[KDesirea]

Originally Posted by InverseLogic

You have every right to feel like your feelings have been hurt. I wish people didn't lump groups of dogs together too. My dad actually has some hate for pit bulls because of some experiences he's had. I really hate his attitude about it, but there is no changing his mind.

That is weird because after I got Cocoa I found out my dad is the same way. I never knew but he has had bad experiences with one that a family member owned so his view has been skewed. He lives in another state but when he comes to visit next and is able to meet her I am positive he will think differently. Who could resist the way she wiggles her whole body when she approaches you wagging her tail? She hasn't met anyone who isn't her "bestest friend ever!"

[SpudFan]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

Here is the way I see it, Any discrimination of any breed is wrong. People make their dogs who and what they are. Responsible owners can take any breed and raise it right, socialize him/her properly and obedience train and you will get a nice dog.

I am sorry but your statement is just plaine naive. Many breeds are well known to be dog aggressive and to be blunt your few years of socialization are just not going to cut it compared to hundreds of years of selective breeding.

Add on top of that; dogs that are unstable; aggressive or who do not have responsible owners; and you have a recipe for disaster. My favorite is the dog that has is taken to the dog park every day and then "suddenly" becomes dog aggressive when it reaches two and rips some other dog apart at the dog park; and then the owner is in absolute shock that their little "sweeticums" could do this.

Originally Posted by doggymommy

Discriminating against any dog breed is kind of like labeling different human races as bad or good. It is the individual person who counts, not their race.

You know they are not people right? Different breeds have different characteristics. Don't be surprised if your herding breed wants to herd, or if your dog aggressive breed want to be dog aggressive. Whilst the "Nature/ Nurture" debate is interesting, has been going on forever and is probably not going to be resolved in my lifetime I respectfully am with nature on this one.

People are to blame for BSL because they don't take care of their dogs properly and some teach dogs to fight.

BSL is the result of ignorant people, not the breeds fault.

Whilst I disagree with this rather simplistic explanation I am also not in favor of BSL (even though I am predisposed towards certain breeds). With that being said I must give kudos to Spicey for being one of the most level headed and knowledgeable dog fanciers I have seen on this forum EVENTHOUGH I have no love for her chosen breed.

I get really annoyed with a lot of the simplistic arguments people with no experience with dog aggression or dog aggressive breeds make about it not being the animals fault. Guess what the dog is displaying attributes it was bred for. Manage the environment, understand the breed and don't put other peoples animals in danger because you think it would be cute to have your little precious go play with the cute doggies.

Originally Posted by KDesirea

That is weird because after I got Cocoa I found out my dad is the same way. I never knew but he has had bad experiences with one that a family member owned so his view has been skewed. He lives in another state but when he comes to visit next and is able to meet her I am positive he will think differently. Who could resist the way she wiggles her whole body when she approaches you wagging her tail? She hasn't met anyone who isn't her "bestest friend ever!"

Ok I understand you love your dog and that is great. I wish more people would. Don't however expect one cute puppy to change the way people view a breed.

[KDesirea]

Originally Posted by SpudFan

Ok I understand you love your dog and that is great. I wish more people would. Don't however expect one cute puppy to change the way people view a breed.

I don't expect the world to change because of Cocoa but I do wish people would be more open minded.

I did not originally post this to be an argument about the danger of pits. I posted it just to share how I felt about the discrimination toward my puppy that I had experienced.

[doggymommy]

Spudfan...

Well I guess here we go.

First of all I kept it simple so that the post was not 3 pages long.

I am not going to quote everything you said but I will address each issue.

I have been a professional dog trainer for 30 years and a Veterinary Tech for over 15 years ( currently still one), bred Gsd's for 20 years and worked with just about every breed of dog and fully understand each "groups instincts" ie: herding, working, sporting, etc.

Just a few years of socialization is not enough for a working dog, it continues for their entire life, I choose to own Gsd's , they are very protective and as I said their socialization never stops. Am I stupid enough to take them to a dog park, no, because dogs are unpredictable, no matter how much training.

As far as unstable temperaments, a good breeder breeds not only for the breed standard, but also for temperament and when choosing a working dog, an owner must look at the temperament all the way down the lines.

Of course a herding breed will want to herd, a working dog will want to protect and a sporting dog will want to hunt. The people being naive are the ones who don't do their research before picking a breed and then are surprised by the dog's natural instincts.

I am quite amused by your immediate assumption that I have no knowledge of dogs.

I own primarily Gsd's, therefore I train Schutzhund and have been doing Schutzhund since the late 1980's.( do you know what that is?) It is a German style of training that combines all the Gsd's natural instincts, protection, tracking and the desire to please (obedience) the dogs instincts are channeled properly and the training is quite involved. It takes years of working/training 4-5 days a week to take a dog all the way from a basic temperament test (BH) to the highest level in the sport a dog can achieve, Schutzhund 3.

Although I feel no need to lay out all my credentials to you or anyone else, since you felt the need to challenge me so directly and rudely, I will tell you I have titled dogs in agility, obedience and Schutzhund. Many , many dogs of different breeds. Many dogs I have trained in my classes have gone on to win titles as well.

If you really read my original post, you will see that it is up to the owners to research the breed they want, choose a breed based on their lifestyle and how much commitment they are will to put into the dog.

There is nothing simplistic when it comes to owning a dog.

Temperament starts with a good breeder, who breeds, as I said, for standard and temperament. Without a good stable, steady temperament, there is no standard being met.

The OP had questions about her "Pit", here is a link to a website that has the whole history of the Amstaff ( as it is affectionatly known by AKC) http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier,

although they were originally bred for fighting, it has been so bred out of the breed, it is now owners who wish to make them aggressive trying through BYB to bring it back.

So feel free to attack me now that at least you have seen just some of my credentials. I would not presume to attack you since I don't know of your knowledge concerning dog breeds. Plus I don't call people names in forums, it just tends to make folks angry.

[sw_df27]

I have to agree with spicy on everything and I also wanted to throw it out there to doggymomma while I agree with alot of what you said but the APBT wasn't originally breed for fighting they were actually bred to hunt

[doggymommy]

sw_df27,

I hate to disagree with you, but...


This is taken from Barron's Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds

American Pit Bull Terriers:

American Pit Bull Terriers make excellent, loving and protective companions .

Originally bred from a variety of bulldogs and terriers, American breeders increased his weight and gave him a more powerful head. A forbearer to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, they were originally bred to be a fighting dog. Bull baiting was banned in England in 1835 and these dogs are no longer being bred to fight.

[sw_df27]

The breed had originally come to the shores of America with English families beginning a fresh life in the new world. Known as the Staffordshire Terrier in his native England, the pit bull descended from the old English bulldogge or butcher's dog ,an animal bred down from the Middle Ages to participate in the cruel "sport" of baiting bulls, bears and other animals. Developed as the pastime of the common people, these baitings consisted of forcing fearless, mastiff-like dogs called alaunts to attack larger animals that were confined or otherwise restrained. By the 16th Century, baiting events had garnered the enthusiastic support and patronage of royalty-Henry VIII and his daughter Queen Elizabeth reportedly took great delight in the sport in which the bull-dog was often disemboweled or thrown into the crowd. By the close of the 18th Century however, increased public consciousness of the suffering of animals caused growing revulsion at this display of barbarous cruelty. Early in the 19th Century, animal baiting was banned by law.

But England's underclass could not do without its blood sport. Now they tried a new tack by forcing their bulldogs to fight other dogs. As time went on, those engaged in fighting began to seek a lighter, more athletic animal. To this end, the bulldog was often crossed with the English black-and-tan terrier, producing the "bull and terrier" progenitor of the dogs that found their way to America. Strong, agile and very intelligent, these crossbred dogs were, by nature, extremely loyal to their masters. "The wisest dog I have had was what is called the Bull and Terrier." wrote Sir Walter Scott of his beloved Wasp in 1832. Fiercely competitive with other dogs in the fighting ring, they were stable and trustworthy with people of all ages, including young children. Because it was necessary to separate their dogs in the pit, any dog displaying aggression toward humans was culled by the dogfighting fraternity. These canine gladiators often lived as family members and their reliability with children earned the nickname "nursemaid's dog" or "nanny dog". It was at this point in its development that England's bull and terrier, began to cross the Atlantic.

[SpudFan]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

Well I guess here we go.
<huge snip>

Doggymommy

Based on this post we seem to be in agreement on all of the major points unless I am missing something here. I am not sure what the relevance of your experience is here or why you are feeling so insecure about it.

[doggymommy]

Originally Posted by sw_df27

But England's underclass could not do without its blood sport. Now they tried a new tack by forcing their bulldogs to fight other dogs. As time went on, those engaged in fighting began to seek a lighter, more athletic animal. To this end, the bulldog was often crossed with the English black-and-tan terrier, producing the "bull and terrier" progenitor of the dogs that found their way to America. Strong, agile and very intelligent, these crossbred dogs were, by nature, extremely loyal to their masters. "The wisest dog I have had was what is called the Bull and Terrier." wrote Sir Walter Scott of his beloved Wasp in 1832. Fiercely competitive with other dogs in the fighting ring, they were stable and trustworthy with people of all ages, including young children. Because it was necessary to separate their dogs in the pit, any dog displaying aggression toward humans was culled by the dogfighting fraternity. These canine gladiators often lived as family members and their reliability with children earned the nickname "nursemaid's dog" or "nanny dog". It was at this point in its development that England's bull and terrier, began to cross the Atlantic.

So we are in agreement!

I really like the breed, my next door neighbor has 3 Pit Bulls and my 3 dogs ( 2 Gsd's and a Black Mouth Cur) play together all the time

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

although they were originally bred for fighting, it has been so bred out of the breed, it is now owners who wish to make them aggressive trying through BYB to bring it back.

So feel free to attack me now that at least you have seen just some of my credentials. I would not presume to attack you since I don't know of your knowledge concerning dog breeds. Plus I don't call people names in forums, it just tends to make folks angry.

I don't think one wished to attack you. You made it seem like you didn't realize the weight of genetics. Spudfan was only pointing it out.

You can't breed out 150yrs of selective breeding in a short while. I've dealt with many APBTs and owned many they each have their own temperaments and personalities. "Trying to bring it back" it was never bred out. Some are DA and some are not. There is no guarantee if your dog will or won't grow up to be dog tolerant. Considering that some AST also have DA tendencies it is silly to think that an APBT who hasn't been bred for fighting for only half the time as the AST would have aggression bred out. Most AST haven't been bred/used for fighting in many generations and breeders want to breed more docile dogs. They are still trying to achieve this, an APBT who's been bred more recently shouldn't already have it bred out. Besides the DA is really not the point is it? Its the fighting ability. They don't have to be DA to get into a fight. What happens if the pit is attacked by another dog. What happens if they get into a scuffle.

I don't understand the silly notion that its so been bred out of the breed.

[doggymommy]

Originally Posted by SpudFan

I am sorry but your statement is just plaine naive. Many breeds are well known to be dog aggressive and to be blunt your few years of socialization are just not going to cut it compared to hundreds of years of selective breeding.

Add on top of that; dogs that are unstable; aggressive or who do not have responsible owners; and you have a recipe for disaster. My favorite is the dog that has is taken to the dog park every day and then "suddenly" becomes dog aggressive when it reaches two and rips some other dog apart at the dog park; and then the owner is in absolute shock that their little "sweeticums" could do this.


You know they are not people right? Different breeds have different characteristics. Don't be surprised if your herding breed wants to herd, or if your dog aggressive breed want to be dog aggressive. Whilst the "Nature/ Nurture" debate is interesting, has been going on forever and is probably not going to be resolved in my lifetime I respectfully am with nature on this one.


Whilst I disagree with this rather simplistic explanation I am also not in favor of BSL (even though I am predisposed towards certain breeds). With that being said I must give kudos to Spicey for being one of the most level headed and knowledgeable dog fanciers I have seen on this forum EVENTHOUGH I have no love for her chosen breed.

I get really annoyed with a lot of the simplistic arguments people with no experience with dog aggression or dog aggressive breeds make about it not being the animals fault. Guess what the dog is displaying attributes it was bred for. Manage the environment, understand the breed and don't put other peoples animals in danger because you think it would be cute to have your little precious go play with the cute doggies.

Doggymommy

Based on this post we seem to be in agreement on all of the major points unless I am missing something here. I am not sure what the relevance of your experience is here or why you are feeling so insecure about it.

I am sorry, but since you seem to feel that we were in agreement, I thought I would show you your post again.

I am not insecure at all, I just like to play on an even field and as I said I don't call people naive and complain about their lack of knowledge without knowing anything about their knowledge and experience.

As I said I made the post simple, I didn't feel the need to get into genetics. I do believe that with over 150 years of breeding out a particular genetic characteristic, that characteristic can genetically be altered. If the English bred it into them, then since 1853 good breeders, breeding for good temperament, can produce a lovely breed standard.

[KDesirea]

Just wanted to mention that I found a daycare that will allow Cocoa to come and play. That is all that I have wanted from the beginning, for someone to give her a chance and judge her on her temperment rather than breed.

She is scheduled for tomorrow and from the way it sounds she is going to have a lot of fun. I appreciate some of the points that have been brought up in this thread. It has been very informative and has shown me that while I am taking into consideration her personality and temperment there is more to the genetic factor than I realized. For those of you who, tactfully, pointed this out, thank you.

[SpudFan]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

I am sorry, but since you seem to feel that we were in agreement, I thought I would show you your post again.

I am not insecure at all, I just like to play on an even field and as I said I don't call people naive and complain about their lack of knowledge without knowing anything about their knowledge and experience.

As I said I made the post simple, I didn't feel the need to get into genetics. I do believe that with over 150 years of breeding out a particular genetic characteristic, that characteristic can genetically be altered. If the English bred it into them, then since 1853 good breeders, breeding for good temperament, can produce a lovely breed standard.

What the heck lets rehash this.

Here is where I disagree with your current post.
1. I was in agreement with the points you raised in your last post. I disagreed with the comments you made in your post before that. As you seem incapable of differentiating between the two I will quote and spell each point out for you.
2. You don’t need to know the persons knowledge and/ or experience to critically think about a statement they have made.
3. I disagree with your opinion that every dog bred in the last 150 years will not have the characteristic of being dog aggressive.
4. A secure person would not display such a vehement reaction regarding their security or background nor would they feel so challenged by something that is not attacking it.

Moving on to address some of the specifics that seem to be causing you distress.

Originally Posted by doggymommy

Here is the way I see it, Any discrimination of any breed is wrong. People make their dogs who and what they are. Responsible owners can take any breed and raise it right, socialize him/her properly and obedience train and you will get a nice dog.

To which I responded: "I am sorry but your statement is just plaine naive. Many breeds are well known to be dog aggressive and to be blunt your few years of socialization are just not going to cut it compared to hundreds of years of selective breeding.

Add on top of that; dogs that are unstable; aggressive or who do not have responsible owners; and you have a recipe for disaster. My favorite is the dog that has is taken to the dog park every day and then "suddenly" becomes dog aggressive when it reaches two and rips some other dog apart at the dog park; and then the owner is in absolute shock that their little "sweeticums" could do this."

To which you responded "Just a few years of socialization is not enough for a working dog, it continues for their entire life, I choose to own Gsd's , they are very protective and as I said their socialization never stops. Am I stupid enough to take them to a dog park, no, because dogs are unpredictable, no matter how much training."

Originally Posted by doggymommy

Discriminating against any dog breed is kind of like labeling different human races as bad or good. It is the individual person who counts, not their race.

To which I responded "You know they are not people right? Different breeds have different characteristics. Don't be surprised if your herding breed wants to herd, or if your dog aggressive breed want to be dog aggressive. Whilst the "Nature/ Nurture" debate is interesting, has been going on forever and is probably not going to be resolved in my lifetime I respectfully am with nature on this one."

To which you responded "Of course a herding breed will want to herd, a working dog will want to protect and a sporting dog will want to hunt. The people being naive are the ones who don't do their research before picking a breed and then are surprised by the dog's natural instincts."

Granted you did not get into the specifics of an animal that was bred with dog aggression but I figured in the spirit of debate why get stuck into the specifics. For example I chose to ignore your straw man. Let’s see what relevance does Shutzhund drei have to a dog aggressive Pit Bull? Anyway moving on.

Originally Posted by doggymommy

People are to blame for BSL because they don't take care of their dogs properly and some teach dogs to fight.

BSL is the result of ignorant people, not the breeds fault.

To which I responded "Whilst I disagree with this rather simplistic explanation I am also not in favor of BSL (even though I am predisposed towards certain breeds). With that being said I must give kudos to Spicey for being one of the most level headed and knowledgeable dog fanciers I have seen on this forum EVENTHOUGH I have no love for her chosen breed.

I get really annoyed with a lot of the simplistic arguments people with no experience with dog aggression or dog aggressive breeds make about it not being the animals fault. Guess what the dog is displaying attributes it was bred for. Manage the environment, understand the breed and don't put other peoples animals in danger because you think it would be cute to have your little precious go play with the cute doggies."

To which you responded with a rant about your experience and experitise. The interesting portion is "Although I feel no need to lay out all my credentials to you or anyone else, since you felt the need to challenge me so directly and rudely, I will tell you I have titled dogs in agility, obedience and Schutzhund. Many , many dogs of different breeds. Many dogs I have trained in my classes have gone on to win titles as well."

Now we obviously have different views on the nature vs. nurture debate. People much smarter than both of us are going to be debating it for a long time to come. I do however find it interesting that you flip-flop based on when it suits you. For example you point out that dog aggression has been bred out of all dogs in the last 150 years (which points to a tacit acknowledgment of nature) but then state that any good owner can socialize a dog [sic to not be dog aggressive].

Based on some of your comments I am confused as to why you felt the need to expound all of your experience. To be honest instead of having what I think was the desired effect of impressing me it has had the exact opposite result of making me wonder why you don’t know more and wondering why you made some of the misinformed, naive statements that you did.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

I do believe that with over 150 years of breeding out a particular genetic characteristic, that characteristic can genetically be altered. If the English bred it into them, then since 1853 good breeders, breeding for good temperament, can produce a lovely breed standard.

Is this how you would characterize the majority of breeders today, "good". If so, this may explain your POV, and why it is overly assumptive. The majority of breeders today can not be characterized as "good" breeders. "Good" breeders and far and few between, and pit breeders are no exception.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by JDub

As a non-pit owner, if I found out that my doggie daycare provider also had pits in there, I would stop taking my dog to them. Yes, a lot of pits are well rounded, good dogs...but it only takes one to seriously injure or kill another dog. If/when that happens, the owner of the daycare is liable...thus the no pit policy. I'd be surprised if that's the only breed they dont take for the same reason.

Sorry to hear about the problems. Very frustrating when your dog is one of the good ones.

ANY dog can cause serious damage if it is unsocialized or gets otherwise startled or angered...NOT just 'pit bulls'...it's owners like you that give these wonderful dogs the bad stigma they have...I have met more aggressive labs, goldens, shepards, and cockers than I have Pits, and I groom dogs for a living, as well as take care of alot of the boarding and daycare dogs 5 days a week...so thats ALOT of interaction with ALOT of different breeds. With that said, small dogs are often the MOST aggressive...

[Mycathinks hesadog]

Originally Posted by KDesirea

Just wanted to mention that I found a daycare that will allow Cocoa to come and play. That is all that I have wanted from the beginning, for someone to give her a chance and judge her on her temperment rather than breed.

She is scheduled for tomorrow and from the way it sounds she is going to have a lot of fun. I appreciate some of the points that have been brought up in this thread. It has been very informative and has shown me that while I am taking into consideration her personality and temperment there is more to the genetic factor than I realized. For those of you who, tactfully, pointed this out, thank you.

I'm so glad to hear you've found a place for Cocoa! I hope you will hold them to as high a standard as she (and you) deserves!

[JDub]

Originally Posted by Love's_Sophie

ANY dog can cause serious damage if it is unsocialized or gets otherwise startled or angered...NOT just 'pit bulls'...it's owners like you that give these wonderful dogs the bad stigma they have...I have met more aggressive labs, goldens, shepards, and cockers than I have Pits, and I groom dogs for a living, as well as take care of alot of the boarding and daycare dogs 5 days a week...so thats ALOT of interaction with ALOT of different breeds. With that said, small dogs are often the MOST aggressive...

Um no, I'm pretty sure its the frequency of reports of severe maulings or deaths that give these dogs, as well as Rotts and such, that stigma. True, if people banned dogs that bite, ever, then no, we wouldnt have a lot of dogs around. That said, it is the dogs that bite with the intent and/or ability to severely injure or kill that get the attention. A Pit or Rott can kill you...a Cocker couldnt kill you unless it had a gun and opposable thumbs...and even then I've heard they have terrible aim.

Aggressive Golden...now I've heard it all.


edit...on that last point, I just Googled 2 phrases:

1) "Golden Retriever Attack": 358 matches
2) "Pit Bull Attack": 85,000 matches

Aggressive Golden.... oh man, where is the "rolling on the floor laughing" smilie??

[KDesirea]

Originally Posted by Mycathinks hesadog

I'm so glad to hear you've found a place for Cocoa! I hope you will hold them to as high a standard as she (and you) deserves!

Thanks.... I am sure it will be a nice place and it sounds like she will have a lot of fun with other dogs around her size.

[Spicy1_VV]

Originally Posted by doggymommy

I am sorry, but since you seem to feel that we were in agreement, I thought I would show you your post again.

I am not insecure at all, I just like to play on an even field and as I said I don't call people naive and complain about their lack of knowledge without knowing anything about their knowledge and experience.

As I said I made the post simple, I didn't feel the need to get into genetics. I do believe that with over 150 years of breeding out a particular genetic characteristic, that characteristic can genetically be altered. If the English bred it into them, then since 1853 good breeders, breeding for good temperament, can produce a lovely breed standard.

Yes 150yrs maybe, I could certainly see that. Breeds can drastically be altered in that amount of time. If you believe that then you are contradicting yourself right? Because if you can breed something out in 150yrs then you can breed something in too right? Since its the opposite in the APBT, that fight drive, fighting ability and gameness have been bred into them for at least 100yrs how you can think the few generations that people haven't been breeding for fighting purposes has eliminated it?
Since APBTs have been selectively bred for fighting since at least the mid 1800s that is a long time. Bull baiting being banned in 1853 causing a popularity in dog fighting would mean that the dogs were bred for dog aggression which is the characteristic that we are talking about. We are not talking about bull baiting dogs or those which will attack cattle. So that seems irrelevant. I doubt that since most breeders were dog fighters for over the last 100yrs they would be seen as "good breeders" but we have to face the facts that they are the ones who created the breed, kept it going for so long and their dogs are the ones seen in our dogs pedigrees. I would say their dogs did consist of good temperament except for the DA, the UKC was developed in 1898 for the breed to be registered and to sponsor matches and supply the rules for the pit matches. Considering that fact DA was allowed as per the breed standard (since they were a fighting breed), but human aggression was not.

Anyone and everyone is allowed to comment on an open forum, that is the point of it. But when you start talking about things or breeds that you know nothing about it really accomplishes nothing. You are talking in theories that are irrelevant to the present such as *if we tried for 150yrs to breed out DA could it be done?* I would say probably so, certainly but since it has yet to be done it has little effect on todays APBTs.

Just the same I would not start talking about GSDs which you've had at least 20yrs or more experience with as if I know their history, breeding, traits, ect. I know a little about them and just try to learn from others. But certainly not enough to tell the GSD fanciers they are wrong about their own dogs.

[4dogs3cats]

I agree with Spicey that you have to really understand the breed to own it. I have a GSD, and while not as bad as pits, in the 70'd they were unliked and deemed the aggressive breed of that decade. No, I wouldnt own a pit. Although Chance can sometimes be protective, he has been to doggy daycare many many times, and loves all the dogs there. I still worry about what COULD happen, but if I had a pit, I wouldnt want to put the workers in that situation. They may get nervous and pass those vibes onto the dogs. I worked in a daycare, we had 26 dogs in one room at a time. I had enough trouble getting my fav dog Rocky to stop humping Molly the chocolate lab. Things are very rowdy in there and Id hate to see something happen and escalate. Its no more than 16 dogs for ONE employee. Could you imagine ONE person trying to break up a huge fight. No thanks.

Oh and for those of you that think Goldens would NEVER do anything wrong:
http://www.nbc30.com/news/4274785/detail.html#

http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_arc...4/2805154.html

Sure theyre old, but it proves that ANY dog can bite, and ANY dog should be supervised around kids.