[B-Line]

I just enrolled my puppy into a dog agility class starting at the end of June.
I have never participated or even spectated dog agility but figured it would be a fun way to bond with Maggie and keep her active over the winter when it's too cold to swim.

I'm sure I will receive information about agility once she is accepted but I'm curious to know more about it. The pros and cons of agility, the equipment needed, the time commitment, etc.

I'm not looking to do any form of competition or even becoming an active member of the agility community. I just want to have a hobby to do with puppy when time allows.

So tell me what you know. What do I need to buy? What type of cardio shape do I need to be in (to be honest, most of my exercise is weight lifting and boxing, not running) do I need to condition myself for agility?

Is 8 months a good age to start agility? Are there any training techniques that I should work on before class starts to maximize our time there?

Do I need to bring a crate? pop-up tent? etc?

Thanks
Mr. Clueless

[zolmonster]

crazy, i just posted a thread about agility, too! Hopefully we can get some good info about it!

[B-Line]

Zol,

I refuse to have any more correspondence with you until you post pictures of your puppy Standard...

[Xeph]

So tell me what you know. What do I need to buy? What type of cardio shape do I need to be in (to be honest, most of my exercise is weight lifting and boxing, not running) do I need to condition myself for agility?

Agility is like a drug...highly addicting. Only with agility, you don't get the shakes if you try to quit (Ok, so that's not true xD)

Right now, you don't really need to buy anything...for a puppy you can use many household items for your flat work.

Use a long semi broad plank to teach your puppy how to balance. A ladder (usually made of PVC for the smaller puppies) is to teach back end awareness. Dogs really don't know what's going on back there...they just know that if the front end moves, the back end follows. Walking them through ladder rungs teaches them that they must be careful of where they place their feet...without this awareness, obstacles like the dog walk and teeter can be dangerous.

For your own work out, you really just need to work on sprints if you feel like it, because agility isn't much more than a 30 second to 1 minute sprint. You're not on the course very long unless you have a slow dog xD

Is 8 months a good age to start agility? Are there any training techniques that I should work on before class starts to maximize our time there?

At my club we start puppies as youngas 8 weeks :-)

Start on "flat work" now. All flat work is is, well...working on flat ground. Teach your puppy to heel on both your left AND right sides, as in agility there is a LOT that is done on your right! Depending on how a course is set up, your dog is going to end up entering the weave poles on the right at some point, and there is only ONE correct weave entry (the dog's LEFT shoulder must enter the first pole).

If you go to cleanrun.com or other agility sites (just google agility flat work) they can give you some hints and tips for working on the flat.

For training equipment you need a flat collar, a water dish, water, and of course, the dog and lots of treats (for teaching contacts). Bring a crate if it makes you feel more comfortable. Be aware that your dog...may scream. Agility is exciting, and it can be very frustrating to a dog with drive to watch others work...it can be very MOTIVATING to a dog with low drive not to be able to be out and play.

Learning self control in the kennel now is good so you don't end up with a monster like mine that needs to be constantly moving or playing tug, lest he burst a human ear drum with his shrieking xD

[zolmonster]

Hey B-Line, I am located in the NYC area. what about you?

As far as the training goes, I am defnitely not going to be able to start the training until well after he is 8 weeks, and it probably won't be until he is about 16 weeks because I want to do some basic obediance work first.

Also, I am working on posting some photos.

[Xeph]

I forgot to mention something....

In agility, the word "No!" is not allowed unless the dog is committing a serious offense, which is going after another dog, or eliminating on equipment.

Agility is about FUN, and if you're telling your dog "No!" all the time, you will demotivate it and kill its drive for the work...this is especially difficult with a dog that is low drive in the first place.

If your dog makes a mistake, it's "Oopsie! That wasn't right! Let's try it again!" The other thing that is very hard for us to do is to KEEP GOING when WE'RE WRONG! 99% of the time if the dog doesn't take an obstacle it is OUR FAULT! We may have SAID the right command, but they're paying a LOT more attention to our body language.

For example, this last Wednesday at agility class, we had an obstacle discrimination (This gives a dog two options). It was a tunnel underneath the A-Frame. I set my dog up and I sent him over the three jumps, and I told him "Go HIKE!" (get up the A-Frame)...he took the tunnel. One of the other trainers told me that my body pointed him RIGHT into that tunnel.

My fault.

We tried it again and this time I pointed my body straight ahead. I told him "Go HIKE!" ....He took the tunnel again. I looked at the instructor and she said "Yeah, no, you were right on this time. ...He chose to ignore you." That time was HIS fault.

You'll learn very quickly which dogs your dog LOVES, and which your dog DETESTS. Strauss is what we call a tunnel sucker. He sees a tunnel, he's gonna take it. They are HIGHLY motivating for him.

Strauss HATES the contacts and table. Contacts mean he has to STOP, and he doesn't want to stop, he wants to MOVE! He enjoys the teeter because it at least moves somewhere while he's staying. Contacts are demotivating for him because he doesn't like to wait.

Be aware that your puppy will kick into prey drive with all the other dogs running around, and their behavior may change drastically. One dog may be perfectly placid while the others are going around...others like mine lunge and bark and pull because they think it's their turn.

An agility class can be an extremely chaotic and distracting place, and it is your job to teach and reward focus in that environment.

It's not easy...

Work early on teaching your dog to work AWAY from you. It's hard to make time on a course if your dog is always in heel right next to you, and it's not nearly as much fun.

Strauss has a natural inclination to move out from me...I tend to direct him from behind, like reining a horse, because there is NO WAY I can keep up with this dog. Tunnels give me a chance to CATCH up, but I can't KEEP up.

My old veteran was a "Coach me!" kind of dog, and everything had to be "Whoo! HAPPY TIME!" or he wouldn't do it. He was too afraid to make a mistake. He wasn't nearly as much fun to run as Strauss, though both dogs are frustrating in their own way.

Strauss is a Bull in a China Shop dog. The great thing about that is if he knocks a bar, he's not concerned about it, where as Ranger would shut down because he couldn't stand making a mistake. The bad thing about it is that Strauss will continue to knock bars and not care because it doesn't really effect him in a negative way, and one dropped bar in ANY Agility class is an NQ.

We work very hard at making him understand that he needs to keep bars up, and in the last couple sessions, he's only been knocking bars if he's gotten extremely tired, or if my timing on my handling as been poor.

Just wait until you learn about timing for telling your dog to do something...it's a real laugh riot, let me tell you xD

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by zolmonster

Hey B-Line, I am located in the NYC area. what about you?

Zol,

I'm from the NY area and left Manhattan in 2001 (pre-9/11). Currently reside in Los Angeles, Hollyweird.

When I lived in NY, I lived on Mercer between 8th and Waverly and then on 21st between 6th and 7th.

Xeph, it sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm excited to start.

Approximately how many agility visits does it take before the dog understands what we are doing?

What I mean is, how is the learning curve. Not in terms of being accomplished rather, getting the dogs to actually do the agility?

I know it's going to be different for every dog. But on average, an intelligent, young, working breed.. What can I expect?

Thanks

Also,

My puppy is extremely FOOD conscious. If she sees that I have turkey roll in my hand, she will heel perfectly, sit like a queen, roll over like a champ, Come in a flash, etc.

But if I don't have turkey roll in my hand, she's a different dog.

Is it better to have her be food responsive? I haven't had a ton of success training her without the reward, which is also her stimulus yet. I figure it's because she is so young and I can wean her later.

She is also, obviously, distracted in multi-dog environments. But with Turkey roll, I would rate her recall at about 65%-75%.

[Toby4Life]

I've learned that the most important tool in agility is patience. Sometimes your dog will do exactly what you want, and the next time he may completely disobey. What works best is consistency from the handler to bring out consistency in the dog.

As for the learning curve - it definitely depends, which is one of the frustrating things about a group class. In my first few beginner classes we had some teams doing several obstacles fine while others were struggling. Because of this the instructor really slowed down and many of us were practicing obstacles we were already good at (not necissarily a bad thing) while others were still trying to grasp it. Basically, the class only progressed as fast as the slowest team could handle.

Also, they usually start you on smaller versions of the obstacles to get your dog used to them and gradually they will build up to the full-size ones. This works great and really builds the dogs confidence.

As for the age to start - I've read several different things on this, but the consensus seems to be that the only real concern are jumps and you don't want to start jumping too high until your dog is physically mature. Usually they'll start you out on small jumps anyway so that isn't much of a concern. Also, the facility you are training at shoud have a padded floor so the stress on the joints is less (if not I'd reconsider where you're training). If you are still unsure, ask the trainer.

My last comment is regading your fitness. Although you may need to do sprints eventually, if you are just starting (I assume one class a week) it will be a month or two before you do any real running. Even then it will be very limited. Only once you start putting together several obstacles (doing rear crosses and the like) will you really be asked to exert much energy. To begin with, all of your energy will be spent on keeping your dog focused and encouraging the behavior you want (which can be tiring in itself).

Agilty is a great sport and something I'm sure you'll enjoy. It really helps your relationship with your dog and actually makes them more enjoyable at home as well. Good Luck!!!

[Xeph]

Approximately how many agility visits does it take before the dog understands what we are doing?

This really can't be answered to be honest. It really is all about personality and drive in your individual dog. What I expected out of one Shepherd I have learned I CANNOT expect out of another!

I expected Strauss to run similarly to Ranger. Ranger always wanted me in close proximity to him when I ran, or he would pull off an obstacle. With Strauss, I need distance. If I get too close to him, he will refuse on obstacle or pull to an obstacle farther away from me.

A lot of the learning also depends on the dog's obstacle preferences. Rangerdog LIKED contacts. He was very sound with textures and angles, and didn't mind waiting. He wasn't a pushy dog. Strauss makes it clear quite frequently how much he dislikes contacts, as they force him to slow down when he wants to push ahead.

Tunnels were not particularly motivating for Ranger...Strauss is a mad man for them. Both dogs liked the weaves once they understood them, and neither dog really cares one way or the other about the tire jump. Ranger hated the teeter, Strauss tolerates it.

I know it's going to be different for every dog. But on average, an intelligent, young, working breed.. What can I expect?

Again, it depends on the individual dog and its drives. You can expect to be "pushed" a little with the Portuguese. From what I've learned, they can be independent thinkers, and thus it can make working away from you easier, as they're willing to take an obstacle and not really worry about whether or not they're wrong. The downside to that is that they may decide that they may take an obstacle that suits THEIR current desires rather than where you sent them, even though they know darn good and well where you're directing them.

My puppy is extremely FOOD conscious. If she sees that I have turkey roll in my hand, she will heel perfectly, sit like a queen, roll over like a champ, Come in a flash, etc.

But if I don't have turkey roll in my hand, she's a different dog.

Perfectly normal puppy behavior xD

Is it better to have her be food responsive?

Yes and no. Strauss is also highly food motivated, but I'll be completely honest...it's dangerous for me to feed him during agility because he is SO stuck in drive he doesn't really think about what he's doing, and I've almost lost a finger (literally...he bit me so hard he fractured a bone...he has also separated knuckle joints). He's not being aggressive at all, but he does get very snappish with food. I had to alter my reward for targeting and a job well done. We now play tug. Tug is JUST as rewarding for him as sending him through a tunnel. I keep my fingers and he knows that he's done something well. On top of that, tug is also used as a distraction from other dogs running, AND it allows him to work out his frustrations when he's tried really hard but he's just not getting it.

While he is a vocal dog, he's never been vocal when playing tuggy. I know that if he's growling while he's fighting for his rope tug, he's telling me that he's frustrated and needs to work it out a bit. That's when I tell the instructor we're taking a break and I go AWAY from all the other dogs running, and we play tug and do some light obedience so we can calm and refocus as a team.

I haven't had a ton of success training her without the reward, which is also her stimulus yet. I figure it's because she is so young and I can wean her later.

Start weaning now. She's 8 months old and is already pushing your buttons with simple commands. You WILL be using a lot of treats during agility (For targeting and what not), but she'll need to understand rather quickly that there won't always be a cookie waiting for her. Delay the reward.

I know it's hard, I have trouble with it myself, but the rule is "You get this WHEN" not "You get this "IF".

As you get into higher levels of training, you will learn your dog's threshold, and when you need to stop.

There have been points in a nightly session where we've run a whole course, and Strauss has been having an EXTREMELY tough time with a section. The very INSTANT that he completes the sequence we were struggling with, that is absolutely IT he is DONE. He is rewarded with a solid game of tug, and I take him home. I don't want to ruin his GOOD thing by possibly ending on a BAD thing (such as him knocking bars or breaking contacts).

Also, something to consider early is what commands you're going to use for each obstacle. There's nothing that you HAVE to use, you can choose whatever you want, just be consistent.

For my dogs:

Dog Walk - Walk it!
A-Frame - Hike!
Tunnel - Tunnel!
Weaves - Through!
Teeter - Go bam! (I tried bang once and Strauss jumped off the teeter and did "Dead dog" for me xD)
Table - Table!
Jumps - Hup!
Tire - Tire!
Broad Jump/Triple Jumps - Fly!
Come around/wrap - Tight!
Get away from me - Get out!
Come into me - Come/Get in!
Move ahead/push forward - Go!

You will also learn when it is appropriate to tell your dog come!/here! and when you need to use THEIR NAME! There IS a difference! In agility telling my dog to come means come into me so I can redirect. Calling "STRAUSS!" means "I need your attention right here RIGHT NOW!!" because saying his name is more of a mental jolt than saying come is. It can mean the difference between an off course and a Q.

If I have a tunnel discrimination and I need him to go over the dog walk and not suck into the tunnel, I'm not going to say "Come walk!" I'm going to tell him "Strauss, walk!" because that verbal of his name SHOULD get him to pull into me. If he should take the tunnel, I'm not going to tell him a darn thing because I know he'll suck into it on his own (You also need to learn when to shut up so your dog can just DO IT!).

[Kyllobernese]

In our Agility classes around here, you must have completed at least a Beginner Obedience Class. Agility is loads of fun, I have been doing it with Susie (my Bernese cross) since last fall and I am going to start in the fall with Remmy, my Shih Tzu cross. He is just eight months old now and has completed two Obedience classes.

[gingersmom]

Xeph, you make a wonderful agility promoter -- it sounds like so much fun!

I'm hoping to take a class with Ginger this fall, once we are settled in our new home.

[B-Line]

I agree with above...

Thanks Xeph for all the great info..

[Xeph]

Hee, thanks ^_^ I like to help where I can

[Dogstar]

Originally Posted by Kyllobernese

In our Agility classes around here, you must have completed at least a Beginner Obedience Class. Agility is loads of fun, I have been doing it with Susie (my Bernese cross) since last fall and I am going to start in the fall with Remmy, my Shih Tzu cross. He is just eight months old now and has completed two Obedience classes.

This is something that REALLY varies from class to class. Obedience is a good foundation in and of itself, but it's not aways required beyond having basic (on leash even!) control of your dog- some agility programs are designed to incorporate that into the foundation of agility training.

[Kyllobernese]

One thing I was told when doing Obedience with Remmy and wanting to go on with Agility training, was to teach him to heel on both sides and not to make him a "Velcro" dog as they have to work at a distance in Agility. The main thing is to get them paying attention to you, being under control off leash as eventually they have to work off lead, and having a good solid "Stay". Susie was so easy to get to do the obstacles but I know Remmy is going to be more of a challenge but I am really looking forward to it. They are having some Fun Matches at a couple of the Fall Fairs in our area and I will be putting Susie in them, just for fun.

[MyCharlie]

Great thread! Xeph, your information is SOOOO useful.

We started back in beginner agilty after a few months off and Charlie was having a tough time (he is a nervous dog and got spooked on the teeter before we took our break). So today was just jumps and rear crosses he did great! It makes you feel so good when you have good teamwork. Although we're still working on just *getting* him to jump again so it's slow going but by the end of class he even did a few new obstacles (triple jump and a jump I'm not sure what it's called - it was a solid board). He was even wagging his tail and was a happy dog at the end of class.

Agility is geat.

[Kathyy]

One extremely important point about learning agility. It takes only a couple weeks for an experienced trainer to teach a given dog she/he has a good relationship with the obstacles and years to train sequences. It will take YOU as a first time agility student a few months to teach your dog the obstacles and years to learn how to get the dog to know which one to take. Words count for little, my dogs know I am a total idiot about it and just cue on my body language as I can easily be giving them the wrong word or just be saying "that thingie over there". I do need to use them in distance work, he really wants me to! I went to the effort to teach left and right and never have the confidence to use it in agility and poor dog wants me to. So when the trainer says watch the shoulder, arms and toes, pay very close attention!

Agility is more anaerobic exercise than aerobic. I get out of breath more as I have to give cues at certain points so have to control my breathing than simple muscles need more oxygen. Agility is more tennis and basketball moves than running. Not that I know basketball though. Knee injuries are very common, just check out the handlers at a trial!

Do work on dog able to hold a solid stay everywhere. It is so cool to lead out four obstacles, turn and you have a quivering dog holding and he knows how to come over the obstacles and where he is going as he passes you. So cool having a calm dog that can turn into charged up player in a flash. So practice down wait, stay - get that ball or tug. Food rewards are calming, toys charge the dog up and improve teamwork. Both rewards are important tools in agility training. It is easier to control the dog with a tug reward compared to the ball reward.

The more training on the dog the better. Obedience is great but dog tricks are good as well. Retrieving, weaving through legs, simple touch my hand, take a bow, rolling over - any trick. It isn't just about control, it is about the relationship. The dog needs to be relaxed and happy to trust you in this new agility training as you are going to be learning way more than he is! If you are frustrated at teaching the tire for example [so many ways to go through the silly thing!] it is great to go off and play 'ball on the nose', or touch my hand or what ever fun game you both enjoy.

Dog is never wrong, if he has patterned a sequence not intended go in and make it more obvious to the dog. I have a friend who thinks the dog is blowing her off, it is more like the dog has lost confidence in the handler and is doing what dog *thinks* the handler is asking for. I was blown away a couple years ago at USDAA nationals watching the Steeplechase finals. There was a bit at the end where a late cue would keep the dog on the wrong lead and he couldn't make the slightly tighter turn to the correct jump instead of the A frame. Every finalist just went on and completed the final jumps and a casual viewer would never have known the dog was off course.

Yes, anything you do do on both sides! Not just for the dog's sake YOU are handed as well. I only take a gambler's class and doing the gamble one way may be a cinch but handling the mirror image may be tough for ME. Front crosses in particular can be easier one way for you.

If you have taught the dog how to go around the right side of the tree the leash has got tangled around, you have the start of get out. Put out a chair or maybe a trash barrel, have the unleashed dog go around both ways and move back and back and back. They adore this, toss a toy or offer the tug as they go around. Just model the behavior at first, have dog follow the reward around. Dogs love to work away, we humans think we lose control if dog is beyond leash length. So play this game and you may get some confidence in letting the dog move away from you.

No agility addicted person here, nope. Not me!