[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by dog-man

perhaps you don't get what i mean.

in places that have already banned pitties, i believe they can forcibly pick them up, and that's the end of story.

in the scenario i am suggesting, the authorities would also have the power to impound a dog...the difference is that the responsible owners could have previously proven that their dog is good, through some sort of temperament testing.
i'm sure some accomodation could be figured out for someone that hasn't done the testing yet, but will.

in this scenario, we don't need the cooperation of the bad guys...only of the good guys.

...because the police have nothing better to do and because AC has plenty of time and staff to handle this.....right.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

...because the police have nothing better to do and because AC has plenty of time and staff to handle this.....right.

there are plenty of city officials that would like the oppotunity to ban pitties, just like in Denver...the bans can be quite effective.

what i am adding is the chance for responsible pitbull owners to exempt their dogs.

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by Mycathinks hesadog

Passing a temperment test only certifies the dog for that period of time. Ozzie passed one, but IF I were using him as a bait dog, or abusing him, or not socializing him, I'm sure he would fail it in the future. Same with any other dog...

This is very true, but it does give you some idea about the dog. While it is a good argument it could also be argued against. Just like you can take a dog of poor breeding and raise him properly with correct training and socialization and still have them turn out to have aggression or other defects; dogs that are sound can live through abuse/neglect and come out fine being able to pass temperament test.

Someone who gets a temperament test for their dog probably has more value on that dog then a bait dog. So they are probably not going to do that with the dog. I’ve had many dogs that were not socialized at all in their life time, they were neglected and some abused. They still have stable temperaments and could pass most temperament evaluations. Others would not. Mostly because of problems with fear, they wouldn’t pass with flying colors. They are not dangerous and haven’t shown signs of fear aggression but are rather shy. It takes lots of nurturing for them to be confident and to obedience train they need tons of praise and confidence building to trust that you are not going to hit and yell at them. I’m sure in some cases of temperament tested you’d be allowed to work with dogs to a degree if they failed, it would probably depend why they failed. Even in shelters dogs if they have an issue they might work with that issue and others are PTS.

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

The problem is that if they do restrict to only certain breeding of pits, like spicey said, the bad ones will continue. IMO- we wouldnt need to restrict the breeing if it werent for the bad ones. Unfortunately it is way too easy to breed.

My SO has a friend who had an akc golden. Gorgeous girl. I dont believe that they did any testing, but they wanted to breed her. Not to make profit, but because they felt their dog was great (she really was) and more people deserved a dog like her. They have 2 little kids, a 7 yeard old boy and a 5 year old girl (approx) Fast forward to when the puppies are born. 2 are stillborn. 3 are left. The mom golden (named Gracie,) kills them one by one by stuffing them into the couch to suffocate. The KIDS find them. These are good people with good intentions mind you. THEN, mom gets a tumor. They have it removed ($2,000 surgery,) 2 months later, the tumor is back, and they put her down. She was 4 years old.

Eriks stepbrother and GF. I made a thread about them before. They have a 6 month old pit. AWESOME with Kody and Chance. They played for 5 hours straight. They want to breed her. She is 6 months old. They want to breed her soon because they want to keep a puppy. They got her from a friend who bred his pits. They are good people. They dont want to do it for profit.

Unfortunately a lot of the problems is the good people doing things for the wrong reason. I would LOVE to raise money, to air a national commercial about the problems with backyard breeding. I would LOVE to form some kind of group to get out there and educate people. In my local newspaper today there are 19 ads for pitbulls. Figure 15 of them are litters, the rest are one dog looking for a home. So take the 15 litters of about 5 and thats 75 puppies. Do you think every single one of those puppies is going to go to a responsible home?

Basically if they enforced laws that already exist in certain areas it would help a lot. One has to think that if they can’t even enforce these laws how are they supposed to enforce added laws that mandate for specific breeds only.

I agree not all byb are bad breeders. Some just don’t know any better or don’t see the big picture. I’ve still seen bad temperament and health problems come from them. How can you tell someone they can’t breed their dog, or shouldn’t breed their dog. Its hard to get them to listen, almost like telling them they shouldn’t have their own children. They just want another dog like the one they have and a pup to keep. I think sometimes education helps. There are always the really careless and irresponsible ones who won’t listen, but some will. I think you have very good ideas on it. On the consumer end too, lots of people don’t know about responsible breeders and what is the difference. They think a pup is a pup not realizing the trouble they might face with a puppy mill or byb pup. Some when they find out will never support another bad breeder that’s all it took was knowledge. Just the same some of the bad breeders realize there is a better way or breeding their pet wouldn’t be a good idea. I really wish that groups like PETA and HSUS were committed to truly helping animals. With the money and power they have they could do so much to protect the welfare of animals. Think what they could do if they really wanted! So much on a large scale.

Wow you have a lot of Pits in your area! Even in the larger city newspaper closest to use we see one or two pit ads from time to time. Periodically of course because they are popular enough but nothing of that magnitude we usually have a total of 20 ads for pups period. In the next biggest city its usually a lot more ads, lots of puppy mills I’ve noticed. Pits in that one more regularly and usually uneducated breeders, but not that many ads. I live in a smaller area in our local paper there is 10 ads or so, Pits every few months though. I see lots of German Shorthair, Boxer, toy breeds, Lab, Australian Cattle Dog, German Shepherd Dog and also Australian Shepherd ads. I think the number of any certain breed being popular in an area contributes to problems in that area. Especially when it is a “dangerous breed” because it attracts the wrong crowd and also might take more responsibility then the average person.

Originally Posted by dog-man

perhaps you don't get what i mean.

in places that have already banned pitties, i believe they can forcibly pick them up, and that's the end of story.

in the scenario i am suggesting, the authorities would also have the power to impound a dog...the difference is that the responsible owners could have previously proven that their dog is good, through some sort of temperament testing.
i'm sure some accomodation could be figured out for someone that hasn't done the testing yet, but will.

in this scenario, we don't need the cooperation of the bad guys...only of the good guys.

No I guess I don’t understand what you mean. The good guys cooperate and their dogs pass the test and they get to keep them. Which is a great alternative to not being able to have their dogs at all. But then the bad guys of course don’t cooperate and their dogs still bite mail carriers, escape the yard and bite people/other pets, or stayed locked in basements where they become breeding machines and meet the supply of the other irresponsible owners. There are still more then enough breeders in Toronto, they haven’t been banned there as long as many other places but at this rate doesn’t look like they will rid the place of them. Lots of dogs harbored that never see the light of day because they are illegal but are still bred and there pups sold. Miami is the same way. On several of the animal cops Miami they deal with a lot of Pit owners, some are not really the bad ones just have the dogs illegally, but most are the bad ones with man aggressive culls or fighting dogs. Then the evidence of dog fighting found throughout building in the city without catching the people/finding where the dogs are hidden. Then there are all the owners online who live there and own them. Most get flack from the responsible Pit owners, even though we don’t like BSL we don’t like these people keeping them there illegally. They always they won’t be caught, maybe they will be one of the ones who won’t, or maybe they will be. It just makes us look bad for breaking the law and it is also the dog who pays. If they don’t have a back up plan of where to send the dog outside the county (and if they think it will never happen to them they probably don’t have a plan) the dog will be taken and PTS. The fines there are pretty high too for having Pits but the people still keep them. If they were forced to instead temperament test them I think the outcome will still be the same. They will harbor them untested. There is a risk for them to be taken away and for a fine, but they don’t care.

I think you have a good idea in theory, the problem is just enforcing it and getting people to do it. I think temperament testing is great. More people should really do it period. In some places with a dangerous dog breed you can even rent or get insurance with a CGC or temperament test. The only reason I didn't get the ones I'd planned to do this year is because I was out of state helping in transport and doing other dog affairs on the testing date. At least next year my youngsters will be old enough so I can do the ones that missed out this year and then some.

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by dog-man

there are plenty of city officials that would like the oppotunity to ban pitties, just like in Denver...the bans can be quite effective.

what i am adding is the chance for responsible pitbull owners to exempt their dogs.

Bans in Denver effective? Sorry but I travel to Denver often enough (without supporting their economy, I do as little as possible) and there are plenty of Pits there. There are also still many coming into the shelters. My family outside Denver goes to the Denver shelter to help and what not, lots of Pits. When I go to Golden there are also people there who live in Denver and say they own a Pit. I've had people that live in Denver wondering if I have pups or know someone who does because they want a Pit. My friend who went to school there was surprised at how many people had Pits. As a Pit owner they sought a rental home outside of Denver so they could legally keep their own Pits. Yes some people got hit, big time, the officials did a lot of even illegal and wrong things with this ban, but I certainly wouldn't call it effective.

[4dogs3cats]

Yeah we have a ton of not only pits. My local paper is azcentral.com- right hand top corner is classifieds. There are mixed dog byb's, pits, labs, tons of gsd's, anything and everything. It makes it SO easy to get a byb puppy, whats going to motivate anyone to get one from a good breeder?

For instance. Kody. he is a backyard bred dog. He has a slight SA problem, but we have worked on it and he is fine. He is a GREAT dog. Theres a large chance he will never have any medical problems. There is a great chance he is a healthy happy dog. In fact I can guarantee you he is happy. But, (and as I say this it hurts,) he never should have been born. Not NOW.

I am looking forward to a day where casual breeding is okay, and the shelters arent quite as full. Of course, I know that day will most likely never come. But every litter I talk someone OUT OF. Every spay and neuter I talk someone INTO- helps a little bit.

EDIT- there are 26 matches for german shepherds. All litters. Lets estimate 5 puppies a litter again and that give you a whopping 130 puppies being pumped into Arizona. How many of those owners do you think will be responsible? Will deal with the chewed coughes, and the crate training, and the cat killing, and the parvo? The more research I do, the more passionate I am becoming for this cause.

EDIT AGAIN- godaddy.com sayd that thebreedingissue.com is available for 9.99 a year!