[dane&cockermom]

i just got off the phone with dh and we were talking about what's going on with buddy. he's trying to tell me that we need to make gwen realize that buddy is the dominant dog. i tried telling him that is pretty much impossible. that it's not something for us to decide which dog is dominant. we may want buddy to be dominant so she's not pouncing on him, but as far as her pouncing on him, that's up to our training, not trying to make buddy dominant over her. he also seems to think that while buddy's in his kennel, gwen shouldn't be up on the furniture because he'll see that and think we're favoring her over him.

so is it possible to make one dog dominant over another? after the "alpha" in the pack, is there a "beta" or does the rest of the pack kinda fall into one lump. is there really a 2nd or 3rd place?

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

I think in my experience that the best situation is humans are alpha and dogs are beta and no dog gets preferential treatment

treat them exactly the same and do nilif. humans go first in everything but dogs are equal to each other.

[Motebi]

.......you may want to take a look at this:

They Are NOT Out To Take Over The World:
Dispelling general myths of the dominant dog
Karen Peak
West Wind Dog Training & The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project

"Dominance Theory" is a big topic in dog training. When you hear some trainers talk you would think it explains every aspect of life with a domestic dog. "Why did my dog do that?" "Well, he is just being dominant and you have to stop that!" Let us roll the dog, shake it down, grab its muzzle, and let us stop that DOMINANT behavior. But wait! How correct is this theory?

How did the current domestic canine dominance theory come about? A number of shortterm wolf behavior studies. These studies were then extrapolated to the domestic dog. The wolf studies focused on a very small and structured part of wolf interaction. One example is the so-called "Alpha Roll". The Alpha Roll is based on the assumption that in order to enforce relative position in the pack, a dominant, or Alpha wolf would roll a subordinate wolf onto its back and then hold it there until it submits. Sadly, the erroneous data found its way into our domestic dog owning culture as gospel and the myth still abounds in the dog training, breeding and owning world even to this day.

To take the behavior from one species and apply it to the other simply because they share a common background on the evolutionary tree is inaccurate. Chickens and hawks share a similar evolutionary background. Iguanas and Komodo Dragons share a similar evolutionary background. Would it be accurate to study chickens and state this is how hawks interact? What about studying Iguanas and applying the information to Komodo Dragons? They are very different animals. Why do we do this to the wolf and domestic dog? Another issue is because humans are a completely different species and do not speak dog, we can only guess at what is going on inside that fuzzy head leaning on our knee. Dogs are as different from humans as a Komodo Dragon is from a duck! Trying to extend the social interactions from one species to another is as ludicrous as asking a duck to kill a mouse.

One researcher, Dr. Frank Beach actually studied dog packs for a thirty-year study. During this research, many important behaviors were noted including: * Males have a less variable hierarchy amongst themselves than female dogs (very basically, males are more predictable when in a single sex group than females) * But when the genders are mixed, the rules are mixed as well. There is very little actual physical domination in mixed gender groups of dogs. The others will rapidly quash the few dogs that may try to physically bully. Lower ranked dogs do not try and "move up the ladder" - they accept their position. * Lastly, "alpha" does NOT mean the most physically dominant dog. In fact, "alpha" does not even equate directly to our notions of "dominance". Rather, the "alpha" dog is the one in control of the resources.

When we use force, rolling, etc on our dogs, what are we telling them? We are implying that we are insecure in our position in the family unit. For a dog that needs someone to be in charge of ensuring needed resources will always be provided, seeing that provider act in a manner that indicates he (or she) in not secure can be very confusing to a dog. In order to alleviate that perceived gap in leadership, the domestic dog will often react in way totally unacceptable in human society but TOTALLY acceptable in canine society. That dog is now assumed to be a problem animal. In actuality, who is the problem? The answer is not to act with equally inappropriate harshness or force intended to show the dog that is in charge. Instead we have to take measures to alleviate confusion. Be clear, concise, benevolent, firm when needed but never cruel or harshly physical. A dog that is secure in his position in the house regardless of if he is a self confident, middle ranking or lower confident will not be a challenge. If we can get past the old school of having to physically dominate our dogs to force them into submission, then they and we will be all the better for it. Confused dogs are more likely to react. They want to alleviate that confusion. Why should we worsen it by acting as though we are confused ourselves and squabble with our dogs?

I have butted heads with many a trainer, breeder and owner regarding my growing views on dominance. I was trained in the "old ways." I have been told and taught certain breeds MUST be managed a certain way or with certain aids like prong collars. In the years I have worked with dogs, I am shocked I have not been killed when I reflect on how I was originally taught to "take control." How many times in the past have I unknowingly shown a dog that I was confused and challenging him? I have since grown and expanded my understanding of canine dominance. Oh how wrong my first mentors were! These days, I work successfully with everything from herding breeds, working breeds, "bull" breeds, mastiff/molosser breeds, common breeds, rare breeds, terriers, toys, and more by employing methods that are fun but clear - concise, and firm when needed. Though each dog is an individual and various breed drives must be understood in order to effectively work with him or her, more often than not I find that that the dog assumed”dominant" is not trying to take over the world - he is just confused. Rolling, pinning, leash correcting, yelling, etc just makes his confusion worse. Some dogs may even interpret it as a challenge and decide to return more of the same. Then what? Dispel the myths; stop believing your dog is out to take over your world. Chances are he is confused. We need to stop acting as an immature, insecure, middle ranked beasts. We have to start acting like the benevolent leaders our dogs need.

For more on this topic and resources I have referred to with my own growth in dogs:

The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, Melissa Alexander, 2001.
The Macho Myth, Ian Dunbar Ph.D., BVetMed, MRCVS, 1989.
‘Privileges Of Status' For Wannabe Pack Leaders, Marilyn Bergeman, 1999.
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals, Turid Rugaas, Hanalei Pets, 1997.
The Other End Of The Leash, Dr. Patricia McConnell, Ballantine Books, 2002.
Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution, by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, Scribner, New York, 2001.

This may be reproduced in its entirety for educational purposes.
© 2004, West Wind Dog Training & The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project

[Darkmoon]

Actually it is sorta possible... My fiance and I did it back when we rented a room from a person. We had no clue what we did when we did it.

There was 2 dogs Scooby a beagle/basset mix and Sandy a Beagle/hound mix. We HATED Scooby, dumbest dog I've met. She would poop everywhere (she was house broken before), pick fights, bark constantly and so forth (she wasn't in a good home so now that I look back I can see why she did what she did) and Sandy was the sweetest thing in the world. Such a loving happy-go-lucky dog.

Scooby was the alpha since she was the landlords girlfriends favorite, but when she moved out, Sandy ended up taking over. Before Scooby got first dibs on everything, going outside, treats, love but when the landlords girlfriend left all the attention the dogs got was from me and my fiancé and since we liked Sandy she got to do everything first and the pack status changed.

Weird but it did happen... (please remember when this happened, I had never owned a dog in my life. No clue on anything dealing with a dog except it needed to eat, sleep and poop)

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by Motebi

.......you may want to take a look at this:

They Are NOT Out To Take Over The World:
Dispelling general myths of the dominant dog
Karen Peak
West Wind Dog Training & The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project

"Dominance Theory" is a big topic in dog training. When you hear some trainers talk you would think it explains every aspect of life with a domestic dog. "Why did my dog do that?" "Well, he is just being dominant and you have to stop that!" Let us roll the dog, shake it down, grab its muzzle, and let us stop that DOMINANT behavior. But wait! How correct is this theory?

How did the current domestic canine dominance theory come about? A number of shortterm wolf behavior studies. These studies were then extrapolated to the domestic dog. The wolf studies focused on a very small and structured part of wolf interaction. One example is the so-called "Alpha Roll". The Alpha Roll is based on the assumption that in order to enforce relative position in the pack, a dominant, or Alpha wolf would roll a subordinate wolf onto its back and then hold it there until it submits. Sadly, the erroneous data found its way into our domestic dog owning culture as gospel and the myth still abounds in the dog training, breeding and owning world even to this day.

To take the behavior from one species and apply it to the other simply because they share a common background on the evolutionary tree is inaccurate. Chickens and hawks share a similar evolutionary background. Iguanas and Komodo Dragons share a similar evolutionary background. Would it be accurate to study chickens and state this is how hawks interact? What about studying Iguanas and applying the information to Komodo Dragons? They are very different animals. Why do we do this to the wolf and domestic dog? Another issue is because humans are a completely different species and do not speak dog, we can only guess at what is going on inside that fuzzy head leaning on our knee. Dogs are as different from humans as a Komodo Dragon is from a duck! Trying to extend the social interactions from one species to another is as ludicrous as asking a duck to kill a mouse.

One researcher, Dr. Frank Beach actually studied dog packs for a thirty-year study. During this research, many important behaviors were noted including: * Males have a less variable hierarchy amongst themselves than female dogs (very basically, males are more predictable when in a single sex group than females) * But when the genders are mixed, the rules are mixed as well. There is very little actual physical domination in mixed gender groups of dogs. The others will rapidly quash the few dogs that may try to physically bully. Lower ranked dogs do not try and "move up the ladder" - they accept their position. * Lastly, "alpha" does NOT mean the most physically dominant dog. In fact, "alpha" does not even equate directly to our notions of "dominance". Rather, the "alpha" dog is the one in control of the resources.

When we use force, rolling, etc on our dogs, what are we telling them? We are implying that we are insecure in our position in the family unit. For a dog that needs someone to be in charge of ensuring needed resources will always be provided, seeing that provider act in a manner that indicates he (or she) in not secure can be very confusing to a dog. In order to alleviate that perceived gap in leadership, the domestic dog will often react in way totally unacceptable in human society but TOTALLY acceptable in canine society. That dog is now assumed to be a problem animal. In actuality, who is the problem? The answer is not to act with equally inappropriate harshness or force intended to show the dog that is in charge. Instead we have to take measures to alleviate confusion. Be clear, concise, benevolent, firm when needed but never cruel or harshly physical. A dog that is secure in his position in the house regardless of if he is a self confident, middle ranking or lower confident will not be a challenge. If we can get past the old school of having to physically dominate our dogs to force them into submission, then they and we will be all the better for it. Confused dogs are more likely to react. They want to alleviate that confusion. Why should we worsen it by acting as though we are confused ourselves and squabble with our dogs?

I have butted heads with many a trainer, breeder and owner regarding my growing views on dominance. I was trained in the "old ways." I have been told and taught certain breeds MUST be managed a certain way or with certain aids like prong collars. In the years I have worked with dogs, I am shocked I have not been killed when I reflect on how I was originally taught to "take control." How many times in the past have I unknowingly shown a dog that I was confused and challenging him? I have since grown and expanded my understanding of canine dominance. Oh how wrong my first mentors were! These days, I work successfully with everything from herding breeds, working breeds, "bull" breeds, mastiff/molosser breeds, common breeds, rare breeds, terriers, toys, and more by employing methods that are fun but clear - concise, and firm when needed. Though each dog is an individual and various breed drives must be understood in order to effectively work with him or her, more often than not I find that that the dog assumed”dominant" is not trying to take over the world - he is just confused. Rolling, pinning, leash correcting, yelling, etc just makes his confusion worse. Some dogs may even interpret it as a challenge and decide to return more of the same. Then what? Dispel the myths; stop believing your dog is out to take over your world. Chances are he is confused. We need to stop acting as an immature, insecure, middle ranked beasts. We have to start acting like the benevolent leaders our dogs need.

For more on this topic and resources I have referred to with my own growth in dogs:

The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, Melissa Alexander, 2001.
The Macho Myth, Ian Dunbar Ph.D., BVetMed, MRCVS, 1989.
‘Privileges Of Status' For Wannabe Pack Leaders, Marilyn Bergeman, 1999.
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals, Turid Rugaas, Hanalei Pets, 1997.
The Other End Of The Leash, Dr. Patricia McConnell, Ballantine Books, 2002.
Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution, by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, Scribner, New York, 2001.

This may be reproduced in its entirety for educational purposes.
© 2004, West Wind Dog Training & The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project

who said anything about alpha rolls and such?

[TooneyDogs]

You're right. Let them sort it out and it is what it is.
Folks that have tried to make one dog dominant (when it really isn't) have gotten some really bad results. Lots of dog fights...the chosen 'dominant' one becomes a bully.....not a leader.....because it doesn't know how.

[dane&cockermom]

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

You're right. Let them sort it out and it is what it is.
Folks that have tried to make one dog dominant (when it really isn't) have gotten some really bad results. Lots of dog fights...the chosen 'dominant' one becomes a bully.....not a leader.....because it doesn't know how.

i tried to tell him that but he doesn't get it.

i tried telling him that they are below us, and that to them, there isn't much of a dominance over each other. i'm sure there is one, but not a strong one. neither of them have ever shown their teeth to the other.

he also seems to think that if gwen is sleeping on the bed and buddy is sleeping on the floor since he's not allowed up on the bed right now, that he's going to take that as me favoring gwen. or with gwen up on the couch and him not being able to be. before, gwen wasn't allowed ont he couch, but we caved in. does that really make a difference. will buddy think he's being treated unfairly since he's stuck in his kennel, or does he even have the ability to think like that?

[TooneyDogs]

The sleeping positions came out of a wolf study. I'm not aware of any similar study that has been done on domesticated dogs. The wolf study found the Alphas always got the 'best' spots, the Omega always got the worst spot and the rest of the pack jockeyed for 'better' positions every night.
The researchers found that there was a slight shift in hierarchy the next day based on who got the 'better' sleeping spots the night before. But, again, the Alphas and the Omega never change.
To answer the question directly....no. The only caveat is....sleeping spots can be a source of contention with some dogs but, that's a resource guarding (space) issue and not a hierarchy issue.

[Love's_Sophie]

While you can't 'make' Buddy desire to be more dominant than Gwen, as you said, your training will determine how she behaves around him...as in learning that jumping on the smaller canine is NOT acceptable.

I don't let any of my dogs on the furniture, as a general rule...especially dogs that do seem to have a more 'domineering' nature. Dogs that are more dominant WILL place themselves in a higher positiont than less dominant dogs; that's why lower canines will kind of 'crouch' in front of a dominant dog, who will keep himself as 'tall' as he can...so positions on furniture can be a more 'dominant' position for an already dominant canine.

However, that said, I rather doubt your Gwen is a super dominant dog; rather a clumsy clumbering big girl, who simply needs to learn how to keep her "paws off".

If she is 'that' bad, and you fear her harming Buddy, make sure they are in your yard separetely until you can reliably call Gwen off of him.

[Shaina]

Personally, I wouldn't mess with the pecking order, if they make one, outside of requiring respect and good behavior (however you define that) from each of them, which it sounds like you do anyway.

My old boss had akitas, and when she got two young ones (m/f) she tried to keep her older two (also m/f) the dominant ones by treating them preferentially...once the younger ones reached puberty all hell broke loose and she ended up having to rehome the younger female, and keep the younger male separated from the other two at all times. Granted, some of that might be the breed, but having watched the whole thing go down I think the way she handled it may have exasperated the whole situation...

[dane&cockermom]

Originally Posted by Love's_Sophie

While you can't 'make' Buddy desire to be more dominant than Gwen, as you said, your training will determine how she behaves around him...as in learning that jumping on the smaller canine is NOT acceptable.

I don't let any of my dogs on the furniture, as a general rule...especially dogs that do seem to have a more 'domineering' nature. Dogs that are more dominant WILL place themselves in a higher positiont than less dominant dogs; that's why lower canines will kind of 'crouch' in front of a dominant dog, who will keep himself as 'tall' as he can...so positions on furniture can be a more 'dominant' position for an already dominant canine.

However, that said, I rather doubt your Gwen is a super dominant dog; rather a clumsy clumbering big girl, who simply needs to learn how to keep her "paws off".

If she is 'that' bad, and you fear her harming Buddy, make sure they are in your yard separetely until you can reliably call Gwen off of him.

neither of them display dominant actions towards us or each other really.

and gwen isn't that bad. she has her moments when buddy's excited that she thinks it's time to play. but we're definitly working on it. we actually started working on it about 3 days before the e-vet trip with buddy. and things were going well. but we're kinda at a stand still right now with buddy being kenneled. so i'm working soley with gwen outside, then taking buddy out just to go potty then it's right back in with him.

i guess i never really realized how bad it could get until this happened with buddy.

[Alpha]

I think that would just be plain confusing to dogs.

You treat the dogs equally. Whatever order ensues, it is what it is BUT: I don't allow my dogs to pick on one another or be generally pushy and bossy.

Sometimes Roxy will be bossy in play, but if Hades isn't scared or reacting in any other way other than play, than I let it go on. If she tries to boss him out of the way to snuggle or whatever, she gets pushed back. NOT because we're trying to make Hades the "dominant" dog, but that behaviour just isn't allowed.

So, I agree with others, I'd doubt if you could change the pecking order, and if you did you may run into some serious problems along the way.

It's a "training" issue. Leave their order be, but if there are certain behaviours that your not okay with, don't allow them.