for the breed. That seems like a logical explanation for having so many dogs for breeding. Even if she did keep records of them, it doesn't matter if she's just breeding dogs who have medical problems or other undesirables that she happens to be unaware of.

[trumpetjock]

What it sounds like to me is a puppy mill that is just trying to avoid the stereotype of puppy mills. Anyone who isn't thoroughly informed would walk into a really nice place and say "no way is this a mill".

Also, think about it... if you were a smart puppy miller, you'd keep your place clean. Clean kennels = less infection. Less infection = more living puppies, and less returns. More living puppies and less returns = more $$$.

Also, keeping halfways decent records allows you to screen for at least the most obvious genetic diseases, like the ones that would show up before someone had bought the puppy already.

If I were a puppy miller, I would run it just like that.

[Nargle]

Well, maybe a closer description would be a Kennel? She obviously seems to care enough to make sure the pups are clean and possibly healthy. But on that grand of a scale, you simply cannot provide the pups with enough human attention, unless of course you start hiring people. So, essentially, she's just raising pups to sell them. She's running a business! Sure she might be keeping them from becoming filthy and imeciated, but she's not raising every single one of her puppies with love and affection to become the most balanced puppies possible. So she definitely ISN'T a responsible breeder. Good breeders will raise their pups underfoot, so they get used to actually living with a family.

And plus, you don't know where she gets her dogs, or what kinds of health testing she does. She could be breeding littermates and unhealthy or unstable dogs together. How do you know she isn't breeding a pup that won't die in a year? A pup's genetic health has nothing to do with the cleanliness of the kennels or how well each breeding is documented.

I'm being paranoid, but that's a BIG thing to consider when buying from a breeder!

[rosemaryninja]

I'd probably classify her as a BYB.

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

I'd probably classify her as a BYB.

Not me. To me a BYB is someone who has a an unaltered dog, decides it would be cool to breed it and make a little money, finds another random unaltered dog of the same breed and goes to town.

They don't have multiple litters going, and it isn't their main source of income. It isn't their business, it's just something they do from time to time without any care for the quality of dogs they put out.

[Nargle]

I agree with Trumpetjock. BYBs are usually inexperienced and don't know what they're doing. They think it would be novel or it could bring in some extra cash on the side. But this place sounds like they know exactly what they're doing! They're running a profitable business.

[alphadoginthehouse]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

I'd probably classify her as a BYB.

I'm going out on a limb here...what is a BYB?

Also, just because a place is clean and she has records, how many litters have each female had? If each female has litter after litter that is a puppy mill IMO, no matter how clean it is!

[InverseLogic]

Originally Posted by alphadoginthehouse

I'm going out on a limb here...what is a BYB?

Read Trumpetjock's post. That defines it pretty good. By the way, it stands for "Backyard Breeder".

[alphadoginthehouse]

Thanks Inverse...I knew it had to be something simple

When are you going to get a picture of Atlas in your signature?

[Dogstar]

She'd be a kennel and might be a mill- but she could also be that one in a million large reputable kennel (I don't think there's many- maybe not ANY- left in most breeds, but they do exist.)

[UrbanBeagles]

Originally Posted by the mama

I met some in-law relatives this weekend, and they had three Pom's. They all looked pretty healthy, but I'm certainly not a Pom expert.

Anyway, I asked where they got them, and they said that there was a breeder a town over, who had literally hundreds of puppies. Right there, I'm thinking, "oh, god, puppy mill." But as they described the setting, the place was clean, each mom and litter had an indoor fenced area with bed in it and plenty of room. Also, they described the lady as knowing the dogs and pups quite well, and keeping detailed records of breeding, etc.

So, minus the quantity, she seemed to be legit, but I could NOT get over the number of dogs she was breeding.

Puppy mill?? Just, better than most? How do you describe this?

Honestly, puppy mill was coined by the ARs, so I really hate that term. There are PLENTY of disreputable breeders with genetic junk, no ethics, and house pups living in filth. Altho I know a few show breeders who fit that description lol They're simply just bad breeders, and they come in all shapes, sizes, types - they can have 5 dogs or 500, and they're still breeding sickly pups.

What you describe is a commercial breeder. A large scale breeder who sells pups as a profession (i.e. a professional breeder). These people are NOT inherently puppy mills, disreputable or selling sick pups, etc. Just as you would screen a hobby, show or working breeder thoroughly that found one who best suited what you were looking for, so should you screen all professional breeders. Many are good, some are bad. Just as many show breeders with 5 dogs living on a fluffy pillow in the house can be absolutely disreputable and have overly inbred dogs producing health issues because they give more "consistant" litters and more winners in the ring. So, screen ALL breeders, regardless of the amount of dogs they have.

Also, the number of pups does not really concern me, so long as the breeder has the proper facilities and staff to help keep pups socialized and premesis clean. There are commercial breeders who have state of the art facilities with septic systems and automatic kennel sprayers to keep things clean. While a breeder with one litter may be overwhelmed and have pups living on newspapers with wall to wall poop. I've seen it. Keep in mind if you have several litters of pups, that can add up to hundreds very quickly. Ten litters of 10 pups is 100 right there. If I have three litters per year, that means I'm selling upwards of 20-25 pups per year already. Also, most commercial breeders will have the bulk of their litters at certain times of the year, when pups move faster. So if there were, say 15 litters at once, that doesn't necessarily mean that @ all times of ther year there are hundreds of pups available.

The proof is in the proverbial pudding though. If the dogs produced by that kennel are healthy, I see absolutely no problem with it. Whether we like to admit it or not, there is a market for purebred dogs, and it would be impossible for even a fraction of the most responsible owners to purchase all pet quality pups from a small scale show, hobby, working breeder with only one or two litters per year, that breeds from the home.

[Spicy1_VV]

Sounds like a large kennel to me. Commercial breeder. Most the dogs live as kennel dogs and while she might know them can't possibly spend a great time with each. Large kennels used to be popular in the past and more acceptable. Now with so many concerned about proper breeding and overpopulation you don't see many.

[applesmom]

IMO Any mass production of puppies equals puppy mill. No matter what the living conditions may be.

[Inga]

Originally Posted by applesmom

IMO Any mass production of puppies equals puppy mill. No matter what the living conditions may be.

I am with you applesmom. No other reason to do that other then money and a good breeder has other goals. IMO

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by Inga

I am with you applesmom. No other reason to do that other then money and a good breeder has other goals. IMO

I agree whole heartedly

[Laurelin]

Commercial breeder. Not a place I'd go to get a dog from, honestly. I just prefer the 'home raised' kind of environment.

[ACampbell]

This brings me to a question. Would you rather buy from a BYB that only has a litter a year and puts a health guarantee on their puppies (there are some that do this) along with say they are trying to do the right thing and do genetic testing for the basics such as hips, elbows, CERF, etc...that has their puppies in their family environment.
OR
Or a commercial breeder with a health guarantee that hires people to socialize and maybe they do keep up with their paperwork but the pups are raised in kennels or outside the home?

To me, the "BYB" that is pro-active enough to test for health concerns and give a guarantee - while maybe not breeding show dog to show dog, is the better option and more feasible than buying from someone who is pumping out litters constantly. I would think that a puppy raised in a home environment with or without children, would be the better candidate for a family pet than the commercial breeder. I would have no qualms buying from said "BYB" for a family pet.
I guess it's to say that not all BYB's have an intact female that they breed to a random stud down the street of the same breed - and in the same breath not all of them would be willing to do any health testing.

So, if the "byb" or as I would call them more of a hobby breeder, does their health testing and raises a healthy litter of puppies and guarantees they will be free of genetic health defects or they will refund and/or take the puppy back . . .I'd buy from them, it's obviously a better "investment" than buying a pet store puppy or buying from a large scale breeder that may or may not health test.

The "byb" type I mention is where I got Lily from. Puppies are raised in the house around their small children, all adult dogs live in the house as well...the puppies were very social and playful and the sire and dam had their hips and eyes tested. I can also bring Lily back (not that I ever would) if she were to have an inherited genetic problem or they'd refund my money...which I should mention was not a LOT of money at all. Granted I did not agree with what they fed their dogs and puppies but that's at their discretion as to what they feed, not mine and there was no stipulation that I had to continue to feed it.
So why would a breeder do this? With what I paid for her a good 25% went to her shots and I know she ate more than $75 worth of food between her mother and all within a 3 month time period (oh also they would not sell puppies at 8 weeks because they stated that it is better they are around their littermates until at least 10 weeks...I got Lily at 12 weeks old)
When I added it up there's no way they made a profit on the litter as they kept 3 puppies themselves...so I would say they are more of a hobby breeder than a BYB thinking they could make some extra $$ on their dogs.

[Patt]

I did a search and to me she is somewhere in between a BYB and a PM. Just cause she knows her dogs doesn't mean she's trying to better the breed. Anyone can show paper work on when the pups were born and who the mom and dad are alledgely suppose to be. Whoop dee do.

Looks like it could be the possibility of a money making deal here.

I hope the Pom's are healthy and happy.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by applesmom

IMO Any mass production of puppies equals puppy mill. No matter what the living conditions may be.

Yep, no matter the conditions, a commercial breeder IS a puppy Mill. They aren't breeding for quality, but for $$$$$.