[petstar]

I'm a little bored and looking at different breeders online. (I'm always researching to find my ideal breeder/dog).

One thing that keeps stumping me is the health guarantee. I'll find an AMAZING breeder with wonderful guarantees and screening but the dogs seem too drivey for us or don't have the look we're interested in (we are thinking about a show prospect)...

Likewise, I'll find gorgeous dogs with great care and attention to breeding, no kennels, references available, health screening, but crappy guarantees. (12 months is not an acceptable guarantee...hips can't even be scored until 2 yrs!)

I wonder if my expectations are just too high, or if there is just truely such a slim pool of quality breeders that when I find 'The one' I'll know it without a doubt!

(One of the breeders I found (American Bulldog) had decent looking dogs, exceptional testing and a great guarantee...until I read that they are still using NCL + dogs in their breeding program and plan to continue to do so, selling all NCL + pups at a nominal cost with spay/neuter contract...however they are knowingly breeding NCL in the gene pool and I can't get behind that!)

If you are a breeder, what is your guarantee? If you've recently bought a puppy what kind of guarantee did you look for?

[Pai]

I first look for is any that guarantees of no hereditary defects for the life of the pup, and if any do develop you get compensation that does not require you to return the dog to them if you don't want to. Anyone who demands that you, after bonding with a pup, to return it to them (to be euthanized, of course, not like they can sell it again) is heartless enough that I would not want to deal with them.

Usually if they require you to return the puppy to get a refund/compensation, they plan for you being so attatched that you just keep the pup and therefore let them off the hook. Especially if the defect appears months/years later. That's just not ethical imo.

Here is a page of how to recognize 'red flags' in a health guarantee.

[Durbkat]

I didn't get Snoopy from a great breeder but their health gurantee only said to have the dog examined by a vet within 3 days and if the pup is sick to return it for another dog. Snoopy was fine except for the fact he had an eye infection that showed up 1 day later at the vets appointment.

[petstar]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

I didn't get Snoopy from a great breeder but their health gurantee only said to have the dog examined by a vet within 3 days and if the pup is sick to return it for another dog. Snoopy was fine except for the fact he had an eye infection that showed up 1 day later at the vets appointment.

You've been very luck thus far. I don't intend to buy a dog without a clear, sufficient health guarantee.

There also seems to be such a wide discrepancy amongst breeds, with certain breeds having more OFA certs and accepting it as an expectation...Coming across a decent health guarantee is amazing for me. I've blacklisted a ton of breeders that didn't meet my standards in that one area.

[Pai]

Originally Posted by petstar

You've been very luck thus far. I don't intend to buy a dog without a clear, sufficient health guarantee.

There also seems to be such a wide discrepancy amongst breeds, with certain breeds having more OFA certs and accepting it as an expectation...Coming across a decent health guarantee is amazing for me. I've blacklisted a ton of breeders that didn't meet my standards in that one area.

Yeah, it helps a little if you're willing to ship from out of state. I know that in my entire state, there are only like, 3 or 4 kennels for a CC that I'd ever be willing to buy from. And I had to search and ask around for a while to find them, and even when I did they didn't have what I wanted at the time (an older Hairless). I'm sure that for more popular breeds it must be even harder, since so many people jump on the bandwagon for the breeds with higher demand so there's more to sift through.

Have you tried getting in contact with the Breed Club in your area, and maybe ask for references from them?

[Dogstar]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

I didn't get Snoopy from a great breeder but their health gurantee only said to have the dog examined by a vet within 3 days and if the pup is sick to return it for another dog. Snoopy was fine except for the fact he had an eye infection that showed up 1 day later at the vets appointment.

Durb, Snoopy's only a year. Most health problems don't show up till later. I hope he continues to be healthy long-term.

OP, are you just finding breeders through the web? This may be part of your problem. (As may be your breed- I don't know that I've seen many responsible AB breeders who are into showing, period). I'd start hitting shows (probably UKC shows?) and meeting breeders that way. While there are plenty of irresponsible show breeders, you'll definitely have a better start, since it'll weed out anyone who doesn't show to begin with.

Another thing is finding out what's normal for the breed. For example, I bet it'd be IMPOSSIBLE to find a (English) bulldog breeder who would guarantee their dogs would OFA- but it's the norm for show/breeding/performance prospects in a lot of breeds. And a replacement guarantee isn't necessarily horrible- as long as it doesn't require you to return the dog you've already fallen in love with.

[petstar]

I've already been in contact with several top UKC showers and have mixed feelings about many.

One particular breeder really impressed me but doesn't do all the health screening I'd like "because it's never shown up in any of their gene pools". However, all the dogs were OFA cert, her dogs were raised in her home, she's active in both confirmation and weight pulling and all of her dogs have been temperament tested and well cared for.

ABs are a difficult breed because of the division (Johnson vs. Scott) We prefer one look and drive over another which limits our breeder choices.

We're looking at many breeds though and unfortunately most of the breeds that we are interested in attract, ignorant, uneducated buyers which makes it easier to find the unscrupulous breeders who cater to them.

I'm contacting breed clubs, checking references and looking for local shows. We will most likely have to ship a puppy because of the slim amount of breeders within reasonable driving distances. I'm also considering having a puppy shipped by ground to avoid the whole flight ordeal although I'm sure that would be very pricey with gas prices...

This isn't even something we plan on in the immediate future...I'm just keeping my eye out. I would prefer to find a breeder who will understand our wants and needs and that adheres to what we consider ethical practices. I'm willing to hold out until we come across the right breeder and the right dog.

What gives with the health guarantee though? No one would buy a brand new car with no guarantee or an expensive tv, stereo or computer without guarantee. Why would anyone spend big money on a dog who is not gauranteed against serious genetic defects?

[Darkmoon]

Originally Posted by petstar

IWhy would anyone spend big money on a dog who is not gauranteed against serious genetic defects?

Because there is no guarantee that it won't happen. When it comes the genetics, its still fairly new. There is no guarantee that somewhere 10/20/20 generations back one of the dogs didn't have an issue that just hasn't shown up again since. It is possible for a dog to have an health issue that hasn't shown up ever before. Not likely but has happened.

I would look into the lines, if there hasn't been an issue, I think the risk is worth it. Sometimes you have to take a risk, sadly having the health guarantee might be what you have to give on (or talk to the breeder and see if you can negotiate what you are looking for)

[petstar]

Originally Posted by Darkmoon

Because there is no guarantee that it won't happen. When it comes the genetics, its still fairly new. There is no guarantee that somewhere 10/20/20 generations back one of the dogs didn't have an issue that just hasn't shown up again since. It is possible for a dog to have an health issue that hasn't shown up ever before. Not likely but has happened.

I would look into the lines, if there hasn't been an issue, I think the risk is worth it. Sometimes you have to take a risk, sadly having the health guarantee might be what you have to give on (or talk to the breeder and see if you can negotiate what you are looking for)

Of course they can't guarantee that it won't happen...but they can reassure me that they care enough about their dogs to ensure they will be taken care of despite a crippling disease.

To me, the guarantee breaks down to responsibility. If I were to breed a dog I would want to ensure that the dog would be cared for regardless of genetic flaws...furthermore, if I produced a dog that had genetic flaws I would want to be made aware and assist the buyer with fixing the problem for both the customer and the dog.

As a purchaser and responsible owner, I accept the fact that anything can happen with my investment, an unforseen accident, illness or problem could render my dog in serious need of medical help that costs a great deal. Some of these issues, however can be avoided by purchasing a dog from someone who's dogs are screened well, certified and pedigreed to check within the lineage...as a purchaser and experienced dog owner, I expect that the dog I purchase come with a guarantee against avoidable genetic problems and that if they do arise and I am forced to part with a beloved pet whom I've become emotionally invested in that I will receive something of comparable value.

Keep in mind that I'm also considering a show prospect and a dog with severely dysplastic hips or problematic eyes will not show and will not be worthy breeding stock.

[JustTess]

When I bought my 2nd Samoyed many years ago, there was a disclaimer for hip dysplasia on the contract. The owner of my Sami's parents showed me x-rays of the hip bones with a vet's number for reference. They told me they could not guarentee the pup would not develop this condition eventhough the parents did not develop dysplasia.

The breeder I purchased from believed dysplacia was part genetics and part environment so they were clear about not refunding or compensating any monies. He was a wonderful and beautiful dog who didn't develop any health issues. Though, I did not purchase my Sami with the intentions for breeding or showing.

[UrbanBeagles]

Originally Posted by petstar

Of course they can't guarantee that it won't happen...but they can reassure me that they care enough about their dogs to ensure they will be taken care of despite a crippling disease.

To me, the guarantee breaks down to responsibility. If I were to breed a dog I would want to ensure that the dog would be cared for regardless of genetic flaws...furthermore, if I produced a dog that had genetic flaws I would want to be made aware and assist the buyer with fixing the problem for both the customer and the dog.

Keep in mind that I'm also considering a show prospect and a dog with severely dysplastic hips or problematic eyes will not show and will not be worthy breeding stock.

My health guarantee covers the dog for life regarding hip dysplasia, certain eye problems & luxated patellas. I also have an additional guarantee covering any genetic or congenital condition that "renders the dog unfit for sale or unusable as a pet" emerges within 1 yr of sale. A replacement pup or refund will be granted in this instance, and it's not necessary to return the sick dog, just the papers. My health guarantee is my way of letting the customer know I stand by the health of my pups - You're not just going to get a pup from me and then I wash my hands of it! One customer "got" the concept of a guarantee 100% when she asked if I offered it because I was confident these problems were rare in my pups. EXACTLY. A guarantee is like me saying to the customer I am honest in my dealings & want you to rest assured that said problems are rare to non existant in my breeding program. Now, the additional 1yr guarantee is only a year because most congenital problems will be caught well before them, a good chunk of genetic problems crop up in the first year, as well. There ARE genetic diseases that take longer to manifest - in my experience if they don't crop up before the dog is 12 months, they usually pop up @ the magic 3yr marker. In my breed, disc disease & epilepsy are two such problems. So why not just extend the guarantee? Well, what about other problems, such as thyroid or cataracts (not juvenille) or dialiated cardiomyopathy which occurs in middle age 6+ dogs. What about cancers that may be genetic that don't pop up until the dog is 8 yrs old?

Should a buyer be able to own a dog for 6, 7, 8 years, then collect vet bills and the purchase price of the dog becuase it came down with thyroid problems or disc problems? By that age, both of those conditions can be caused by poor nutrition and excessive weight. So it has to stop somewhere. As a breeder I can guarantee my breeding stock is healthy & tested, and we have a record of producing consistantly healthy pups. I had one buyer who was looking to cash in on my health guarantee becuase the dog developed an ear polyp The guarantee is there to protect the breeder, as well.

I will say it again. I've had plenty of dogs with issues over the years. Genetic. Epilepsy, intervertebral disc disease (2 dogs), severe heart murmurs. I know breeders who have owned or produced dogs with hip dysplasia, cherry eye, epilepsy, and heart murmurs. In every single instance, all these problems were purely genetic & developed well under a year old. Actually, 6-10 months seems to beget any genetic problems like clockwork, if they exist. After a year, the probability the dog will develop a problem goes down significantly. It is a misconception that most occur around 2yrs, I think because the OFA testing age for hips is 2yrs??? I go with the year guarantee becuase I know my bloodline, I have pups out of tightly bred litters with no health problems, and they are 2+ yrs old. You may not like my guarantee, but if you spoke to me, you would find my track record is pretty damned good.

So if you want to put 100% of your decision in the guarantee, I think that would be a mistake. Moreso than the guarantee, the breeder's ethics will determine if they allow health issues to propogate in the blodoline. It comes down to you trusting the breeder. You should also be checking OFA records for the vertical pedigree to see what dogs in her bloodline are coming from, and what they produce.

With a show dog, while some breeders may not have a great health guarantee, what they usually have is a seperate contract that will refung a good portion fo the purcahse price if any health, temperament issue or serious fault prevents the dog from being shown.

But again, what it comes down to is you trusting the breeder & their ethics. You need to keep in mind you could end up with the perfect health guarantee on paper but still get a sick dog.

[Xeph]

ABs are a difficult breed because of the division (Johnson vs. Scott) We prefer one look and drive over another which limits our breeder choices.

You think they're bad, come try Shepherds for awhile xD

[petstar]

Urban Beagles, I think your health guarantee is great!

I'm corresponding with a breeder now who offers something similar. I'm very interested in her dogs.

I don't mean to give the impression that I expect a breeder to give me a full guarantee against every thing that might happen to my dog. I just expect that when paying for something of higher quality, I should be able to expect support, reassurance and I view a guarantee as a show of confidence. Quality breeders should feel confident in the dogs they produce and the ability of their customers to properly care for the dogs they purchase.

Originally Posted by Xeph

You think they're bad, come try Shepherds for awhile xD

LOL so I hear...I was actually comparing the division to shepherd issues while discussing this with dh last night.