Need Some More Opinions

tirluc · 06-19-2008, 04:04 PM

ok, i have asked and received opinions from alot of you here that has been quite helpful.....now i need some more...as (most of) you know, i have 7 Borders right now; Tipper (11.5), Lacey (9.5), Tir (4), Saoirse (2), Titch (.5) and his 2 sibs that are left.....my dilemna is this; Tipper and Lacey both have HD and are both getting quite bad...however, Tipper, by far, is the worst of the 2...not b/c he's older or his hips are the worser of the 2, per se, but b/c he has no muscle to the butt like Lacey does....he, also, had another injury to his knee at one time and was laid up for almost 6 mo w/ only easy walks and we have never been able to get the muscle built back up in him....so, now there are times (3 x in the last 2 wks) that he has fallen for no reason, he has a hellacious time getting up, when he walks across the room and stops at where he wants to go he lays down cuz it hurts to stand....on top of this, he is deathly (and i mean, DEATHLY) afraid of thunder, fireworks, backfiring of a car (i think you get the picture there).....and lately, he's been showing signs of incontinence (he gets outside, but once there seems to have a hard time getting to the "potty" yard) and, due to his hips, he has been having some difficulty pooping.....he spends about 90% of his time in the crate, door open, of his own choice (unless there is a t-storm or fireworks going on) only coming out to eat and go potty.....over the past couple yrs he has been getting little "bumps" (kinda like pimples) that the vet has said are not to worry about unless they get bigger or change colour, and they go away and another will "show up" elsewhere

my ? is.....where do you decide that the quality of life is not there?.....lately, he has been coming to me (something he rarely has done b/4, usually going to my husband) and just sits in front of me w/ this sad, "i'm not having fun" look in his eyes.....but, in every other way, he seems to be doing good, a little sight and hearing loss, typical of getting old, but "good".....watching him struggle to get up, or watching him just fall (all 4's going out from under him) just tears at you (i'm sitting here crying as i type this, just thinking about it).....so, where do you draw the line....where do you say, he's had a good life and it's time to let him rest?.....he's only 11, for cryin' out loud.......help, please.....

Annamarie · 06-19-2008, 04:22 PM

I know what you're going through

I had a dog that I don't think was even 10 that developed HD. The painkillers stopped working (and they made his tummy really upset) and he would cry every time he got up or tried to use the stairs. it got to the point where all he would do was lay in one place and i hated to see him suffer when he had to move. just the basics of life was hard for him and i thought it would be the kindest thing to put him down. i could just tell, he was no longer happy.

tirluc · 06-19-2008, 04:34 PM

so, how do you decide this....how do you say "ok, old friend, it's time"....and then to think, not to far down the road, i'm gonna have to make this decision again w/ a girl that has been w/ me almost 24/7 for 9 1/2 yrs (Laceys getting bad pretty quick, as well).....i've done this b/4 but, for some reason, this time it's extremely hard......

Dog5 · 06-19-2008, 05:55 PM

I'm so sorry you're going through this, I know how awful it is. To me, two big signs to watch for are not wanting to eat and not enjoying you anymore. Aging brings on problems, but if he still enjoys his food and being with you, perhaps its not yet time.
Have you tried Cosequin for his arthritis? It might help and it has no side effects. It helped my Pyrenees for a while when he got older.
Wishing you the best...God bless...

4dogs3cats · 06-19-2008, 06:21 PM

We put down our lab when she was 13 years old. Her hips were bad, she was having accidents in the house. She got in the pool and couldnt get back out, so she sat on the first step for hours until my BF found her. We weighed it out. What percentage of the time was she actually happy. She was miserable enough that we decided it was best for us to let her go before she got even worse. That was 3 years ago and I am tearing up as I type this. When we moved to AZ from NY I didnt make any friends, and I spent most of my time with Indy, walking her, brushing her, she was my friend for a long time when no one else was. It was hard to see her go. When we took her, my family did not want to be in the room which is something I still regret. When we were leaving, Indy saw us cuz my mom wanted to go get cat food on the other side of the building, she saw us leaving and she whined and tried to come with us. That was the last time I ever saw her, and i can still see her in my head. She did have some spunk and energy left, but we didnt want her to suffer at all anymore. Its a personal choice you have to make.. Its the hardest choice though.

Inga · 06-19-2008, 06:28 PM

Oh Tirluc, I am sorry to hear this. It is too fresh in my mind how hard this is. I lost 3 dogs in a 1 year period of time. I still cry often, but I do not regret my choices. I cannot stand to see my babies suffer when there is nothing I can do to help them. Have you tried any hydro therapy? sometimes that helps with hip issues to keep the muscling without stressing those joints. Once the pain meds are not working, the decision is pretty much made already. You will know when it is the time.

I am sorry.

wvasko · 06-19-2008, 07:27 PM

tirluc
The only thing I would add is that for us it was imperative for us to be there. Our last Shepherd could not get up so we put him in back of our rig so he had plenty of room and I drove and wife was in back with him and when we got to Vet's office she came out and PTSed him right in the car after he munched down a milkbone and left us quietly. Any dog we had PTSed we stayed with them as they left for the Rainbow Bridge. The last was # 11. I made a deal with all our dogs, they would love us, we would love them and I would make sure they ended life with no suffering and as peacefully as possible. It was a promise.

Annamarie · 06-19-2008, 09:35 PM

i've had a few times when the vet offered to try this or that before I put the animal to sleep, but in each case I knew it would be kinder to end their suffering. I even had a hamster that I took in because she was suddenly unable to crawl across her cage to get water or food, the vet discovered what was most likely a cancerous lump and offered to try antibiotics in case it was something else, but i just knew that she was suffering and I had to let her go. and the cat that we had put down. we didn't know why she was in kidney failure, but she was 20 something years old and was in a lot of pain, throwing up etc, and though I gave them 24 hours to find out what was wrong and I knew there were some things we could try, you could just see in her eyes that she was hurting and I had to have her put down.

when it's questionable it's always hard. I think if you can no longer keep them comfortable and they're suffering and generally unhappy it's time to let them go. if the pain can be managed and the quality of life can be maintained for a short time, then I might not put them down right away but i do prepare myself that it's coming. if i look at an animal and feel nothing but sadness and pity for their state, then I think they must be feeling the same sadness.

rosemaryninja · 06-19-2008, 10:50 PM

I am so sorry you are facing this decision. It's truly one of the hardest ones we dog owners ever have to make. In times like these when emotion is flooding your faculties of reason, and you want to step back and readjust your perspective, maybe it would help to be a little utilitarian. Some people make a list of activities the dog loves to do and has always loved to do - for example: have training sessions, go swimming, go to the park, chew his Kong, do agility, laze around on the couch, play fetch, bask in the sun, or even just curl up next to you...then cross out the activities he can no longer do in his current state and see what is left.

I really don't mean to come across as harsh or suggest that you can ever possibly quantify the love that your dog has for his life and brings to yours. Just thinking about having to make this decision one day brings tears to my eyes. Our hearts are all with you, Tipper and the rest of the family in this difficult time.

tirluc · 06-20-2008, 10:38 AM

thanx all, this is all a big help (at least as much as everyone can be).....

Inga, we thought about the hydrotherapy and have discussed it w/ my vet.....at this point it really wouldn't do much good other than to give him some easy exercise....the muscle tone is completely gone (in his but he looks like one of those dogs you see on Animal Cops but the rest of him is well fleshed).....plus, the only one we have here is $60 an hr and they recommend at least 1/2 hr 3 times a wk just for maintainence....and i know that the money really should not be a factor but at $90 a wk, i have to think in terms of the rest to take care of.....if it were something that would improve his condition i would find a way to afford it.....painkillers don't help much anymore cuz alot of the "pain" is caused from his stress level....the last time he was xrayed (about 2 yrs ago) there was only about a 10% arthritis level showing on his xray (Lacey had 30%)

wvasko, believe me both my husband and i will be there when the time comes and so will Lacey and Tir.....he will also be cremated and his ashes come home w/ me (to some that may sound morbid, but....)

rmn, i've gone thru that aspect as well and he's pretty much down to walking thru the house stealing any rawhides/chew bones he can find (doesn't chew on them, just hoardes them), eating and sleeping.....if he goes for even more then about a 3-4 house walk he has a reaallly hard time moving for a couple days...

i don't know, we'll wait a little longer.....maybe the 4th of July (stress level) will tell us better......and i don't dare give him a "downer"....the amount for a tiny dog doesn't phase him and the next step up knocks him for a loop for 18 hrs (totally zoned, toweled to walk, etc)

thanx again guys.....i'll keep you posted.....

wvasko · 06-20-2008, 11:24 AM

Tirluc
There is nothing morbid about ashes coming home. I knew a man who had his bird dog stuffed, I'm not sure I could handle that. We have 8 acres and 13 dogs and 2 cats buried on property. Each with a favorite blanket or toy, one with a jacket. One year I swapped training a dog with a lady who made dog monuments and all names are on a granite boulder she made for us. These are memories that have no set guidelines, you do whatever helps you get through it. In my case as I mow lawn and pass different areas, I get to say Hi to old friends. If that's morbid, I don't care, it's my morbid and I can live comfortably with it.

alphadoginthehouse · 06-20-2008, 11:34 AM

Having to let go of a dog, not matter the age, is one of the hardest things to do. But IMO, that is the sign of a good parent, knowing when your furr baby is getting to that point, and not being selfish keeping them with you. I have had to put down several in my life (all in their teens) and it really sucks. People look at me like I'm nuts that I'm in the room, but not only am I in the room but I hold them till they are gone (I'm tearing up thinking about this myself).

My current vets bring in a small rug, let you sit down and hold the animal, give them the meds and they just relax. I stay with them and cry for awhile and then leave them there. I don't save the ashes but there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING morbid about it. We save our two legged family members, so why not the four legged ones.

My heart goes out to you and your family at this time. Just remember, he will be going Over the Rainbow Bridge and will be free of any pain he may be in now.