Let's talk about Genetics!

ACampbell · 05-12-2008, 03:56 PM

Ok, I need some kind of reference because now I am curious! (I swear I'll hit the library but don't want to read 5 books that will tell me nothing!)
My new puppy is a black brindle (as is her father) her mother is a red nose (typical red and white coloring) as was another in her litter. Ok, so hypothetically, IF (don't jump the gun here) she were to be bred eventually (not likely)...what colors could she possibly throw? I am not very up on dog genetics, I could tell you about horses but I don't think the same rules apply, lol.
So, if dog A is a black brindle
and dog B is say red fawn in color
what are the possible outcomes (approximately) that these two could produce? I'm sure someone like Spicy will definetely have an idea on this or at least a good book I can reference my curiousity toward. The brindle confuses me to say the very least. Is it a recessive or dominant gene? Do both parents have to carry said gene or can it just be a misnomer and happens? Can it happen with two solid colored dogs?

Spicy1_VV · 05-12-2008, 04:30 PM

Hopefully no one will jump on you. I hate careless breeding but lots of what if color questions are asked just in good fun and people don't get it.

I'm really sorry that I might not be a super help as you'd thought. I really can't tell you because it depends on what dog she is bred to and also what genes she is carrying. The color the pups come out depend on what genes the parents have and pass on.

Brindle is dominant. So at least one parent must be brindle to produce brindle pups. However the brindle is not always visible so you might not know that one parent is brindle until they've had pups together. 2 non brindles can not produce brindle, but a dog that looks solid but is actually brindle could obviously produced it.

So for one your female could and probably would produce brindle pups. Then what other color depends on the sire. If he is fawn perhaps some fawns. If he carries genes for red nose then some red nose probably only about a 4th of the litter, but half would also be carriers. The remainders would not be. Whatever coat color still dependent on the genes red nose with fawn, red or brindle coat. Do they have genes for pie bald? Because you could always get some that are mostly white with patches of other color, again those could be red nose if the sire also has the genes. You could get tan or creme. You could get brown. I think you'll see some with black mask depending on your female and the sire too. Some might come out looking black or seal.

RRM_Mom08 · 05-12-2008, 04:32 PM

Ok I am not by and far an expert at all but I do know that with my breed Boston terriers the best and most definite way is to have DNA analyasis done. I am not sure what breed you have.

It is understood that all brindle dogs are either KBR/KBR or KBR/k Brindleing is actually part of the K locus.

To determine what type of puppies she would throw you would have to have her DNA/Genetic backround test done and also match her to the male that compliment her (prefer that he had his DNA done so you could match markers for desired colors)

Spicy1_VV · 05-12-2008, 04:36 PM

I've always been curious in the DNA typing. But that really takes the fun and surprise out of it even more, because it gives you an even better idea of what you will get.

I say that knowing what bloodlines she is predominately from will also help? Because many are known to consistently only produce a few colors while other colors are not seen. This could be done with the sire as well.

There are lots of other things that could pop up blue, tri color, ect just depends on what genes they have behind them and which lines they come from.

borzoimom · 05-12-2008, 04:42 PM

Depends on the breed as far as what color is dominant and which are recessive. I wanted to post some links but really its not hard to find in the breed you are talking about. In most breeds marked breeds ( ie brindle) is recessive to solid colors ( say the red)- but doesnt hold for all breeds..

tirluc · 05-12-2008, 04:49 PM

when i bred Tir (bl/wh), she was bred to a blue merle whose father was a blue merle and mother was a tri w/ tri sire and bl/wh mother......on Tir's side her sire is bl/white, and either her mother is tri/ticked and grandmother bl/wh or the other way around (i can't remember right off)......out of the litter we got 1 blue merle, 1 tri, 1 tri/ticked, 1 bl/wh ticked, 1 wh/blue merle tri, 1 traditional bl/wh and 1 "cow" patterned bl/wh.........so, the posibilities are endless when you are talking the dogs w/ diverse colours, but if you know the background you can guess pretty well.....i was fairly certain on the colours just not as much white in the pups as i got (found out Mom is a cryptic merle herself)

Pai · 05-12-2008, 05:40 PM

I know that Pawsitive ID is a service that, including testing for several genetic diseases, also will tell you what colors your dog carries the genes for. It's pretty neat!

ACampbell · 05-12-2008, 05:48 PM

I know a bit about DNA typing, but for a dog I'm not going to breed it seems silly to do something that extreme

Dog genetics are tough! Well at least compared to horses (but maybe that's me because I'm just more familiar with horses)

Spicy1_VV · 05-12-2008, 06:06 PM

Yeah its probably because you know horse genetics. I'm somewhat lost when it comes to them. I've read on it some but didn't really retain it.

Here are some breeding examples for you that I know of that involve the APBT, mostly picked the ones with brindle parent.

Brindle x Brindle - various brindles and a buckskin/black mask

Red red nose x Brindle - various Brindles, brown, tan, and some pied brindles

Fawn x Brindle - a Brindle, a Red (red nose), others were Buckskin and Dark Fawn

White/Black x Red Brindle red nose - Seal/white, Red Brindles (red and black nose), White/Black, white/brindle, liver/white red nose, some w/ black mask

Seal x Red Brindle red nose - Red Brindles, Seal/White, White/Chocolate (red nose), Red/White (red nose)

this is another similar

Seal/white x Red Brindle red nose - white, red/white red nose, red brindle red nose, seal/white, brindle/white, white/brindle

Fawn red nose x white/brindle - white, tan/white

Dark buckskin/black mask x Brindle - various Brindles, Red, Dark fawn, buckskin most w/ black mask

Red brindle red nose x light chocolate red nose - buckskin red nose, chocolate/tan red nose, chocolate red nose

Fawn red nose x Chocolate Brindle red nose - Chocolate red nose, Chocolate Brindle red nose

Brindle x Red sable red nose - black/tan (think all had brindle points), sable, brown, white/brindle

Buckskin x Brindle - blue, red brindle, other brindles, buckskin, some pied

Dark red/brown x white/brindle - white/buckskin, white/red, brindle/white, brindle, buckskin

Black brindle x red red nose - seal (some seal/black brindle), a buckskin, a buckskin brindle, a fawn red nose

Here is breedings that really show how much the dogs lines and pedigree can factor in....

Same male (both 8 pups)
Red red nose x buckskin - browns, a buckskin, a fawn (red nose)
Red red nose x buckskin 2 - fawn (red nose), light red (red nose), deep red (red nose), 2 buckskin, dark fawn, buckskin (red nose) red (red nose)

Pai · 05-12-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampbell

I know a bit about DNA typing, but for a dog I'm not going to breed it seems silly to do something that extreme

Dog genetics are tough! Well at least compared to horses (but maybe that's me because I'm just more familiar with horses)

I'm a big biology nerd, so I'd totally do that kind of thing just for my own amusement, LOL!

ACampbell · 05-12-2008, 06:21 PM

I can't pass 5th grade math or science to save my butt...for some reason it didn't stick except the genetics (probably because it interests me)
It seems there can be a wide variety of colors involved and it's a catch 22 to see whats lying beneath the skin.
It's like with horses, you can breed 2 horses that are black - you will come up with either a black or a chesnut colored foal...no if's, and's or but's about it. Seems like we aren't working with the same set of rules...mother nature is cruel to confuse me so! I think I'm going to have to get a "Dog Genetics for Dummies" version!

Chicster · 05-12-2008, 06:31 PM

Oh this kind of stuff fascinates me!

I'm always stumped by all the color combinations/outcomes that Poms come in.

RRM_Mom08 · 05-12-2008, 06:40 PM

I have bostons and the color combo's can get wild..

Dogstar · 05-12-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pai

I know that Pawsitive ID is a service that, including testing for several genetic diseases, also will tell you what colors your dog carries the genes for. It's pretty neat!

I'd actually recommend using another company- Pawsitive ID's gotten REALLY bad reviews from the Eskie folks I know who have used their testing. You can get colortesting done in a number of places, and the DNA testing you'll need depends on your breed.

Pai · 05-12-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogstar

I'd actually recommend using another company- Pawsitive ID's gotten REALLY bad reviews from the Eskie folks I know who have used their testing. You can get colortesting done in a number of places, and the DNA testing you'll need depends on your breed.

Oh? What happened?

At the Crestie forum I go to, so far the complaints have been it's taken FOREVER to get results. The company is saying they are swamped because they misjudged the popularity of their service. Only one person there has got their results back so far, but they seemed to be happy with it aside from the delay.

RRM_Mom08 · 05-12-2008, 08:54 PM

If anyone has any suggestions for DNA testing labs I would love links and such..