[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by applesmom

I honestly don't have an answer for the peril of the pits and pit mixes.

But the question could be reversed; since for every pit or pit mix in a responsible home, there are hundreds or possibly even thousands that are born only to die in shelters.

Is it right to conclude that all those poor dogs deserve to be born only to die of abuse or neglect, just so the minority of responsible owners can have their pits?

I guess i'm not done...

first of all where do you get the term 'minority' from?

second of all

yes pit bulls and mixes make up a majority of shelter dogs. why is that? could it be that NEGATIVE ATTITUDES towards pit bulls have been picked up and spread around throughout the media and those folks who choose to get info from said media are being led to believe that all pit bulls should be feared? leading to more and more of the populace summarily rejecting the idea of owning a pit bull? leading to more and more pit bulls being passed over in shelters?

what to do?

teach bite prevention. teach proper dog handling. make it an elective in schools. when little boys who think they are bad*** come up to me and my dog talking fighting dog talk. I take a moment to let them know the true pit bull...the weight pull champion, the bomb detection dog, the sar dog, the therapy dog and the happy go lucky friend. a wise woman once said " ..teach the little ones, they can't choose a different path if you don't show them the way"

given the chance these dogs will blow your mind with their sweet nature and abilities. but they won't get that chance if negative attitudes are being embraced without a blink and spread around.

breed bans will NOT STOP FIGHTING DOG MEN! you take their pit bulls they will find another breed...they already are...

what will stop the horror and sadness of the average pit bull's life is to teach the TRUTH.

www.stopBSL.com

Responsible dog owners are turned off by BSL. Who wants to put up a fence, pay an extra license fee, purchase extra insurance, etc. just to own a dog that everyone discriminates against? Responsible owners are driven away from the breeds that need them the most. Rescue organizations and shelters are overburdened with perfectly good dogs that no one wants. For good owners with lower incomes, caring for a restricted-breed dog is too expensive considering the cost of extra insurance, special licensing fees, and so forth.
On the other hand, irresponsible owners and criminals could care less about BSL. They really don't care about the laws anyway. They already fail to license and vaccinate their dogs. They don't follow leash laws. Their dogs are unsocialized, untrained, and neglected. How can BSL change the way these owners act?
BSL treats all owners exactly the same, whether they are good, responsible owners or neglectful, irresponsible owners. What, then, would inspire a good owner to train their dog and teach it to be a good canine citizen? If the dog has to wear a muzzle on the streets and you have to buy extra insurance to keep it, there's no incentive to spend $100 plus "one hour per week for six weeks" at an obedience class (assuming the dog is even allowed in public).
--excerpt from stopBSL.com

please naysayers look at this site and feel free to ask me questions.....

bsl solves nothing.

[JDub]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

then why respond to this post at all?


but why post on this thread just to say you hate pits and don't trust them?

if I were a more suspicious person i'd suspect that of being troll-like...

A troll? Get a life.

I posted to chime in that I'm not surprised to see these discussions happening across the country. Perhaps its only the "mean" dog breed attacks that make the news....but....its all that most people hear about. Yes, with any dog it comes down to the owners. That said, I dont trust them anymore than you would trust a stranger approaching you on a dark street, late at night, if you were alone. Doesnt make it right or wrong...its just your preference.

edit....I found the pitbull on that link. On the 4th try. Interesting test.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by JDub

edit....I found the pitbull on that link. On the 4th try. Interesting test.

that's funny. I found it on my first.
if you know pits enough to be able to confidently say whether they are trustworthy dogs or not....why didn't you get it your first try?


...................

[ACampbell]

Agreed. It just hurts my feelings knowing that a soldier/firefighter/policeman, who loves his/her pitbulls and fights for the freedom or rights of those that will persecute it...will still fight for THEIR freedom and rights, even though they infringe upon his/her. Must be nice to be able to be a hypocrit and not realize it.

The sad part is, the DOG LOVERS (or people who say they do) that don't care if BSL passes because it "doesn't affect them" - well let me tell you, maybe it doesn't directly affect you today, and maybe also not tomorrow...but eventually, it probably will. This is a problem with more than just breed banning, but with a lot of things in America...people don't care because it doesn't affect THEM directly. What a selfish outlook on life, and what they may realize later on is, Wow, it does affect me, and now I"m going to stand up for what I believe is right...but by then, it could be too late.

So, if I go with Apples theory on banning breeds...they should ban Beagles, Bassets, Bloodhounds, and Retrievers in my area...there's tons of strays and they fill the shelters (in fact, my local shelters [3 of them] don't have a single Pit or Pit mix in them and I'd be more than willing to provide evidence of such) a lot of these dogs will be euthanized because nobody will claim them. So, should they ban Beagles/bassets/bloodhounds because they make up the major population problem in my area?
My answer: No.
Why: Because it infringes upon others to do as they please and have the kind of pet that they want to.

Pets overflowing at shelters is not a new problem, it would appear to me that Pitbulls are the new scapegoat for this. My grandmother and I were talking about this tonight, and when she was growing up, the GSD was the breed they witch hunted down, while Pitbulls were the American Hero, and they had a English Bulldog when she was growing up.
Goes to show you what the media can do and how much control they have over your daily life doesn't it?

[applesmom]

It's a horribly sad situation. No dog of any breed deserves to die simply because there aren't enough homes available.

Yet read the pit bull forums. They're not doing anything to protect the breed. All they do is complain about bias, yet they keep popping out puppies as if there weren't enough dying in shelters to provide enough pits for for every single person in a large city. Each and every breeder of those hundreds of litters denies that their breeding isn't part of the problem. Where is their sense of responsibility?

Let me ask another question. The owners in my area that allow their dogs to roam and have puppies every time they're in heat are never ever going to take responsibility for their dogs. It's been going on for years. The dogs can't be caught and have no tags so there's no way to fine the owners or catch and spay and neuter the dogs. What could or should be done about these dogs and their offspring?

[JDub]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

that's funny. I found it on my first.
if you know pits enough to be able to confidently say whether they are trustworthy dogs or not....why didn't you get it your first try?


...................

And you accuse ME of trolling?

I never said the pit is the only dog I dont trust. Some of those breeds were easy to spot...others, not so much. There are a number of dogs on that test that I would not trust around my kids.

Again...if you care to stay on topic, my initial comment was that given media coverage, I am not surprised people are talking about bans. Never said I agreed or disagreed with it...just that it didnt surprise me. Sorry if that got you so ruffled up.

[Willowy]

I don't think any breed should be banned. Of course, I have a Rott, who is the biggest mush in the world, wouldn't hurt a fly. And Rotts are often the target of BSL, though I don't know why...I've never met an aggressive Rott. Even on "Animal Cops", the Rotts are always big mushes.

But anyway.....I do not support breed bans in any way. I would, however, fully support certain restrictions on certain breeds, or even on dog ownership in general. Spay/neuter requirements, strict vaccination/licensing laws, restrictions on how the dog is contained (no chaining or tethering), etc. This should help some with the overbreeding issue (although I'm probably being naive ), and with some of the aggression issues. Of course, these laws are extremely difficult to enforce....but so are bans. I think pits are actually more common in areas where they are banned----having a banned animal automatically makes you "cool", ya know.

[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by applesmom

It's a horribly sad situation. No dog of any breed deserves to die simply because there aren't enough homes available.

Yet read the pit bull forums. They're not doing anything to protect the breed. All they do is complain about bias, yet they keep popping out puppies as if there weren't enough dying in shelters to provide enough pits for for every single person in a large city. Each and every breeder of those hundreds of litters denies that their breeding isn't part of the problem. Where is their sense of responsibility?

Let me ask another question. The owners in my area that allow their dogs to roam and have puppies every time they're in heat are never ever going to take responsibility for their dogs. It's been going on for years. The dogs can't be caught and have no tags so there's no way to fine the owners or catch and spay and neuter the dogs. What could or should be done about these dogs and their offspring?

About the first part. If they are reproducing litters of pups that aren't to "better" the breed, then on those forums all you have is BYB's and millers - which I doubt it's all of them.

As for what to do, that's where animal control steps in. Tranquilizer gun them, take them to shelters, the ones that can be salvaged rehome (after S/N) or if owners appear to claim them, fine the heck out of them. Put that "free S/N" to a practical use. Unfortunately for the ones that are bad tempered etc they would probably have to be euthanized...but I don't see as how it would bother you, considering if they put a ban in they will euthanize lots of dogs just because of how they look, not due to temperment.
I agree, dogs shouldn't be roaming the streets...but this isn't a pitbull isolated problem. Nor is it area specific...maybe your neighborhood, but not all. So is that fair to punish an entire breed because some idiots let their dogs run wild...no, that's like me saying you shouldn't have a hunting type dog because they are all stupid and all they care about is hunting? Would you say that's true? I won't even say that, and I had a beagle that when it was time to go home from hunting, ripped my hand open bad enough to need several stitches and ran off...yeah that's a real stable animal right there. Was he the exception to the rule? Maybe...but I think we should ban them just to make sure (not seriously).
So, since a <insert breed here> bit me once or I'm afraid of them then I should say "We should allow this ban to go into effect and I'll back it up 100% because I don't like them" - when say the dog that really bit me wasn't even a <insert breed> but was mixed breed that looked like one. I should be so gung-ho to ban all <insert breed> because another dog that was similar looking bit me or attacked someone I knew, or just because frankly, I don't trust them. So, hypothetically, my proposed ban goes into effect, and every dog that looks like or is a <insert> is forced out of my area. Was it my next door neighbors dog that bit me? Nope, but will he suffer for it if he has said breed? Yes. So I should be able to say I want all dogs of said breed gone out of my place of residence because I had or knew someone that had, or saw on TV that this breed of dog does this?
That's like saying "I'm allergic to cats, so nobody around me should own one because I don't like them"...or anything similar. I think that's pretty self-centered.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by JDub

And you accuse ME of trolling?

I never said the pit is the only dog I dont trust. Some of those breeds were easy to spot...others, not so much. There are a number of dogs on that test that I would not trust around my kids.

Again...if you care to stay on topic, my initial comment was that given media coverage, I am not surprised people are talking about bans. Never said I agreed or disagreed with it...just that it didnt surprise me. Sorry if that got you so ruffled up.

picture for a moment if your dog was the one in the crosshairs?

when people who were friendly and affectionate towards your dog suddenly start crossing the street when they see you coming and your dog whines in confusion because her friends are suddenly afraid of her?

what if you had to face the possibility of shelling out thousands of dollars to keep your dog? thousands of dollars that you DON'T HAVE?

what if you care for your dog, feed her the finest food available, spend and average of sixteen hours a day with her? what if you spend your nights shoveling dog**** to get credits at the vet to pay for her desperatly needed surgery and suddlenly they are gonna slap all these fees on you and you either pay or they take her away to be put in the hands of those who don't know her quirks and will likely not be able to understand them? or worse? what if they tell you your dog is 'dangerous' and must be put down with no trial? I have to uproot all that I have because of this. no matter what bsl they pass I will not be able to stay. we are an average income family. if they pass bsl I have to move or lose my dog. no MATTER WHAT.

I accept your apology and ask you to place yourself in my shoes..I am being discriminated against because I love my dog.


i'm sorry I got upset. I ask you to consider all the aspects of an issue before making comment.

no offence intended here but I felt that what you said was very derogatory. I work my tail off for these dogs. I am devoting the entirety of my life to helping this breed. everything I am goes into the effort of bringing an end to the pit bull emergency...they don't deserve to be maligned and they don't deserve indifference....same goes for everybody right? and everybody's dog? that is what america is supposed to be right?

now I hope I can be done with this thread....

Originally Posted by applesmom

It's a horribly sad situation. No dog of any breed deserves to die simply because there aren't enough homes available.

Yet read the pit bull forums. They're not doing anything to protect the breed. All they do is complain about bias, yet they keep popping out puppies as if there weren't enough dying in shelters to provide enough pits for for every single person in a large city. Each and every breeder of those hundreds of litters denies that their breeding isn't part of the problem. Where is their sense of responsibility?

Let me ask another question. The owners in my area that allow their dogs to roam and have puppies every time they're in heat are never ever going to take responsibility for their dogs. It's been going on for years. The dogs can't be caught and have no tags so there's no way to fine the owners or catch and spay and neuter the dogs. What could or should be done about these dogs and their offspring?

if there are no tags then there is no proof of ownership. the dogs can be taken. if the owners step forward in protest they can then be fined and penalized and believe it or not there are hundreds of fine folks working their tails off on this issue.

look!

www.pbrc.net

www.badrap.org

www.lawdogsusa.org

www.workingpitbull.com
(coincedentally this is a true responsible breeder. NO pups or stud services to the public)

there is ssssssooooooo much more! and more groups and pit bull rescues being started everyday.. there are just as many breeds that need serious help. why do you focus on just one?

[ACampbell]

**CHEER** For Zim. My sentiments exactly. We are a blue collar family. I don't have a lot of choice on where to live, I have to live where I can afford to. If they put in a ban tomorrow on my dogs I'm not sure if I could afford to move to somewhere more "friendly" - I'm almost certain I would not be able to, at least not without maxing out all my credit cards.
It's not MY dogs out running amok, biting people, fighting other dogs, making batches of puppies...but I will suffer for it and so will my dogs and my children. Maybe people don't think of what they are doing when they pass these bans...I don't want to see the heartbreak from my children because BOTH of our dogs would have to go...and it would be my fault because we don't have oodles of money to move. That makes me really sad especially to read from other supposed "dog lovers" how they are basically saying "I'd support a ban" which in term means "I don't care about you, your family, your dog, or how much any of you love those dogs" - for those of you that would take peoples dogs away, I hope you would have to see the heartache and sadness it causes those owners who truly love their pets - because the people fighting them and neglecting them don't care about them - they aren't the ones that banning a breed is going to hurt. Zim is right, walk a mile in our shoes and consider how you'd feel or your family would feel...anyone who has ever lost a dog knows how horrible it can be...but to have others that proclaim to love dogs be the ones helping to do it...that's just insulting.

[JDub]

Its a heated issue to be sure. Not sure what you can do really. Public education about the breed? Might help, but would be quickly offset the next time some less than stellar owner lets their mistreated dog act out.

I wish you all the best of luck.

[lovemygreys]

I don't personally care for pit bulls. Would never own one and don't really find them appealing. BUT, I am very much against BSL - it's just not right to penalize owners who's dogs have never done anything wrong.

I DO support severe penalties for owners who's dogs are dangerous and cause physical harm to people (or other dogs), as well as cause property damage.

[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I don't personally care for pit bulls. Would never own one and don't really find them appealing. BUT, I am very much against BSL - it's just not right to penalize owners who's dogs have never done anything wrong.

I DO support severe penalties for owners who's dogs are dangerous and cause physical harm to people (or other dogs), as well as cause property damage.

I agree. If my dog were to ever harm anyone (not likely but you never know) that didn't deserve it [other than someone breaking into my house etc] I would be the first person doing something about it. Unfortunately, a lot of dog owners, of any breed, will not do the same.
Makes me wonder if these are the same type of people that let their children run amok and do the "My child would never" when Sonny boy goes to jail?

[Roscosmom]

I find it interesting that so many pit owners seem absolutely shocked at the notion that their dog may potentially fall under a BSL. Is this not something you were aware of when taking on the breed? To me, it seems as though the chance they might be banned, or aggressive even, goes hand in hand when you decide on your breed of choice. You talk about educating the public, yet you all seem to have blinders on.

With that said, if DFW were to propose such a ban I would support it wholeheartedly because the number of bad owners out weighs the good owners by far around here. Just yesterday Rosco and I came this close to getting attacked by a pit early in the morning. No one was around and that dog literally burst through the wood at the bottom of his fence to come charging at us, barking. It took all of the courage in my soul to chase him away. I was ready to kill him..or die trying.

Two or three days ago in FW a pair of pits ripped the scalp off of a 3 year old girl, putting her in ICU where she remains. Her aunt, who owned the dogs, was also attacked.

You all say it's just a ploy by the media because these stories sell..but wouldn't it be an even greater, more interesting story, if it were a well known gentle breed? Wouldn't that cause shock throughout the community? Seems so to me. Whereas the pit attacks stories are just getting old. Enough to make one shake their head and wish something could be done about it.

[ACampbell]

The one we had up here was a "gentle" breed, on the news no less, a BEAGLE that bit someone and injured them...and the news said it was a Pitbull...I hardly find that fair. This isn't an isolated incident I'm sure where the pet has been mislabeled.
I hope for everyone elses sake their breed isn't next on the chopping block, at the same time, those who condemn pitbulls and promote bans should have to feel the loss of those of us who will suffer for your selfishness...you act like a ban is going to stop the BAD owners from owning them...no, it just makes the GOOD owners lose their pets because those will be the only people that abide by it.
Honestly, when I got Smokey, I had no idea of BSL...it was never brought up in my area...I didn't know about it until I got on here.
When I got Lily, I got her because I LOVE the breed - not because I want a "bad ass" dog that is going to bite anybody - just the contrary.

So, be forewarned, those of you that would vote against my dog, when it's your breed that is being persecuted and blamed for every bite in the US...all I'm going to say is "I told you so" - but I wouldn't vote for you to lose your beloved pet...that kind of mentality just makes me ashamed that you say you love dogs. I didn't know that love was breed specific.

[Roscosmom]

Originally Posted by ACampbell

I didn't know that love was breed specific.

Really? Because it usually is regarding dogs. With me anyway, and I'm sure a lot of other people as well. You wouldn't see me shed a tear if they banned chihuahuas (for example, no offense to chihuahua owners, mind you)

[ACampbell]

Well with your signature picture, it doesn't surprise me at all.
There's more people than just you around though, look how many people work in shelters...do you think they do it because "Oh I just love Yorkies so I'm going to save them all by working in the local SPCA shelter, even though they might only get 1 a year"? No, they do it because what humans, irresponsible humans, do to animals.
If there was no such thing as an irresponsible owner, animal control would be out of a job - how unfortunate that this could only happen in a perfect world. But it's irresponsible owners that cause dogs to run wild, not be leashed, injure people, etc. I notice you avoid the fact that a responsible owner would be punished because they own the breed...even though we are powerless to stop the "bad" people from doing God knows what with their dogs.

Like I mentioned in a few previous posts, before it was the GSD, the Rottweiler (still the Rotti in some cases) the Doberman Pinscher...and the Pitbull was the all American dog...so, who's breed is next? Will it be Great Danes or Labradors? Maybe Boxers or Huskies.
Politicians or concerned citizens think this is an answer, but how does it solve anything? Ok, so all responsible owners must relinquish their dogs or leave. What is this, Nazi Germany? History proves, even though something is illegal, that doesn't mean people won't do it or have it. It goes with the slogan for gun control -
If guns are made illegal, only criminals will own them.

If pitbulls are banned, only criminals will own them.

Should I, or anyone else, be a criminal because we love our pet and love the breed?
If it was YOUR dog, would you want to be a criminal because you love heelers?

[Curbside Prophet]

I haven't read too much of this thread so I apologize if I repeat anything that's been said but...

I have yet to make a conclusion that the problems with pits is a dog issue warranting a law. There seems to be a lot of scapegoating on both sides of the issue. Those who villainize the animal in the media and those who try to distance themselves from the responsibility of dog ownership.

But... If you've read Janis Bradley's book Dogs Bite But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous, here's an interesting conclusion Janis makes...you are 5 times more likely to die from a lightning strike than you are from a dog. She goes on to compare dogs to a lot more favorable items, yet, how many playground equipment laws are we familiar with? How many 10 gallon bucket laws are being drawn up? Have a bicycle? We should make bike laws too. Christmas ornaments? We should ban those too.

It all gets a bit ridiculous especially when the rates of dog incidents is NOT trending upward as the media would like to make it seem.

Do I think bully dogs should be owned by knowledgeable owners of the breed...absolutely. But this is not different than with any other breed. Do I think pits are dangerous more so than any other dog...that hasn't been my experience and chances are it won't be yours either.

ETA: One thing to consider too...why our culture finds it necessary to create BSL laws and not water bucket laws...you have to remember that we humans were once prey for some beasts so we have a long evolution of being fear equipped in regards to animals. Not so much with buckets. That's why you're more likely to see a news report on how a dog killed a child but not of a bucket killing a child. It's in our nature.

[Mr Pooch]

Originally Posted by applesmom

I honestly don't have an answer for the peril of the pits and pit mixes.

But the question could be reversed; since for every pit or pit mix in a responsible home, there are hundreds or possibly even thousands that are born only to die in shelters.

Is it right to conclude that all those poor dogs deserve to be born only to die of abuse or neglect, just so the minority of responsible owners can have their pits?

This is a sad but true post.
Currently the same thing is happening to the SBT in my country.

There are many responsible owners but for each one there is hundreds of VERY iresponsible ones.

Im Anti BSL all the way but if we dont start taking action as responsible owners to erase the bad ones then we may as well stay silent.

Zim good on you for highlighting this plight though,hope the Pit doesnt get banned.

Originally Posted by Darkmoon

The pit bull breed is FANTASTIC, I love the breed and I will fight for it all the way.

So true Darkmoon it is a fantastic breed.
What isnt fantastic is the ammount of idiots who own them for all the wrong reasons.

Hopefully one day it'll only be responsible people like DF Pit owners who have Pits.

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I don't personally care for pit bulls. Would never own one and don't really find them appealing. BUT, I am very much against BSL - it's just not right to penalize owners who's dogs have never done anything wrong.

I DO support severe penalties for owners who's dogs are dangerous and cause physical harm to people (or other dogs), as well as cause property damage.

Excelent post LMG

Originally Posted by Roscosmom

Really? Because it usually is regarding dogs. With me anyway, and I'm sure a lot of other people as well. You wouldn't see me shed a tear if they banned chihuahuas (for example, no offense to chihuahua owners, mind you)

You are quite cold regarding breeds you dont like but everyones entitled to an opinion.

[ACampbell]

Good post Mr. Pooch.
What people don't seem to realize is, this isn't just a "pitbull" issue. Lots of breeds are going on the chopping block, especially if you look at some of the proposed examples of what they are trying to pass. Some of them are so stupid it's unreal...one list even had the Pug mentioned...so sitting there and saying "It doesn't affect me" is like an ostrich with their head in the sand...

Here's something interesting...a Dangerous Dogs list for Minneapolis -
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/anim...sDogs_List.asp
Notice, the only "pitbull" type dog that is considered "dangerous" - look at the incident that landed them there...Killed a domestic cat.
Now look at some of the others, same story - but then, look again at the ones that BIT PEOPLE...lets see the breed list
A Chocolate Lab
Belgian Shepherd
Mixed breed noted as an Akita/mastiff cross
Mixed breed noted as pointer/BC
GSD

Hmmmmm, granted it's a small list. But the only "pitbull" mentioned is on there because he killed a cat. If you want to read statistics into that information, 0/5 dogs mentioned that bit people, were pitbulls.