[sitnud]

I have a 3 year old vizsla female that I need to try and correct some things with her. I would ask on the sporting dog forums that I am a member of but most of those people are total elitists and would say to get rid of her and start over.

OK here is the deal. We have moved 3 times in the last 2 years due to my job. This has meant that she has spent a ton of time in her crate and not much time out in the house and such due to house breaking issues. I quit the place that was having me move so much so that at least is corrected. She is in the house 100% and out of her crate now.

She is a big baby. She is great in the house though a little too into pushing her way into a really submissive position and such. In the back yard she is full of life, she will run, play, retrieve, and everything else. She has spent time in the show ring and again she is full of life at the shows. Take her out of either of those elements and she gets really soft on me. When we go for walks her tail is always down and usually her head as well. When we try to do some field work she only makes half an effort even though she is from a straight DC type of bloodline. She likes birds but doesn't get nuts over them. Any sort of correction for behavior and she sulks and is then overly obedient. Outside of the back yard it takes a ton of work to get her fired up to retrieve anything. 2 years ago she would bust into lake erie like it was nothing but now she won't go in the water past her elbows.

I need to toughen her up and get her self confidence to a 12 on a scale of 1-10. What is the best way to go about this? I am in a fairly dog unfriendly area. About the only place she can go with me is Petsmart which she enjoys. Her pedigree says she should be eating barbed wire for breakfast but I am really afraid that the constant moving has ruined her. I have an 8 year old male as well who is over the top with confidence and even with him will she rarely get fired up.

Any suggestions on helping her to not be such a wimp about everything?

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by sitnud

I have a 3 year old vizsla female that I need to try and correct some things with her. I would ask on the sporting dog forums that I am a member of but most of those people are total elitists and would say to get rid of her and start over.

OK here is the deal. We have moved 3 times in the last 2 years due to my job. This has meant that she has spent a ton of time in her crate and not much time out in the house and such due to house breaking issues. I quit the place that was having me move so much so that at least is corrected. She is in the house 100% and out of her crate now.

She is a big baby. She is great in the house though a little too into pushing her way into a really submissive position and such. In the back yard she is full of life, she will run, play, retrieve, and everything else. She has spent time in the show ring and again she is full of life at the shows. Take her out of either of those elements and she gets really soft on me. When we go for walks her tail is always down and usually her head as well. When we try to do some field work she only makes half an effort even though she is from a straight DC type of bloodline. She likes birds but doesn't get nuts over them. Any sort of correction for behavior and she sulks and is then overly obedient. Outside of the back yard it takes a ton of work to get her fired up to retrieve anything. 2 years ago she would bust into lake erie like it was nothing but now she won't go in the water past her elbows.

I need to toughen her up and get her self confidence to a 12 on a scale of 1-10. What is the best way to go about this? I am in a fairly dog unfriendly area. About the only place she can go with me is Petsmart which she enjoys. Her pedigree says she should be eating barbed wire for breakfast but I am really afraid that the constant moving has ruined her. I have an 8 year old male as well who is over the top with confidence and even with him will she rarely get fired up.

Any suggestions on helping her to not be such a wimp about everything?

I wonder what her temperament test said because I am not sure that you can take a very very soft dog and turn them into a really confident dog.... I dont think the moving did it .... dogs arent people and they just want to be with their people they don't generally get attached to things and places... of course its an adjustment to move but not in teh same way as for us.... however, I have found that a soft puppy is a soft dog.... and while you can work with them and make them more confident in specific places that they go alot, I dont think you can change that basic temperament....

also keep in mind that pedigree is only half the battle.... I have a very very outgoing girl but in her litter she had some very confident pups and very soft ones.... I guess I am wondering if your breeder knew you wanted to do field work and some of that stuff.

one thing that is known to improve confidence is agility

and I would stop with teh corrections..... when you take a fearful dog and correct them.... then you have taught them that they have a reason to be fearful.... I would start with some clicker training as that teaches your dog that thinking is a good thing.... and trying new things gets her rewards..... I would also maybe try a little agility with a clicker.... and get her acting more independantly

I would not correct her.... I have seven retrievers here.... some are softer than others but the flat coats are very soft as a general rule and I can watch them shut down if they are corrected.... it just doesn't work for a soft dog....
you have to find other ways and positive reinforcement is the best way to deal with a soft dog....

good luck
s

[sitnud]

When she was a pup, she was a monster of an animal. There was definitely no issues then but now there definitely seems to be. I've pretty much completely backed off from corrections with her except for important stuff. We have been taking walks with her on a 20' check cord so she has some freedom to explore while I can still reel her in if I need to.

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by sitnud

Any sort of correction for behavior and she sulks and is then overly obedient. Outside of the back yard it takes a ton of work to get her fired up to retrieve anything. 2 years ago she would bust into lake erie like it was nothing but now she won't go in the water past her elbows.

Soft and fearful are two different things. When someone describes a soft dog, they are super sensitive to handler's corrections. I have seen soft dogs who are doing personal protection give their HARDEST bite than "hard" dogs. It was no surprising because they want to impress their handlers. When they get praise from their handlers, they did something to make their handlers proud by getting a lot of praise.

To me, it sounds like your dog is being fearful and insecure. Did something happen? Were there any changes in your house? Like divorce, broke up boyfriend, or did somebody move out?

I need to toughen her up and get her self confidence to a 12 on a scale of 1-10. What is the best way to go about this?

It depends on how much prey drive she has. I would play tug of war with her. Of course, let her win often so she can build up her confident.

I am in a fairly dog unfriendly area. About the only place she can go with me is Petsmart which she enjoys.

There are other place you can go to, such as local park. What about going out for a walk in the park? I can't see how anywhere not be dog friendly area.

[sitnud]

There were two major things that have happened... Our entire family has moved 3 times in the last 2 years as I previously stated. This meant a new state 2 of the times and new houses. It seemed like we couldn't get her reliably house broke before moving again and then we had to start over in the new place(she was being stubborn). This meant for the last 2-3 years she has spent a ton of time in a crate. She is 100% reliable now so she spends little to no time in a crate. The other thing that did happen to her when she was about 18 months old we were walking along the road when some kids who were speeding of course swerved into her. Thank god I got her pulled out of the way on time but it gave both of us a heck of a scare.(I should say kid who will no longer have a drivers license until he is 18)...

I will admit that she could have been socialized better but she is not fearful of other dogs or people nor is she aggressive. We have been taking long walks in the developments around where we live on a long line so she can explore. That seems to help some but she usually is not having a ton of fun doing it.

Playing tug is most definitely out for her. That is the #1 no no with a big dog. We have been working on her prey drive with homing pigeons so far. I am waiting to get some quail. I am also trying to get my hands on a couple ducks that we can do some work with in the respect as well. I know getting her prey drive up like that will help in the field but not sure if it will help in the other areas as well. Her prey drive is really high when I lead her into the scent of the bird. She hasn't figured out how to find them on her own all that well but once her drive is high enough she will do it.

[wvasko]

I started with Weimeraners, moved on to GSPs Field Trials. National circuit, Minor circuit English Pointer trials. No trialing of retrievers but I have trained all, even a Portuguese Water Dog, obedience and water work for all. Brittanies, GWPs, Gordon Setter, Irish Setter, English Setters, Vizla, I think you get the point. The Vizla generally is known to be a tad soft when compared to the other bird dog breeds. Your explanation of the problem makes me think something else has happened to this dog. Then the walking of the dog with a 20 ft lead, if this is city walking that's as it should be, have you taken her out in the country and turned her loose. If not why not. When asked how to start a bird dog puppy, I would tell the owners they need a roll of duct tape. First thing to do is tear a piece of tape off and use it to cover their mouth and then take a walk in the wild and let your puppy run and learn and have fun with no interference from the owner. I would take your dog back to puppy-hood. My gut feeling is either you or somebody has gotten tough with this dog and overloaded her. The complete change from the wild water dog and in general puppy to now is just too much of a change.
I'm wondering if your male was much tougher dog and methods that were used on him through the 5 yrs previous to your new female did not work on female. You mentioned her pedigree, well maybe she doesn't read. You said something about the show ring, were you the handler. If not that tells me the show handler has not misused your dog in any way and she has confidence in the handler but not you. I also wonder about what kind of pressure was put on her with the housebreaking issues you had. I would never say get rid of her, keep her and love her. Want tough go buy a Chesapeake Retriever it probably won't be a wimp even with tough corrections.
My Opinion Only

[sitnud]

Yes I get her out in the country every chance I can get. I turn her loose and only say something if I need to turn her, break her distraction from a field mouse, keep her out of trouble. I have seen her get out several hundred yards and in other terrain work within 50.

I handled her in the ring. It was my first time as well but took some classes. I am planning on finishing her out this spring.

One thing is sure. I have learned a ton of patience working with her. I was probably expecting too much from her early on though she now looks to me for direction a lot. It was frustrating trying to teach her something since she would just do it right immediately so there was nothing to enforce with her and later it proved difficult if she tried to rebel. I have softened up on her a ton since last summer and am using much more positive training methods. My male is a hard headed boy. I've had to pick him up by the collar and the skin on his legs and put him where he is supposed to be on many occasions. A dog sitting right in between these two would be about perfect.

When I would try methods with her that I used on him I would quickly get worried that I was screwing up and abandon it. I'm sure that has lent confusion to the equation in healthy doses.

I guess I need some ideas about how to go back to puppyhood type stuff with an older dog. Should I continue the walks and get her out in the country and continue with the bird stuff? I have already backed up and let her start breaking on a flush and chasing the birds to get her good and fired up but that was very recent so I am unsure how it will turn out.

[Love's_Sophie]

I play "tug" with my Border mix...no 'small' dog, she is 54 lbs...not huge, but not tiny that's forsure. The key is training them to release with a cue word like "out" or "drop it"...I taught those two cues and made sure they were solid before teaching her to "tug" on cue...which isn't hard, because WHAT dog doesn't like to play tug? Just because you train her to play tug, doesn't mean she will have a hard mouth regarding birds Simply because you are giving her a cue to do so with a rope.

[Xeph]

Playing tug is most definitely out for her. That is the #1 no no with a big dog.

Tell that to my 86# GSD ;-) He wholeheartedly disagrees. Tug is a great way to build confidence.

I do have to say though, learning what I have about Vizslas, while I wouldn't get rid of this bitch, it doesn't sound like she's hunting material.

The pedigree of a dog shows what you SHOULD expect and what you MAY get. A pedigree does not show you what you WILL get. Your dog's soft temperament could be a throwback to way way wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the pedigree and it just happened to crop up.

Temperament is genetic. It can be influenced by training and environment, but said training and environment only masks or bolsters what is already there.

If my dog's pedigree is full of sharp dogs, even if he isn't displaying the tendency of sharpness, there is a high probability that he in fact is a sharp dog...the trigger just hasn't been tripped yet.

If this is a bitch you planned on breeding, I personally wouldn't, mostly because of the way you describe her enthusiasm about birds. That's just my opinion though.

[Love's_Sophie]

Maybe she doesn't have the drive necessary to really be a bird dog either...if she is that soft and fearful, she may not ever be the 'fired' up type of dog you desire for trialing in the field.

As someone else mentioned though, agility is a great way to improve communication and trust...you work agility off lead, so communication has to be 'impeccable' or you and your dog will both be left confused! I think agility may just be a way to get your girl a bit more confident though, and possibly improve your own communication and technique skills with her. It's also alot of fun.

[wvasko]

sitnud

Going back to puppy-hood is basically simple it means bird dog puppies can do no wrong. That's what the duct tape across mouth is for, keep mouth shut.

You mention something about letting dog chase birds after birds are flushed, this tells me for whatever reason you were evidently not letting her chase birds, trying to steady her up she find bird, points bird, then you flush and dog does not chase. Then you mentioned ducks in the same paragraph. It sounds to me like you have fell for the continental breed B**l-S**t Weimeraners, Vizlas GSPs GWPs etc were suppose to be used on upland game and duck retrieves according to the breed books. I think they were even suppose to walk on water. In Germany they many years ago used some of these dogs on deer and wild boar etc etc etc etc. There has been many a fine young bird dog ruined trying to steady them too early. Instead of pointing a bird when scenting they would blink the whole area and leave bird area completely. Now if you are going to use pigeons catch them in a farmer's barn at night (or buy them) and when planting the birds you want to dizzy them lightly not put them completely to sleep. I don't care if your dog runs up smells bird rushes in and catches the bird, (if she does and brings it to you give her a hug.) the ideal setup with a bird planted properly is bird flushes before dog can grab and chases bird plumb out of sight. Don't worry your not going to lose your dog. She will come back looking for you and even a whistle can be used so she can hear you and find you(so you are not using your voice). Most Vizla do not have a large ranging attitude, most of the time you can't get them out from under your feet. Please I am not knocking the breed as there are very good Vizla bird dogs out there. I am just generalizing. With your problem you have to release pressure and go back, build up desire before you can go forward.
Good Luck

[sitnud]

Don't get me wrong... she hunts and hunts well she just is a bit slow to get started until she finds a bird. She will chase and chase hard when one is in the air. She needs to develop her search much better though since she spent a lot of time where there were no birds, she doesn't understand that every field should be assumed to have birds in it. The problem that I had when I went to steady her up was that she is super obedient. If I would stop the chase would get this "if you don't want me to have it I won't try" attitude. If I don't have a hand on the cord she is puts up a great chase. Maybe this is an experience thing for her. I would like if she was a little more hard headed about it so I had something that I could consistently steady up. She relies on me for direction more than I want for sure. Maybe I should let her become a complete hooligan for a while?

I did fall for the continental bs as you called it. I hunt early season ducks with my male quite often actually. A lot of people do and in Hungary they are required to hunt upland, ducks, and blood track as part of their hunting tests before they can be bred. I don't know about the German dogs but vizslas really have it in their blood. The idea behind letting her chase ducks is that you want them to chase ducks that can't fly since in a hunting situation those would be a cripple. A good way to build prey drive while not instilling bad habits on upland birds.

She used to trust herself very well. In fact she used to be a bear to handle since she would do a lot of what she wanted without paying attention to anyone else. She has lost a lot of independence that she used to have and I know she doesn't like it. When she is being "obedient" it is with her head and tail down. I need to get her back to being a wild child without making her impossible to handle in the house. Crap I wonder if that is what it is. Before the latest move she would spend nearly all day in her crate and then again over night. When she got out she was crazy. When we moved(last June) the last time we worked her out of the crate by making sure she was 100% house broke. No pressure in that just taking her out a lot and praising when she did the right thing. She then came into heat and she had to be crated for a few weeks and then she has been back in the house full time for the last few months. She has been disciplined over stealing food from the kids and stuff. I probably should talk to my wife about how she has been handling it during the day. I might want to just crate her during meal times to avoid any undue pressure for now. Last fall she would run big in the fields and work hard now this spring she isn't and thats what has changed. Being that it has been a pretty short term thing, do you think I can turn it back around?

[Love's_Sophie]

If you were to find the trigger; like say maybe your posture, or voice change, or something else that shuts her down, then, yes, I think you could turn her around.

To me, when you are discribing her 'super obedient' state...it's a fearful state; not an obedient one...she is afraid of what is going to come next, so she shuts down, and performs like a robot.

And on one hand you said that she's always been soft, and now you tell us she "was" a bear...???

I suggest training classes..obedience, and trial training courses...maybe with some help you can discover the trigger and help her out.

[wvasko]

Ok
The idea behind letting her chase ducks is that you want them to chase ducks that can't fly since in a hunting situation those would be a cripple. A good way to build prey drive while not instilling bad habits on upland birds.

Trust me I know why the duck chasing is a necessary job. Here in the states duck hunting season is through some cold icy conditions, your Labrador who has a much better coat setup for the cold water etc. hunted a lot usually becomes arthritic at age 7. A Vizla has no coat to speak of, the wealthy people of the world have no problem with early burnout of their dogs they PTS them and buy a new one. The Weimies had a water certification test that we had thrown out in the early 60s for the same reasons. Now all that being said you hunt your dog as you will, that's a personal decision and not my job to get involved with that part of it.

I did fall for the continental bs as you called it. I hunt early season ducks with my male quite often actually. A lot of people do and in Hungary they are required to hunt upland, ducks, and blood track as part of their hunting tests before they can be bred.

On the above, Hey, you are not in Hungary.

Last fall she would run big in the fields and work hard now this spring she isn't and thats what has changed. Being that it has been a pretty short term thing, do you think I can turn it back around?

I'm not sure problems in the home carry over to the field end but I'm not there to see the corrections etc. You see when you work a hard headed dog it's easy as you can make mistakes and dog will fight his way through whatever you toss at her. It's like catching a 10 lb fish/dog with a cable. if you hook em your not going to lose em, A soft dog is like catching a 50 lb fish/dog with a 1 lb test line jerk a tad too hard and you lose the dog/fish. If she were my dog I would make sure no corrections occurred in the field and a consistent Obed. program in home with some reward for good work.

In closing please remember we have 2 fools here, I'm giving you advice on a dog I don't know and you are listening to me. You're there I'm here.